Northern Montana TV Antenna Advice Needed

rlrobinhood · 23-Apr-2010, 4:50 AM

Hi all,

First time I have visited this site. Lots of good information here. I was hoping you could give me some advice.

I just moved to a small town in northern MT called Chester, zipcode 59522. I currently have a small antenna that is mounted on a short mast about 12 feet off the ground. The antenna is only about 24" long. See the attached picture. It also has a small box mounted below it which I think is part of an ampliphier, but there is nothing else in the antenna system. See the attached picture.

I only have one TV set up to this antenna and it is about 50' from the antenna. I recently replaced all the wire from antenna to tv with coaxial cable.

The current antenna system does not work the best. I can only get a few channels and they are almost too fuzzy to watch. If I could improve these channels, it would be great. If I could also pick up a FOX station, I would be estatic!

From what I understand from the locals, most of the TV signal boosters are on some hills to the north of me. I am willing to buy a new antenna, booster/ampliphier, what ever it takes to improve my current condition. If you could help me out I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks you very much.

Chandra

Tigerbangs · 23-Apr-2010, 2:32 PM

This took a LOT of research, but I found out what was happening in your area: there are a number of analog translator channels licensed to Joplin that are on a mountaintop about 18 miles from you. I can't tell exactly how strong they are because I don't have your exact location, but this is what's available from the mountaintop:

channel 51 -KFBB- ABC
channel 48 -KRTV-CBS
channel 36 -CISA- Global-Canada
channel 38 -CBC English, Canada
channel 40 -PBS-Montana
channel 42 -KTGF-FOX

If you can get me your exact coordinates, preferably in decimal format, I can tell you what antenna and amplifier to use, and exactly where to aim your antenna.

As an alternative, you can enter your information on this form, and post the results in a reply:

http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?opti...pper&Itemid=29

Tower Guy · 24-Apr-2010, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rlrobinhood

I recently replaced all the wire from antenna to tv with coaxial cable.

It looks like the amplifier than you have can't get power from the power supply. In most cases a balun is not designed to pass power. I'd start with a new preamp.

To figure out which preamp is optimum, please post your TV fool report.

rlrobinhood · 26-Apr-2010, 5:02 AM

Hi guys,

Sorry it took so long to get back. I had to borrow a friends GPS unit to get my coordinates. I actually live between two towns, Chester and Joplin. I put my coordinates in the TVFOOL Report and it is attached.

Tower Guy mentioned a preamplifier and not getting power, etc. I'm pretty stupid when it comes to this stuff, so you'll have to baby step me through it. I'd assume that whatever that box thing is, it doesn't work. Its pretty old.

The antenna may/maynot work. I don't know if they go bad over time or what.

So, with all this being said, what do I need to improve my current channels (those listed by Tigerbangs) and what can I do to get a Fox channel? In the attached report, I see that there is a channel 45 (FOX) to the south.

Thanks again Tower Guy and Tigerbangs!!

tvlurker · 26-Apr-2010, 4:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rlrobinhood

Hi guys,

Sorry it took so long to get back. I had to borrow a friends GPS unit to get my coordinates. I actually live between two towns, Chester and Joplin. I put my coordinates in the TVFOOL Report and it is attached.

Tower Guy mentioned a preamplifier and not getting power, etc. I'm pretty stupid when it comes to this stuff, so you'll have to baby step me through it. I'd assume that whatever that box thing is, it doesn't work. Its pretty old.

The antenna may/maynot work. I don't know if they go bad over time or what.

So, with all this being said, what do I need to improve my current channels (those listed by Tigerbangs) and what can I do to get a Fox channel? In the attached report, I see that there is a channel 45 (FOX) to the south.

Thanks again Tower Guy and Tigerbangs!!

The antenna looks fine from the picture. As others have mentioned, the Blonder-Tongue preamp is probably not getting any power.

As a start, before you go out and buy a new preamp, try connecting your balun to the same screw terminals as the lead-in from the antenna. This will effectively bypass the antenna. (It would be even better to connect it to the antenna, and forget about the leadin. Don't do that yet, as you may end up having to reuse the leadin to connect to a new preamplifier in the future..)

Let us know if the pictrure

Tower Guy · 26-Apr-2010, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rlrobinhood

Tower Guy mentioned a preamplifier and not getting power, etc. I'm pretty stupid when it comes to this stuff, so you'll have to baby step me through it. I'd assume that whatever that box thing is, it doesn't work. Its pretty old.

That box thing needs power. Usually it gets it from the twin lead and a power inserter behind the TV set. You've removed the twin lead, and the power couldn't get through the coax to twinlead adapter (balun) that you've used anyway.

So, simply remove the box and connect the balun directly to the antenna. You should get all the analog low power stations that are still transmitting.

To get any digital stations you're going to need a taller mast or tower plus a larger and different type antenna with a new preamp.

Try entering your coordinates again with an antenna height of 50 feet. See if any of the stations get stronger.

Tigerbangs · 27-Apr-2010, 2:10 AM

With the exception of NBC, the major TV networks are available to her, and Global from Canada carries most NBC programs. The OP also seems particularly interested in FOX, which is available from the local mountaintop.

Tower Guy's observation about the balun transformer connecting the coax cable to the preamp is spot-on: I am sure that it is blocking the DC power from the preamp power supply, assuming that a power supply is even present.

I believe that the smart move here is to replace the existing preamp with a new Channel Master Titan 7777, and replace the twin-lead cable running from the antenna to the preamplifier input with a new short length of coaxial cable. Its possible that the antenna terminals on the antenna are old and corroded, in which case we may have trouble mounting a new antenna balun on the existing antenna.

The upshot of all this is that we definitely need to replace the preamplifier, and we MAY need to replace the antenna if the place where the antenna wire attaches to the antenna is badly corroded.

If we can use the existing antenna, we need to buy a weather-resistant balun like a Channel Master 0089/0090 to connect new coaxial cable to the new preamplifier. New preamplifiers usually use coaxial cable both in and out of the preamplifier. You will also need to install the preamplifier power supply inside the house before connecting it to the antenna connector on the TV set. Here is a link to an instructional video about the Channel Master Titan 7777

http://www.hdtvantennalabs.com/forum...eamp-t853.html

If we determine that the old antenna can no longer be used , or you simply want a better antenna than what you already have, consider an AntennasDirect XG-91 UHF antenna, which is probably the best, moderately-priced UHF antenna currently available: it can be bought cheaply from SolidSignal.com

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...u=853748001910

And here is the preamplifier:
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...ku=02057207774

With the combination of these two components, plus a short length of coax cable to run between the antenna and the preamplifier, you should be able see all of the local TV stations from the mountaintop clearly.

Remember to be sure that the antenna is aimed at 314 degrees plus or minus a few degrees, as measured by your compass.

rlrobinhood · 29-Apr-2010, 5:28 AM

Hi guys,

I'm back again and want to thank you again for your assistance on this. After reading through all your responses, I have some points/questions to discuss with you further....
1) OK, the existing preamplifier is just the box on the mast, so I will eliminate it from my system. There is no power source. It also looks very old.
2) What is a balun? I guess I thought is simply converted the old flat tv antenna wire (300 ohm) to the newer coaxial cable (75 ohm). By your comments, I am assuming that it does more than this?
3) I re-ran the TVFOOL REPORT with a 50' mast and it did not significantly change any of the data. Only a few stations had changed and by only .1
4) I'm going to go ahead and order the Channel Master Titan 7777 preamplifier that Tigerbangs suggested. How do I make the connection between my existing antenna and the preamplifier? I'm assuming it will be a balun, but not the kind that I have on there now? Tigerbangs, can you give me a link to what I need? Where should I put the "inside the house" part of this ampifier? Are there any distance restrictions from the "outside the house" portion?
5) My current antenna is only about 24" long. The antenna Tigerbangs suggested looks like it is 93" long. This is huge! Not that it bothers me, I just need to find another place to put it. With the preamplifier discussed in #4, is there any coaxial cable length restriction that I need to pay attention to? Reason I ask is I have an old windmill tower a little ways behind my house, not too far, but it is real tall and might be a good place. Any thoguhts?
6) Lasly, Tigerbangs mentioned that there is a FOX station in the hills to the north. I think you accidentally put the wrong info down. Channel 42 is actually a NBC channel. I think the nearest FOX channel is Channel 45 which is 71 miles to the south (see attached TVFOOL REPORT). Would the antenna that Tigerbangs reccomended still work?

Thanks again guys and sorry for such a long thread. You guys are great!

Chandra

kb2fzq · 29-Apr-2010, 11:16 AM

Here's an explaination of a balun:
A balun, is a type of electrical transformer that can convert electrical signals that are balanced about ground (differential flat twin lead cable, in our case 300 ohms) to signals that are unbalanced (single-ended coaxial cable, in our case 75 ohms) and vice versa. BAL-UN
The balun transforms the impedence of the TV signal that comes off the antenna, which is 300 ohms to 75 ohms, so that less lossy coaxial cable can be used to direct the signal to the TV. Twin lead can be effected by metal objects, and will have a degraded signal, as opposed to good quality coaxial cable.
All a balun does is convert one impedence to another impedence, and nothing more.
A balun will not allow direct current voltage to pass thru it, and should be connected right at the antenna, IF a factory installed, 75 ohm F-connector is not present on said antenna, which on some of the new antennas, the F-connector is present, in which case a balun would not be necessary.
In your case, you have a balun connected to the upper end of your coaxial cable, which is then attached to the pre-amp...that's a balun, but in your configuration, the balun stops the voltage from getting to the pre-amp, thus not powering the pre-amp, thus not allowing any of the TV signal to make it to your TV....this is why the suggestion was made to connect the balun on the end of the coax, directly to the antenna....

Dave Loudin · 29-Apr-2010, 1:54 PM

Chandra,
Let's see if I can help you with the information that's been presented so far, organized by the questions you still have:

1) You are correct about what the preamp is. However, there must have been power provided to it via the old wiring that you replaced. Typically, there is a power brick installed near the TV (for convenience) that ties to this wiring. Whether that thing still exists or not is not important, as you no longer can feed power to the old preamp via coax cable.

2) Your first impression of what a balun is is correct, and it is the barrel-shaped object with the twinlead "pigtail" that you used to connect the coax to the preamp. However, it does nothing more than that. kb2fzq described why the balun prevents you from being able to power the old preamp.

3) I'm not surprised that there was little difference to the first six stations on the list - you already have a clear shot (LOS means line of sight) at them at 12 feet. We were wondering if there would be any material improvement in the next group of stations that have to clear 2 obstacles to get to you. Apparently not.

4) The AntennasDirect XG-91 comes with a balun, so here's how you connect everything: Attach the balun provided with the antenna at the correct place; mount the ChannelMaster 7777 pre-amp on the tower, and run a short piece of coax cable from the antenna's balun to the pre-amp; attach the cable from the house to the pre-amp's output; inside, install the beige-colored power supply near the TV, connect the cable from the outside to the right point on that device, then run a short piece of coax from the other point to the TV.

5) Depending on the type of coax you have, you will lose from 5 to 8 dB of signal for every 100 feet. Assuming worst-case, you would have enough amplification to account for the losses in 300 feet of cable. Since higher is generally better for UHF reception, that tower should be an OK place to mount to if the cable run is less than 300 feet.

6) Tigerbangs was correct - one of the analog translators you can pick up (channel 42) relays KTGF, the Fox affiliate. The TVFool report does not usually list the Network for translators, hence your confusion. Tigerbang's post lists what each of those six translators carries, and his antenna recommendation is for picking up those translators, not the originating stations on down the list.

Good luck!

Tigerbangs · 30-Apr-2010, 11:39 AM

Another thought here: if you want to use the windmill tower to mount an antenna, the XG-91 would most likely have to go at the top of the tower because of it's construction and length, however, the smaller XG-43 uses an end-mounting that would allow you to mount the antenna further down the mast, making installation a bit easier. Even if you have several hundred feet of coax cable running to the house, the Channel Master preamplifier will compensate for the line losses associated with the long cable run, and you should have a good TV picture. As to how to properly install the the Channel Master Titan 7777 preamplifier, have a look at the demonstration video that I linked to you in the post above: it will answer most of your questions.

http://www.hdtvantennalabs.com/forum...eamp-t853.html

rlrobinhood · 2-May-2010, 5:28 AM

Hi guys,

Thanks again for all the help and patience. I guess I just ask a lot of questions. I can't thank you enought for all your help.

Well, what I think I am going to do is order the preamp and see how things go and then possibly order a new antenna. Thanks for all the advice.

With all this being said, I do just have one dead horse I want to kick once more. That is the channel 42. When it comes through on my tv, it is a NBC channel and when I google the call letters, I get the same thing. Am I somehow picking up a distorted NBC channel on my tv? Or maybe it is a recent change? Just curious as I love American Idol (laugh out loud, I know....).

Thanks again.

Chandra

kb2fzq · 2-May-2010, 12:14 PM

When you say, when channel 42 "comes thru", is it analog, i.e. snowy, ghosty, barely watchable picture, or is it digital, crystal clear picture?
I suspect there is a distant station on channel 42 that you are receiving that is on NBC, which would be caused by an atmospheric condition called troposperic ducting, where the TV signals travel great distances, sometimes hundreds of miles. Your location may be a sweet spot for that station at certain times.

Tigerbangs · 2-May-2010, 6:07 PM

There is a possibility that the translator channel switched from rebroadcasting FOX to NBC, but I have no way to confirm without actually seeing the channels: I'd have to depend on you to know that for sure.

Dave Loudin · 5-May-2010, 5:19 PM

Thanks, Tigerbangs for catching the mounting issue!

Chandra, if you're considering using the windmill tower, rerun your TVFool prediction using the height where you would mount an antenna on it. You might have a shot at getting the originating FOX station in digital if you can get 110 feet or more in the air (based on the closest house to the coordinates on your original report). If the NM for WTGF-DT ends up close to zero, then we can look at tweaking the recommendations. Otherwise, you are left with the analog translators we have been discussing.

It is possible, as Tigerbangs posted, that the translator on channel 42 is now relaying an NBC station instead of a FOX station. Instead of searching on the call signs of the stations being relayed, search instead on the call signs listed in your TVFool report (e.g., K51KO, K36DK, K42DD). These are the actual calls of the signals you are receiving.

UPDATE: The first link when searching for K42DD is a Wikipedia entry for KTGF. According to that article, KTGF is silent. I believe that to be true, as KTGF filed a request to the FCC to temporarily go silent for technical reasons. The application indicated that the station went silent 12/19/2009. According to the last FCC record for K42DD (a license renewal application), it is relaying KBGF-LP, Great Falls (which in turn is repeating KTVH, Helena) and is an NBC affiliate. Chandra, does what you see on channel 42 use "Beartooth NBC" as an identifier?

Dave Loudin · 5-May-2010, 6:40 PM

After a little digging, I do not find anything else that would update Tigerbangs' listing of what the translators are carrying. This means that NBC, CBS, ABC, PBS, and the two Canadian services are what is available via the analog translators. Getting FOX now requires picking up KFBB-DT, RF channel 8. Based on the TVFool report at 10 feet, it would appear to be possible, but would require a large antenna designed for hi-VHF. However, in the near future, the situation may change as the repeater for KFBB, K51KO, has applied for flash-cutting to digital.

Chandra, the entity that operates 5 of the 6 repeaters is East Butte TV Club (K48AI is owned by KRTV, Inc.). Their address is 303 Galletin St., Shelby, MT 59474 and their phone number is (406)339-2421. You should contact them to see what their plans are for these stations.

rlrobinhood · 11-May-2010, 3:50 AM

Hi again,

Well, I bought the Channel Master Titan 7777 and hooked it up yesterday. It works great! Thanks Tigerbangs! You were right on. I hooked it up to my existing antenna.

One thing I did notice is channel 36 no longer comes in. I don't know if it was working or not before I hooked up the Channel Master. I guess I should have. We've been having a lot of snow storms lately and I know the hills where the repeaters are at were hit real hard. I think I'll try giving the East Butte TV Club a call tomorrow and see if I can reach someone. Maybe they can tell me.

With all this being said, would there be any benefit ot buying the AntennasDirect XG-91? With this antenna, do you think I'd be able to pick up any additional stations?

Thanks again everyone. You're great!

Chandra

Tigerbangs · 11-May-2010, 4:01 AM

If you are getting a clear TV picture with no snow or ghosts, don't bother buying a new antenna: you won't gain anything from it. If you want to get the FOX station: chances are good that we'll have to use that windmill tower along with an XG-91 aimed south-southwest to pick up FOX from Great Falls: Difficult, but not impossible. If we do get it, it will be digital, however. and will require a digital tuner if you don't already have one...

rlrobinhood · 14-May-2010, 4:23 AM

Well, I've been calling East Butte TV Club (owns/operates the repeaters on the hills to the north of me) for a couple days now and all I get is a generic answering machine. I left a message, so maybe they'll call me back. I suspect its an answering machine in a building that is rarely visited.

So, for the time, no channel 36. I suspect its repeater is down anyway because if it were working, I think I would get it. I get all the other channels from the hills very well.