SMATV question

CheeseFoodProduct · 10-Oct-2011, 6:46 PM

I'm trying to help a friend who lives on the 5th floor an old building in San Francisco. I think I've got a pretty good handle on getting him hooked up with an OTA antenna but his building's in-house cable is pretty poor, very snowy. So, I'm wondering, without having the benefit of any measuring devices, would the reception of his in-house cable improve by adding a passive amp to his coax? An FM trap? but I think that would necessitate an active amp. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks so much!

John Candle · 10-Oct-2011, 7:42 PM

As the other question askers do , Do This--> http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=4 , Use the exact address and for the 5th floor make the antenna height 50 feet.

John Candle · 10-Oct-2011, 7:54 PM

SMATV is Satellite Master Antenna TV. Most SMATV systems have some satellite services and broadcast tv services. Many of the older systems have long ago fallen into disrepair. Is your main concern the reception of the digital broadcast tv transmissions??

GroundUrMast · 10-Oct-2011, 8:06 PM

An amplifier is an active device. "passive amp" would be synonymous with 'passive active device'...

The closest thing I can think of that would fit the description of a 'passive amplifier' would be an antenna with relative gain. Antenna gain is better than amplifier gain. Antenna gain offers additional signal power with no additional noise or distortion of the signal. Amplifiers also offer additional signal power but add noise and distortion.

If the old cable has been damaged by water, corrosion or physical cuts or crushing, etc. it needs to be replaced. The same is true of the antenna.

The least effective solution is the addition of an amplifier near the receiver. All of the noise, distortion and interference up to that point will be amplified as well... then the new amplifier will add its noise and distortion on top of that.

Focus on the antenna, if it's not up to the task, you won't fix the situation with down stream accessories. Once you have a quality signal from the antenna, then focus on the need for a preamp or distribution amp. If amplification is needed, the right choice is important, you need to know how strong the signals are going into the amplifier and you need to know how much loss is down stream of the amplifier. You may not need any amplifier. Finally, cable and splitters need to be chosen and installed correctly.

As JC has requested, you'll need to provide a link to a TV Fool report for the location along with a complete description of existing antenna(s), combiners, receivers, muxes, modulators, amplifiers, cable lengths, numbers of sets connected, etc. Do you have access to the existing hardware in place, and the right to adjust, replace or repair all parts of the system? This sounds like a system owned and maintained (though not very well) by the building owner, not your friend.

Without full access to the system, your friend may be stuck, depending on the owner of the system to make repairs or adjustments.

CheeseFoodProduct · 10-Oct-2011, 10:02 PM

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...60b596cbcfb2a1

My goal is to gift my friend with as many quality TV channels as cheaply as possible. The location is an 'Art Hotel.' When the current owners purchased the location, there were several long term residence they couldn't kick out. The resident's SMATV TV reception is of no real concern to the owners. No help will be coming from them. As someone who's stayed in one of the rental rooms, I can assure you TV reception is of no real concern to management in general.
My plan is to use and A/B switch & 35 feet of coax to find a sweet spot on the Eastward facing window wall (he's on the 5th/top floor) and hopefully wall mount an omni-directional Axis DVB-T9001 and just leave it there... no future adjusting. I'm open to any input on this plan!
In my research, which I did before I found this great site, I kept coming across antenna options like amplified antennas, non amplified, FM traps, etc. which got me wondering if there was anything that could be done 'in room' to improve my friend's SMATV reception. I know the wiring is old rg 59, he's near the end of the hall and possibly near the end of the cable run so I wondered...
Passive in line amp
http://www.summitsource.com/product_...oducts_id=4643
Active amp with FM trap
http://www.summitsource.com/10-db-di...ed-p-8029.html
But of course I have no access to any sort of measurement devices to test his in room signal. Thanks for your interest and your help!

John Candle · 10-Oct-2011, 10:04 PM

In the old days , SMATV and MATV systems were wired with RG-59 coax and if it's really old the wiring was RG-59 coax with the foil shied that was not bonded to the foam that surrounds the center wire of the coax. Also these old SMATV , MATV systems used directional couplers , the directional couplers look like splitters but are not splitters. As time goes along , those that do not know what they are doing replace the directional couplers with splitters and also mess up the wiring because they do not know what they are doing. Then some one else jumps in and tries to get reception and it goes down hill from there.

John Candle · 12-Oct-2011, 5:52 AM

I recommend one of these simple Non Amplified indoor antennas. http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=233 aimed at about 200 degree magnetic compass. Here is how to aim indoor antennas , http://www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html. I Do Not recommend using a amplifier of any type or kind , the tv transmissions are very strong at the receive location , a amplifier will likely make the reception worse by amplifing reflected signals created by the building.

John Candle · 12-Oct-2011, 5:59 AM

Most of the english language stations/channels are to the south west.

GroundUrMast · 12-Oct-2011, 9:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CheeseFoodProduct

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...60b596cbcfb2a1

... I know the wiring is old rg 59, he's near the end of the hall and possibly near the end of the cable run so I wondered...
Passive in line amp
http://www.summitsource.com/product_...oducts_id=4643
Active amp with FM trap
http://www.summitsource.com/10-db-di...ed-p-8029.html
But of course I have no access to any sort of measurement devices to test his in room signal. Thanks for your interest and your help!

Ah... I see where you came up with the term 'passive amp'. The

Quote:

Satellite Dish In-line Amplifier Signal LNB 20 dB TV Antenna Digital Booster Coax Cable DSS DBS Dish Outdoor Video Channels, 950 - 2050 MHz DC Passive, 13 - 18 VDC, Part # LAA

at summitsource.com is designed for use on long runs between a satellite dish and receiver. Power is normally sent from the satellite receiver through the coax to the dish to power the LNB/LNA at the dish. The advertised amplifier is designed to use some of that normal power source and pass the voltage and current onto the LNB/LNA out at the dish... hence the the term 'DC passive'. The amplifier itself is an active device. On top of all that, your friends' TV tuner will not send power up the line to power that amplifier or anything else.

Notice the frequency range, 950 MHz to 2050 MHz... that range does not include any of the over-the-air frequencies. The product is for use in satellite receiving systems only. So, even if you figured out a way to send power up the coax, it would make your friends' problem worse, possibly blocking all OTA frequencies and you would be sending power into equipment you don't own, risking damage to it or your power source.

The other amplifier is a cheap, low gain, moderate to high noise device despite what the ad copy says. It would be a waste of money IMO.

Sorry I don't have more helpful input.

I think your plan to use an indoor antenna is the best course. Building construction may or may not interfere with OTA reception. The only way to know for sure is to try.

CheeseFoodProduct · 12-Oct-2011, 2:21 PM

Thanks so much for all the help! I did some more looking based on your input. I'm kinda partial to the TERK/AUDIOVOX HDTVi and the Philips SDV2710/27. Would anyone care to recommend one over the other for my situation? Again, I'm going in with 30' of RG-6 coax cable & the goal of finding the best possible location for the antenna NOW knowing that the most of what I really want is coming from the southwest at about 200º magnetic compass.
GroundUrMast, I found your input very helpful! You saved me from buying something I didn't need. For that price... I might have given it a shot. Who knows?

John Candle · 13-Oct-2011, 12:55 AM

The design of the UHF reception element of the HDTVi gives the HDTVi antenna a slight edge in reception , However the base of the HDTVi is very narrow and the antenna tends to fall over. The SDV2710/27 has a nice wide base and does not fall over.

CheeseFoodProduct · 13-Oct-2011, 11:19 PM

I decided to go with the Terk HDTVi. With free shipping it was a better bargain than the Phillips. I don't return to SF until the 1st week in December but I'll post an update after the installation. Thanks again for all the help!

CheeseFoodProduct · 10-Jan-2012, 4:37 PM

Success! Well... we did pretty good. We were able to pick up 21 regular channels and with the sub channels a total of 58 channels. Granted, some of these channels are in Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese, Spanish and a couple are radio stations but it's all about options & now my friend Bob has more options than before. All the channels come in very well and there's lots of HD which his in house cable has none of. In fact he now has the most channels and best reception in the building. We were hoping to pick up the THIS TV Network but no luck there. Other than that, no complaints. Thanks for all the help!

GroundUrMast · 10-Jan-2012, 5:15 PM

Have you been able to receive KTNC, real CH-14, VC-42.3 on an azimuth of 62° compass? It sounds as if that signal would be coming from the 'wrong' side of the building.

Both the thistv.com and rabbitears.info websites indicate ThisTV is available.

CheeseFoodProduct · 10-Jan-2012, 5:31 PM

Thanks for the asking, GroundUrMast!
I'm gonna try to get Bob to field this question as he's in San Francisco & I'm back in Florida. But as I recall, I was specifically looking for a Channel 42 and there was nothing there regardless of the antenna's direction or how many times we scanned.

GroundUrMast · 10-Jan-2012, 5:37 PM

You're right, the virtual channel is expected to be 42.3 based on the sources I cited earlier. The building may be blocking the signal to some degree given that KTNC is ENE of your friend's location.