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Old 26-Mar-2010, 3:04 PM   #1
Billiam
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Antenna and Installation Advice Needed

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...b7c82f54531b88

I would like to get KMIZ TV 17 and then KQTV 7 in addition to the local channels in Yellow.

I was thinking that the Winegard HD 8800 would be the best antenna for the UHF signals since it has the best gain for the lower channels. The rest of the UHF signals are all fairly strong and I suspect it will easily capture those including the channels at the upper end of the UHF band.

I am also guessing that the Winegard YA 7-13 will probably get Ch. 7 .

I noted that the best height to install the antenna for CH. 17 is at 15 to 20 feet. Adding height will not help and only improves the local signals to some degree.

Will I need a Pre amp like the following if I want to get these two stations? Type 9254 seems to be right for this application.

http://www.researchcomms.com/hdtv.html

I take it that RG-6 will be adequate cable.

How do I properly ground this if I mount it on a 5 foot mast on a rotor on my roof? What kind of accessories will I need for grounding aside from a ground rod?

Any other information over and above the answers to the questions above is appreciated.
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Old 26-Mar-2010, 4:53 PM   #2
Tigerbangs
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Bill, for some reason, your TVFool.com report didn't post: would you please repost it for us? Thanks!
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Old 26-Mar-2010, 4:55 PM   #3
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Hopefully this link works.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...b7c82f54531b88
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Old 26-Mar-2010, 5:19 PM   #4
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Thank you for reposting: this report works! Well, Channel 7 won't be too hard, although it is a bit weak, but since it is on VHF, it won't mess with your KC stations, which are all on UHF. I would definitely use either a Winegard YA-1713 or an AntennaCraft Y-10-7-13 aimed at 305 degrees to pick it up, and I would use a Channel Master Titan 7777 preamplifier to combine the two antennas: VHF and UHF, since the Titan 7777 has separate VHF and UHF inputs.

KMIZ is another issue: it's 83 miles from your location, and well over the horizon. While is shows a slightly positive noise margin at your location, that signal is going to be fragile, and most likely to be subject to atmospheric interference at times, so we need to approach this station a bit differently. While the Winegard HD-8800 has terrific gain at low UHF frequencies, it also has a pretty broad beamwidth at channel 17, which is KMIZ's digital channel. Since we will be talking about having 3 antennas in this mast,I am going to suggest going with an AntennasDirect XG-91 for KMIZ, aimed at 115 degrees and inserted into the cabling system using a Channel Master JoinTenna tuned to specifically receive channel 17. That device is still available on special order from SummitSource.com.

I know that a lot has been bantered about concerning the XG-91 on low UHF frequencies, but I will tell you that it has great directionality at channel 17 and still has 11.5 dB gain at that frequency. When you consider the sheer number of necessary antennas for your array, and the necessary antenna spacing involved, I honestly believe that the XG-91 is your best bet in this situation.
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Old 26-Mar-2010, 5:23 PM   #5
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Thanks Tigerbangs.

I can always mount two antennas on one mast and install a second mast for the other antenna. I plan to install a separate VHF antenna for my FM tuner and I can put one of the UHF antennas on that mast.

Is the CM amp better than the UK model? I've heard great things about the UK amps.
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Old 26-Mar-2010, 5:32 PM   #6
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Tigerbangs. Another question. I'd rather not purchase two antennas if at all possible. Currently I own a CM HD 4221 and the older 4228. Since I will be using the XG 91 for KMIZ TV and not for the other UHF stations, do you think I can use the 4221 to pick up the stations in yellow from KC? I'd rather not mount the 4228 right now because I am in a high wind area and the added weight of the antenna will make it susceptible to falling over during a strong storm with a roof top mount. I'd be more inclined to mount it on a tower but at this time that will not be possible.

If the 4221 is not adequate for the KC channels then I will have to spend the extra bux for a 8800.
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Old 28-Mar-2010, 3:48 AM   #7
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I believe that you'll have no issues with KC using the 4221 it should be just fine; my only concern for you is having multiple screen-type antenna on the same mast, since they are wind-catchers, but it sounds as if you are willing to mount antennas on 2 separate masts, so you can probably engineer an antenna system that won't be too windblown.

As for the ResearchComm preamp, my information is third party and anecdotal, but I have read that 2 different posters in forums that I read have had the UK preamp, and have had failures. Both has mentioned having warranty service issues, since the company is in the UK, and has no US representation., they have complained about the cost and delay in getting replacement preamps. My understanding of the preamp is that it is great when it works, but even the company's website touts a "2% failure rate" in the preamps, which, in my mind, is unacceptable for a modern electronics company. It spells trouble for a Yank who has issues with it and can't get an easy or quick replacement without paying half the cost of the product in shipping and customs fees.

If there were no good preamplifiers available here in the US, I might think differently, but my inclination is to go with a good Channel Master or a Winegard preamp, and know that, if you have a failure, that you can get a quick and easy replacement. IMHO.
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Old 28-Mar-2010, 3:44 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Tigerbangs View Post
I believe that you'll have no issues with KC using the 4221 it should be just fine; my only concern for you is having multiple screen-type antenna on the same mast, since they are wind-catchers, but it sounds as if you are willing to mount antennas on 2 separate masts, so you can probably engineer an antenna system that won't be too windblown.

As for the ResearchComm preamp, my information is third party and anecdotal, but I have read that 2 different posters in forums that I read have had the UK preamp, and have had failures. Both has mentioned having warranty service issues, since the company is in the UK, and has no US representation., they have complained about the cost and delay in getting replacement preamps. My understanding of the preamp is that it is great when it works, but even the company's website touts a "2% failure rate" in the preamps, which, in my mind, is unacceptable for a modern electronics company. It spells trouble for a Yank who has issues with it and can't get an easy or quick replacement without paying half the cost of the product in shipping and customs fees.

If there were no good preamplifiers available here in the US, I might think differently, but my inclination is to go with a good Channel Master or a Winegard preamp, and know that, if you have a failure, that you can get a quick and easy replacement. IMHO.
I know that the UK unit has a very low noise floor which makes it the choice of many for deep fringe locations. But after hearing what you just said about the failure rate and upon additional reading I learned that some of the units have caught fire, I've decided to pass. I'll opt for the Channel Bastard 777 or possibly the comparable Winegard unit.

I've been getting some additional feedback about antenna type on the HighDef forum. BTW. I see that you are back on there again. I've ruled out the choice that JB suggests which was the 7698P. Nice antenna but it's not quite as sensitive on the UHF band as a UHF only antenna. Since MKIZ is going to be a challenge, I definitely need the most sensitive antenna I can find.

The XG91 does seem like a good choice. But I got to thinking that perhaps the Super G 1483 might be just as good or even better especially if I go for the 16 bay unit. I just took a look at the home again and it appears as though I can mount the antenna on a small chimney vs. the stink pipe I previously thought I'd have to use. That being the case, a chimney mount will be more secure than a vent pipe and can accommodate the larger antenna. Another guy in MO in the general area as myself also said the C4 by Antennas Direct would also work.

What do you think about these other antennas? Or even the Winegard 9032 as just mentioned in another post? I noted the 9032 is considerably cheaper than the XG 91 but seems to have comparable specs. Or the CB 4248? Seems to be on par with the XG91 for the channels at 20 or lower according to HDTV Primer's Net Gain chart.

Can you tell me in your eyes what gives the XG91 an edge over the others? I'm still willing to try it but I just want to be certain it is the right antenna for this situation.
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Old 28-Mar-2010, 6:20 PM   #9
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I believe that you have made the right decision about your preamp. Again, the Super G 1483 is a great antenna, but it IS massive, and the same concerns apply about it as any big-screen bowtie antenna: size, mounting and wind load. If you can handle it, it may be worth a try, but it will be more than twice as expensive as the XG-91 delivered, and it is complicated to set up. The C$ is NOT really a fringe-area antenna: it averages only about 8.5 dBi gain, a good 5-6 less than the XG-91. Yes; it's small, but really is not all that it's cracked up to be.

As for the HD-9032 vs. the XG-91, I don't believe that there is any comparison: the XG-91 has a number of advantages over the HD-9032, including weight, shipping cost, gain, and the XG-91 has the built-in boom-tilt feature that makes it better suited to seeing signals coming in from over the horizon. What you'll find is that much of the HD-9032 difference in price is eaten up by the fact that it ships on one piece, making it very expensive to ship, and reducing the differential in cost between the two antennas.
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Old 28-Mar-2010, 6:42 PM   #10
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Tigerbangs. Will the JoinTenna still be necessary if I put the XG 91 antenna on one mast and then the CB 4221HD and VHF antenna on a separate mast?
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Old 28-Mar-2010, 6:55 PM   #11
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Yes, since the signals will be coming from opposite directions, and given the disparity in signal strengths, I would definitely use a join-tena.
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Old 31-Mar-2010, 5:59 PM   #12
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A channel 17 Jointenna will take out KCPT operating on UHF-18...

At the lowest end of the UHF band and based on field testing, the C4 will slightly out-perform the 91XG.

Last edited by ADTech; 31-Mar-2010 at 6:04 PM.
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Old 31-Mar-2010, 6:06 PM   #13
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KCPT will come down about 20dB, but should still have enough signal to be seen through the attenuation of the Jointenna. In actual fact, the 4221 antenna will give him about 10 dB gain, and the JoinTenna will pull that down 20dB. Since he has a noise margin of 35dB on KCPT, he can safely accept the reduction to a 25 dB noise margin without compromising reception of KCPT
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Old 2-Jun-2010, 8:18 PM   #14
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KCPT will come down about 20dB, but should still have enough signal to be seen through the attenuation of the Jointenna. In actual fact, the 4221 antenna will give him about 10 dB gain, and the JoinTenna will pull that down 20dB. Since he has a noise margin of 35dB on KCPT, he can safely accept the reduction to a 25 dB noise margin without compromising reception of KCPT
Tigerbangs. My XG91 should arrive today. I will pair it with the 7777 and see what happens. Unfortunately I cannot seem to get a Jointenna for Ch. 17. I ordered one from Warren Electronics but that was more than two months ago and it has not shipped. The last time I talked to them they said I would have it within a week but that didn't materialize. I suspect it may have been discontinued and may not be available. Any other ideas on what I can try if this setup will not obtain KMIZ Ch. 17?
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Old 2-Jun-2010, 9:25 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billiam View Post
Tigerbangs. My XG91 should arrive today. I will pair it with the 7777 and see what happens. Unfortunately I cannot seem to get a Jointenna for Ch. 17. I ordered one from Warren Electronics but that was more than two months ago and it has not shipped. The last time I talked to them they said I would have it within a week but that didn't materialize. I suspect it may have been discontinued and may not be available. Any other ideas on what I can try if this setup will not obtain KMIZ Ch. 17?

Call the Tin Lee Co. in Toronto: http://www.tinlee.com: tell them what you want, and they will make it for you: their stuff is pricy, but guaranteed to work!
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Old 3-Jun-2010, 3:30 AM   #16
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Call the Tin Lee Co. in Toronto: http://www.tinlee.com: tell them what you want, and they will make it for you: their stuff is pricy, but guaranteed to work!
Should I get a filter that will wipe out every channel except Ch. 17? Or should I just get something that will take out a few specific channels? If so, which channels should be wiped out?
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Old 7-Jun-2010, 12:00 AM   #17
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You want an AC7-2CH tuned to insert channel 17 into your broadband system. The effect of this device will be to subtract channel 17 from the broadband signal and replace it with the channel 17 signal received from the XG-91. This device is essentially like a Channel Master Join-Tenna on steroids...LOL
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Old 7-Jun-2010, 1:31 AM   #18
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Tigerbangs. Not sure what you are describing when you say "broadband"? I only have an OTA antenna and TV. No "broadband CATV" or satellite here. Can you elaborate further?
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Old 7-Jun-2010, 4:32 AM   #19
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Broadband in this case means a UHF-VHF antenna that covers some or all of the VHF-UHF TV spectrum. This device is the direct replacement for the Join Tenna, it is individually tuned to specific channel that you are trying to receive and then add it to the other antenna that gives you all your other stations.
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Old 8-Jun-2010, 2:55 PM   #20
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Tigerbangs. Can you recommend a specific Splitter or Combiner with low loss that I can use to combine the two antennas into one line out to the TV?
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