TV Fool  

Go Back   TV Fool > Over The Air Services > Help With Reception

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 14-Nov-2011, 6:55 PM   #1
PDXComposer
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 6
Same Portland, slightly different problem

I gotta say, first, it's very odd that us downtown Portland, OR OTA watchers seem to always have a problem with the SAME channels (KOIN and KATU). I have to wonder if it's a common problem.

My problems are: 1) specifically the degradation and now permanently loss of a viewable signal from KATU - channel 2.1 and 2.1 or UHF 43, 2) the degradation of signal, light during the day, but worse at night of KOIN - channel 6.1 or UHF 40 and 3) the occasional degradation of the signal from UHF channel 47 and 49. In all, the loss and the poor signals seem to be affected largely in the UHF 40 - 43 field and sometimes 44 - 49.

My home is 2 blocks west of I-405 and 1 block north of I-26, nestled in Goose Hollow. My wonderful HD antenna (from Denny's Antenna) is about 20 feet off the ground and pointed at approximately 270 azimuth. This and the following installation description worked wonderfully at installation a year ago, has degraded over the last 6 months and become permanently bad in the last few weeks. So this has been a problem that has slowly evolved - after working perfectly for 6 or more months.

The antenna signal is carried via coax cable (former DirecTV wiring) to a 3 way splitter. There the signal splits as follows: Split 1 goes to an Avermedia video tuner card in my Win7 PC. Split 2 goes to an RCA digital tuner and Split 3 goes to a digital LCD TV.

All 3 receivers found 23 strong channel signals when first installed October 2010.

About six months later, I noted that the RCA digital tuner on Split #2 was starting to have intermittent problems getting a strong signal from KATU (2.1 and 2.2). As this worsened, adding occasional problems with KOIN (6.1), I noted that the digital LCD TV on Split 3 was starting to lose KATU and having problems with KOIN. Eventually Split #2 lost all strength from all three channels causing the tuner to receive no picture, while Split #3 was seeing a worsening of all three channels (always 2.1 and 2.2 first and occasional problems with 6.1)

In the last 4-6 weeks, I have now lost 2.1 and 2.2 permanently on the split #2 and #3 tuners and both have regularly 6.1 problems, worsening at night.

In the last 2 weeks, my Avermedia tuner on Split #1 began having increasing problems with 2.1 and 2.2 and have now lost sufficient signal for a picture, while 6.1 is having regular problems, worsening at night.

Remember, all of these worked fine a year ago and the signal strength problems have steadily worsened to the point that I've permanently lost the picture on the KATU channels.

To begin, I tested the signal strength by removing the splitter. As you'll note below, there was no change to strength or picture quality. This does not appear to be signal loss due to splitting the signal. When feeding the antenna line direct to the Avermedia tuner card neither signal strength nor picture quality improves.

As the Avermedia card (with Windows Media Center) allows me to monitor and scan signal strength for each found channel, I can tell you that the 2.1 and 2.2 channels are coming in with poor strength (3 yellow bars out of five green). The 6.1 channels seems to flit from 4 yellow to 4 green at any given moment.

Okay, laugh. At first I assumed the problem was sun spots. But, the slow degradation resulting in failure makes that very unlikely.

At first, I assumed the problem might be solved with a signal booster. That seems unlikely after testing without the splitter. It's possible that these channels are getting too much signal, but the monitor shows the opposite is true (unless I am seeing the result post high signal interference.)

Yes, there have been a few recent modifications of cabling and WiFi in the house over the last 4 weeks. But, before describing them, please note that this slow degradation and loss was occuring LONG before these changes were made.

I recently replaced Clear WiMAX with Comcast cable internet. The Comcast signal comes in via coax to an outside box (where my 3 way antenna splitter resides) and enters the house via coax to a modem and router connected to the Avermedia PC. I can tell you that when the Comcast cable accidentally made contact with the antenna cable, there was sizable audio interference. But, it makes no contact now and does not affect the other 20 strong channels that the antenna receives.

Yes, I note that RF and WiFi can affect signals, but were the newly installed modem and router affecting the signals (just in this 40-49 range) they would not affect the signals going to Splitter #2 and #3 receivers. All of that antenna signal is outside and away from these WiFi devices. And, as stated earlier, the problems began and worsened long before this change was made.

I have no idea how strong these 3 channel signals are or how easily they are received by nearby metal components. It is possible, I suppose, that the Comcast cable or connection in the box shared with the antenna line and splits could be radiating some kind of added signal that is interfering with the signal split to all 3 receivers. I have not tried removing the Comcast cable to see if signal quality improves. But, the Comcast installer and I were very careful about keeping these two leads (cable and antenna) separated in the box and connected with reasonable cable shield. Well, the splitter is just a little metal box, so i have to count on the integrity of the connections to hope they are grounded. Ah...could added grounding be needed? This is not my area of expertise.

So I am stymied. Dunno what caused the slow loss of these channels. Any advice is greatly appreciated.
PDXComposer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-Nov-2011, 3:06 AM   #2
MisterMe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: USA Gulf South
Posts: 231
Do what everyone else does. Post a TV Fool Radar Plot with your exact address. Include where you have your antenna located--outdoors, in the attic, wherever. Also include the type of dwelling--single-family home, apartment, trailer, whatever.
MisterMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-Nov-2011, 4:05 AM   #3
GroundUrMast
Moderator
 
GroundUrMast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Greater Seattle Area
Posts: 4,773
A TV Fool report would help us be sure of the signal conditions you're working with.

Quote:
... all of these worked fine a year ago and the signal strength problems have steadily worsened to the point that I've permanently lost the picture on the KATU channels.
Top item on my list of suspects is water intrusion into the coax or balun. Right along with that is corrosion. If this is a "Stacker" antenna, look for degradation of the coupling/phasing harness.

A fairly inexpensive 'test tool' is a factory built, known good length of coax and balun. In your case, I'd be interested to know what sort of signal would you see if you disconnected the existing balun at the antenna, and then connected the 'test' balun and coax to only one tuner. If you see a reliable signal, what happens if you feed the input of the 3-way splitter with the 'test' coax and reconnect all the tuners?
__________________
If the well is dry and you don't see rain on the horizon, you'll need to dig the hole deeper. (If the antenna can't get the job done, an amp won't fix it.)

(Please direct account activation inquiries to 'admin')

Last edited by GroundUrMast; 15-Nov-2011 at 5:34 AM. Reason: Gramar and add 'test' sugestion
GroundUrMast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-Nov-2011, 2:35 PM   #4
PDXComposer
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 6
Specific to your request, here is the Signal Analysis: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...ec12c2d759efe3

The antenna is on the roof of our single family home, unencumbered by any near-by trees or vegetation and points toward the west hills where the two main broadcast towers reside.

It is easy to do the proposed test, but sadly, only on the weekend. I do not know what a balun is. The antenna I got from Denny's is this: Denny's EZ HD TV antenna
EZ HD digital TV antenna - Antenna Type: Directional VHF/UHF/FM Digital/HD. I am willing to buy new coax and balun to run this test. (I mean rain is a given here and corrosion is a possibility I suppose.

I do see a warning on Denny's site I had not previously seen. And, as my coax run is MORE than 50 feet, I have to wonder what effect the length has. (But, why does it affect only these channels?) Also I AM splitting 3 ways. (But, all my other signals are 5 green bars - best there is.) Here's his warning:

Signal amplification requirements for the EZ HD antenna

1A. If the coax cable run from the antenna to the TV is 50 feet or less and the TV signals are all rated Digital TV antenna strong signal and a signal splitter is not in use signal amplification will likely not be required.
1B. To receive TV signals rated Digital TV antenna strong signal along with Digital TV antenna moderate signalinstall the AP 8700 preamplifier.

2A. If the coax cable run from the antenna to the TV is greater then 50 feet and or a 2 way signal splitter is in use install the AP 8700 preamplifier.
2B. If any or all TV signals are rated Digital TV antenna moderate signalinstall the AP 8780 preamplifier.

3A. If a 3, or 4 way signal splitter is in use install the AP 8700 preamplifier for signal rating Digital TV antenna strong signal .
3B. If any or all TV signals are rated Digital TV antenna moderate signalinstall the AP 8780 preamplifier.

I'll run the balun, coax substitution on Saturday. Or any other proposals listed here. Thanks for the recommendations. I am open to added ideas to try, in case corrosion is not the problem.
PDXComposer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-Nov-2011, 6:20 PM   #5
ADTech
Antennas Direct Tech Supp
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,942
A balun is the matching transformer. Here's a offering from Radio Shack that's sure to be easily obtainable. http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2103912

If it's not water intrusion, then it's most likely that a tree has grown up near your LOS and you're now getting multi-path from it. Either selecting a more directional UHF antenna or relocating your existing antenna is likely to be the solution.

You do *NOT* need (or want) an amplifier - your signals are far too strong. If an installed amp doesn't go into intermodulation spasms from those strong signals, the tuner certainly will. Ignore that section of Denny's site as it doesn't apply to your location.
__________________
Antennas Direct Tech Support

For support and recommendations regarding our products, please contact us directly at https://www.antennasdirect.com/customer-service.html

Sorry, I'm not a mod and cannot assist with your site registration.
ADTech is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-Nov-2011, 6:37 PM   #6
GroundUrMast
Moderator
 
GroundUrMast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Greater Seattle Area
Posts: 4,773
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADTech View Post
...

You do *NOT* need (or want) an amplifier - your signals are far too strong. If an installed amp doesn't go into intermodulation spasms from those strong signals, the tuner certainly will. Ignore that section of Denny's site as it doesn't apply to your location.
I concur... 100%

The EZ HD antenna does not have the twin-lead phasing / coupling harness I mentioned earlier. Still, start with an inspection of the antenna and connections. If there's no sign of corrosion or water intrusion, I would still test with a new balun / matching transformer and new coax to a single set.

If you see the same symptoms, follow ADTech's suggestion of moving the antenna, higher, lower, north east, south or west.

If that fails... let's talk the situation through some more.
__________________
If the well is dry and you don't see rain on the horizon, you'll need to dig the hole deeper. (If the antenna can't get the job done, an amp won't fix it.)

(Please direct account activation inquiries to 'admin')
GroundUrMast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-Nov-2011, 12:11 AM   #7
PDXComposer
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 6
Thank you both for your fast replies. I will do the balun and coax tests first and report back some time on Saturday, when done.

BTW. When up on the ladder looking at the antenna, it does appear to look fine, the connection to (what I now realize is the ) balun seems fine too. But, I have (sad ain't it?) strong hopes that the corrosion (or other defect) is in the balun. Replacing a 100 foot run of coax ain't that much fun.
PDXComposer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-Nov-2011, 12:43 AM   #8
GroundUrMast
Moderator
 
GroundUrMast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Greater Seattle Area
Posts: 4,773
just run the test coax through a window or door for the test.
__________________
If the well is dry and you don't see rain on the horizon, you'll need to dig the hole deeper. (If the antenna can't get the job done, an amp won't fix it.)

(Please direct account activation inquiries to 'admin')
GroundUrMast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-Nov-2011, 10:02 PM   #9
PDXComposer
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 6
Whew! Busy couple of hours.

1. The Balun made no difference.
2. Pulled off the 3 way splitter and went direct to AverMedia tuner card on PC - very good signals, got three missing channels back.
3. Noted the old splitter had 2 (7.9?) hi db outs and 1 low db (3.8?) out.
4. Replaced the splitter with a new one, at 1m khz and hi db outs. Channels returned to all three tuners.
5. Splits 2 and 3 running an average of 35-40% signals on existing coax. Split 1 (Avermedia) running at 4 green bars - but all three tuners see signal drift - up and down.
6. The old splitter was dripping rain water from the inside. No doubt the splitter had moisture causing some of the problem. Replacing it returned the signals.
7. Had a second coax (from dual head sat dish) and substituted this as final test. A little lower averages for splits 2 and 3 - about 32-38% signal strength, but some less signal strength drift. Split 1 has same 4 green bars (of 5) no matter the coax used.

Specifically 2.1 (UHF 44) is drifting with a day time signal strength drift between 33-38%. channel 2.2 (UHF 45?) is drifting with a day time signal strength between 35-38%. Channel 6.1 (UHF 40) is drifting between 38-42% day time signal strength. Not great, but: replacing the splitter gave me channels back on all three tuners and, at present, I am not getting a lot of digital breakup on any of the tuners.

But, I do fear that the night signals will worsen and I'll have problems getting 2.1 and 2.2 or even a quality signal on 6.1, come 9-10 PM.

One other thing worth noting: while the 3-way splitter was outside the weatherproof box, channels 32.1, 32.2 and 33.3 suddenly started having very bad signals. As soon as the splitter was installed back into the plastic outdoor weather box those channels came back in strong. (Weird, as it's plastic, not metal.) I mention this because I think this is continued evidence that I am getting external signal interference that can wreak havoc on certain channels. I now have to wonder if 2.1, 2.2 and 6.1 are getting some kind of interfering signal that causes the signal to stay suppressed in the 40% strength range and drift 2-5%.

In fairness, replaced coax and balun did not improve my signal problem (they remain installed anyway), though the coax replacement may have reduced some signal percentage drift. Replacing the splitter got the weak signaled channels back.

I remain interested in any other suggestions. Thanks to all who have helped thus far.
PDXComposer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-Nov-2011, 4:44 PM   #10
PDXComposer
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 6
As I expected, the signal strength dropped as light faded into evening. Split 3, to a LCD digital TV, would have periodic drops of 0% signal strength on channels 2.1 and 2.2. 2.1 was a slightly stronger signal, in the red with a drift around 27-29% signal strength. Picture would freeze and repixilate every once in a while. Channel 2.2 was worse, at 25-27% signal strength and regular picture problems. 6.1 was pretty good and maintained a pretty close to 40% signal strength.

Split 2, to the RCA digital receiver, maintained the same antenna signal strength, but had periodic drifts dropping lower - causing both 2.1 and 2.2 to have intermittent picture problems. 6.1 was unaffected.

Split 1, to the Avermedia tuner card, had no signal change, with all 3 channels showing 4 green bars. Channels 2.1 and 6.1 had no problems, but channel 2.2 had occasional picture freeze.

So this much is now clear: reception of channels 2.1 and 2.2 diminish at night, do so to a degree to all three tuners, but seems to be worse going to the tuners with slightly longer runs from the splitter. Those two coax runs were installed by satellite guys from DirecTV so I trust cable and wall connections are properly constructed/shielded.

While I await other comments here, I am going to replace the coax cables from wall to devices, to see if this improves signal strength (or reduces interference.) I appreciate any added comments/ideas.
PDXComposer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-Nov-2011, 5:11 PM   #11
PDXComposer
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 6
I got this reception test result from AntennaWeb:

* red
uhf KATU-DT 2.1 ABC PORTLAND, OR 251° 2.0 43
* red
uhf K14HN-D 49.1 MNT VANCOUVER, WA 36° 20.1 14
red
vhf KRCW-LP 5 CW SALEM, OR 251° 2.0 5
red
uhf KOXI-CA 19 IND CAMAS, WA 36° 20.1 19
* red
vhf KPTV-DT 12.1 FOX PORTLAND, OR 260° 2.7 12
* red
uhf KPXG-DT 22.1 ION SALEM, OR 261° 2.6 22
* red
uhf KRCW-DT 32.1 CW SALEM, OR 251° 2.0 33
* red
uhf KPDX-DT 49.1 MNT VANCOUVER, WA 260° 2.7 30
* red
uhf KOIN-DT 6.1 CBS PORTLAND, OR 251° 2.0 40

It recommends a CEA-certified medium directional antenna for RED area. Dunno if my Denny's EZHD antenna is that. But, looking at this chart, 2.1 and 6.1 are my biggest signal problems, 49.1 an occasional problem - with some evidence that 32.1 can be affected as well. Interestingly, these are all in the red range at 251 degrees azimuth. (12 and 22 are never a problem and the rest I do not get at all, but they come from much further away.)
PDXComposer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Go Back   TV Fool > Over The Air Services > Help With Reception



Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT. The time now is 4:40 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright © TV Fool, LLC