Advice on improving signal

ljkdhall · 1-May-2014, 12:24 AM

Ok, here is my TvFool profile:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...e1c6b038b081d1

What I'm TRYING to do: Get rid of satellite, use only OTA, plus internet services (Netflix, HuluPlus, etc), AND Windows Media Center for DVR functions.

What I have:
1. Winegard HD8200U (because I still want to get Ames Channel 5, which is still a low-VHF station.) Mounted on pole attached to my ranch style house, approximately 16 feet off the ground, but only clearing the roof-line by maybe 4 feet.
2. Winegard LNA-200 antenna booster
3. All new quad shield RG-9 (approx 25 feet from antenna to the...(see next line)
4. HD Homerun Dual ATSC.
5. Approx 25 feet RG-9 to PC by TV in living room.

What works, what doesn't.
1. If cable is hooked up directly to my LG 47 inch TV, everything is awesome, all the channels I want come in nice and clear with no breakup or other issues.
2. If I am using my Windows Media Center PC (running from the Silicon Dust HD Homerun Dual ATSC), channels 5.1 and 5.2 work sometimes, but break-up somewhat just enough to be annoying. Channels 19.1 and 19.2 don't work at all.

So...what do I do to make the Media Center PC work for DVR recording and for direct watching? Different TV tuner? Do I need a higher mast for the antenna? Something else?

I'm open for any suggestions, and you guys seem pretty darn smart from everything I've read in your forum!
Thanks in advance for any help you can provide!
Larry

GroundUrMast · 1-May-2014, 7:23 PM

Let's take a look at the signal prediction for 25' & 50'.

Quote:

1. If cable is hooked up directly to my LG 47 inch TV, everything is awesome, all the channels I want come in nice and clear with no breakup or other issues.
2. If I am using my Windows Media Center PC (running from the Silicon Dust HD Homerun Dual ATSC), channels 5.1 and 5.2 work sometimes, but break-up somewhat just enough to be annoying. Channels 19.1 and 19.2 don't work at all.

Is this comparison identical?
Is the only difference, that the HDHR is in place of the LG tuner?
Or, is there added cable and splitter involved?
Is the preamp removed from the system while these test are being performed?

Are you familiar with the HDHomeRunConfig (GUI) that lets you manually access the HDHR tuner? The HDHR tuner is a great signal monitor/metering/diagnostic tool.

On my XP box, the utility is at "C:\Program Files\Silicondust\HDHomeRun\hdhomerun_config_gui.exe"

http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=820

1-May-2014, 9:10 PM

+=>

When testing reception device , make direct compraisons , use a single coax , no splitters.

Here are alternative tuner recorders.

www.epvision.com

ljkdhall · 1-May-2014, 9:13 PM

Thanks GroundurMast.
Splitter is already in place, one output goes to the HD Homerun, one directly to the TV.
So, I would say the comparison is a fair one. I should have mentioned the splitter in my description of the system...sorry about that.
Maybe the splitter is degrading the signal enough, but it still gives a strong signal from the output that is hooked up directly to the TV.
I will see about accessing the HDHomeRunConfig tool. I was not aware of that application, maybe that will tell me more (although I may not know what exactly I am looking at). Is there any way of tweaking the sensitivity of the HD Homerun?
I see where there are newer versions of the HD HomeRun, I might inquire on their own forums to see if they have better senstivity than my unit.

Thanks for your help so far.
Larry

GroundUrMast · 1-May-2014, 9:26 PM

Consider performing this test, http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=13646

The key thing to look for is an answer to the question, "Can the antenna deliver reliable reception to a single tuner, with no amplifier involved?"

Also, can you post additional TV Fool reports for 25' & 50'?

Are there trees or other obstructions in the path of your antenna aim?

Thanks

GroundUrMast · 1-May-2014, 9:38 PM

When I run an FM fool report for your ZIP code, I see several very strong FM signals present. You may benefit from the addition of an FM trap between the antenna and the rest of the system.

The LNA-200 is known to lack shielding that's needed to keep out strong local signals such as FM radio. I'd consider replacing it with an RCA TVPRAMP1R, which has a built-in FM trap.

You can use the built-in trap and an external trap such as the Radio Shack 15-024 if the FM signal is extremely powerful. The HD8200U is going to add to the problem of FMI (Fm interference) because it covers the FM band well. If pointed at an FM station, you can expect the 8200 to deliver quite a bit of power to the rest of your system. (But use of one or more FM traps can knock the FM signal power down to a tolerable level.)

Flint Ridge · 1-May-2014, 11:04 PM

Did some searching for that amp in your area. I currently have 2 that have worked well for me. 3014395 is the model number at Menards. They are currently on sale but out of stock in Fort Dodge. $20.85. Sale Price Good Through 05-04-2014. Nearest one in stock Ankeny, Mason City or Clive.

Radio Shack has them on sale too, not sure about one near you. RCA TVPRAMP1R Outdoor Antenna Preamplifier
Model: TVPRAMP1R | Catalog #: 55065042
Sale Price:
$21.50

Valid until: 05/30/14

ljkdhall · 2-May-2014, 2:29 AM

Thanks for input (from everyone so far). Hadn't considered FM interference. It is true, there is a 100,000 watt tower (96.9FM) approximately 3.5 miles north and slightly west of my house. FM signal is from the opposite direction from where I am pointing my antenna, but I suppose that many watts that close could be a significant factor. I will see if I can pick up either an FM trap or amplifier with built-in trap. (or both, if you guys think that's what it will take)
I suppose the first thing would be to see how the signal is without an amp at all, then maybe no amp but an FM trap, then, if needed, amp and trap.

Really appreciate all of the suggestions, I will work through them and let you know what I find out.

Only problem is this weekend is already pretty full, so I probably won't have a chance to figure this all out and let you know until sometime next week.

Until then, thanks so much for the help. I'll be in touch!
Larry

GroundUrMast · 2-May-2014, 2:43 AM

I would start at the beginning, the antenna. What can it do with no amplifier and a minimum length cable to a single tuner?

That might cost a new store bought cable...

Then, what good does adding a passive FM trap to the test do for you? (RS 15-024)

Once those are known quantities, you'll be in a better position to decide if more needs to be done.

I'd still like to see the 25' & 50' TV Fool predictions...

ljkdhall · 2-May-2014, 3:22 AM

Right you are! Here is 25 foot report: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...e1c6fbf26cb2be

And here is 50 foot report: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...e1c687d1f0331d

I'm not seeing a huge difference...but then, I'm not that expert at looking at these.

I agree, I'll try it with no amp as soon as I have time to get outside and bypass the amp on the pole next week, then work forward from there. That definitely makes sense. No Radio Shacks around here anymore, will have to figure that out for an FM trap after that.
Thanks again!
Larry

GroundUrMast · 2-May-2014, 5:05 AM

You're right, there is little real change in signal levels as you go up to 50'... At least on paper.

Let's just keep the option of moving the antenna, up, down or laterally, for later... If the need is proven. It's amazing what a few inches or a few feet can do for reception in many cases. But... If there are obstructions such as trees or any part of any building, then moving the antenna to avoid the obstruction(s) should be high on the list of 'possible solutions'.

Flint Ridge · 2-May-2014, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ljkdhall

... No Radio Shacks around here anymore, will have to figure that out for an FM trap after that.
Thanks again!
Larry

Actually if you go to Radio Shacks site there are various locations near you they will ship to.

BEN FRANKLIN
#22-C497
220 W BROADWAY
EAGLE GROVE, IA 50533
Phone: (515) 448-3543
~12.9 Miles Click for more info
Please contact the store
at 515-448-3543 for store hours
POCAHONTAS FARM & HOME
#22-G256
EAST HIGHWAY 3
PO BOX 803
POCAHONTAS, IA 50574
Phone: (712) 335-3571
~36.3 Miles Click for more info
Please contact the store
at 712-335-3571 for store hours
AMES - N GRAND PLAZA
#01-6032
2801 N GRAND PLAZA
AMES, IA 50010
Phone: (515) 232-7115
~37.5 Miles Click for more info
Mon-Sat 10 am - 9 pm
Sunday 12 pm - 5 pm

ljkdhall · 6-May-2014, 12:45 AM

Beautiful Iowa afternoon! Good chance to crawl around on roof (and basement)
What I've done:
1. Found the HDHomerun signal strength utility (pretty detailed and useful), ran it with current setup. Problem channel 5: Signal strength 100%, Signal quality 52%, Symbol quality (whatever that is)...jumps between 0 and 45%.

2. disconnected amplifier from pole and took out power injector in basement. (So now a straight cable run from antenna to HDHomerun) Results on problem channel 5 virtually identical on all counts to results with Winegard amp. This is disappointing, I was hoping for something to be different at least, but didn't really see anything. All readings within 1% of first set.

3. I had picked up the RCA amp recommended..Hooked that up in place of Winegard Amp, with FM trap ON. Interestingly, channel 19 (another problem channel, but not one I care about as much) improved dramatically, to 100% on all 3 measurements. However, channel 5 is still no joy. Signal Strength 100%, Signal Quality 52-54%, Symbol quality 0-60% (jumps around constantly). On actual TV viewing, channel 5 is still marginal at best, lots of breakup/pixelation.

Since the signal strength is 100% but the Signal Quality is only around 52%...does this indicate that strong FM interference is causing the problem??

I have not picked up a separate FM trap yet (couldn't find one locally), but that's my next step, unless my results give you guys any other ideas of what I might try.

Thanks in advance for all your help!
Larry

6-May-2014, 3:53 AM

+=>

Most likely the situation with , WOI , Real VHF low band channel 5 , is multi-path.

Reflected Tv signals bouncing all around off of buildings and trees.

Moving multi-path , moving trees , moving air planes , moving cars and trucks , and other moving objects that reflect Tv signals , is not good for reception.

It can help to change the height of the antenna and also to change the location of the antenna.

Also the super wide spaced elements of the HD8200U do a good job of receiving multi-path.

A more compact Big antenna does a better job of not receiving multi-path , rejecting multi-path , a narrower beam width antenna.

Antennas with narrow forward beam width are , www.antennacraft.net , HD1850 , and Winegard HD7084P antenna.

GroundUrMast · 6-May-2014, 6:53 AM

The poor signal quality indicated by the HDHR tuner can be caused by any type of interference. If you can turn all power off to everything in the house, except the components associated with the antenna system and tuner, you may be able to determine if there is locally generated interference.

This test would not isolate multipath, FMI or any other external interference sources.

With the aid of the signal quality value, you can fine tune aim. Signal quality is more important than signal strength.

ljkdhall · 7-May-2014, 12:01 AM

Thanks so far GroundUrMast, teleview, Flint Ridge.
I did travel over to Eagle Grove and bought an FM trap, just to be thorough. Tried FM trap by itself, and then in conjunction with RCA antenna mounted amp. No significant difference.
Tried turning off all power except the TV itself, no discernable difference.

Just because, I climbed on the roof and took a couple of pictures, one looking towards the antenna, and one taken from essentially antenna level looking forward (towards the stations I am trying to receive.). Figured this MIGHT help you evaluate things better (or not).
Antenna points towards the peak in the roof, and only sits around 4 feet higher than the peak...could that be part of the problem? There is one large pine tree across the street, roughly in the line-of-site. Maybe that contributes? Just trying to let you help me.

Still worth noting (I think!)...I am watching channel 5 right now, on a direct connection from the antenna to the TV (not through the HD Homerun). And, it works fine. A few small artifacts here and there, but channel is definitely watchable. Teleview, you gave a link to another company that has TV tuner boxes...any knowledge on whether the tuners they have are any more sensitive than the HD Homerun series?? Just trying to weigh all the options and figure out where to go from here.

Anyway, thanks for all your help so far. If you have any inkling what way you'd recommend I proceed from here, I am open to any options. Just want to figure out what makes the most sense...different antenna, moving or raising antenna, different tuner...or something else.

Let me know your thoughts when you have the chance, and thanks for all your expertise so far.
Larry