North Dallas antenna question

vanderwel · 10-Mar-2011, 2:09 AM

Hey Ya'll,

Here is my TV Fool report and I was wondering if I could get some suggestions for recommended antenna's.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...c77aea228a6255

I am looking for the smallest profile antenna that would work for me. I don't much care for the look of an outdoor antenna, but I know that because of my distance from the stations that I will require one(I also have a radiant barrier install in the attic so an in attic antenna is not an option). I would like to keep the antenna as small as possible and have been looking at the Clearstream 5. I am however a little worried that this antenna might not work for me because not one of my signals come from line of sight.

I know I'm asking a lot, but I would really like as low profile antenna as possible while still picking up the major broadcasting stations.

Thanks for your suggestions.

Matt

John Candle · 10-Mar-2011, 2:26 AM

The clearstream 5 antenna is made for VHF high channels 7 thru 13 . Your reception location has channels in all 3 television bands VHF low 2 thru 6 , VHF high channels 7 thru 13 and UHF 14 thru 69 . Read and understand this about , Real Digital Tv Channels , Virtual Digital Tv Channels , Analog Tv Channels. http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=695 . Mount a Winegard HD7084P on the top side of the roof. Point the antenna at about 189 magnetic compass reading. Here is information of antenna pointing , http://www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html . . Use a Strong and Sturdy antenna mount such as a , tripod antenna mount , peak of the roof eave mount , chimney mount. Here are places to buy Tv antennas and etc.. http://3starinc.com , http://www.solidsignal.com , http://www.starkelectronic.com , http://www.amazon.com

John Candle · 10-Mar-2011, 2:27 AM

How many Tv's will be connected????

vanderwel · 10-Mar-2011, 2:39 AM

Just one TV right now expanding to two in the near future. I will be running my antenna through a home network that has a leviton in line 25 decible amp. The coax from the antenna hook up to the amp is about 30 feet. The amp runs into a 6 port tv hub, but I have all the coax leads capped off except for the one I am using.

GroundUrMast · 10-Mar-2011, 2:41 AM

The CS-5 will do well covering the VHF channels, particularly 7 through 13.

The CS-5 is not a high or even medium gain UHF antenna which is a bit of concern given the long list of stations on real channel 14 and up, most with 1 and 2 edge paths as well.

If you install the CS-5 and find it not quite enough antenna, will you be open to the idea of adding a second UHF specific antenna?

Or, go with a combination UHF / H-VHF such as the Winegard HD7694P and get the coverage and gain you need to have stable, reliable reception at your location. It is smaller than the former 'all-channel' antennas because it omits coverage of the low VHF channels 2 - 6.

vanderwel · 10-Mar-2011, 2:58 AM

Hey Guys,

Thanks for all the help so far, my biggest concern besides the size of the antenna is that I receive all the major networks(ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX). I'm not looking to get every fringe channel out there. It looks like from my novice opinion that I could receive channels 8-50 with a VHF-HI and a UHF combination antenna like the Clearstream 5. If I'm way off base here please let me know because I'm only an internet expert right now. I would be very open to adding another UHF antenna if I need to in the future.

John,
Thanks for your article about the new HDTV channel segregation. It was a very helpful article.

GroundUrMast · 10-Mar-2011, 3:01 AM

The math says CS-5 will likely do what you want. You may have trouble with signal fading due to the edge paths, but you won't know till you put an antenna up. Normally I would like a bit better cushion.

vanderwel · 10-Mar-2011, 3:04 AM

Would a pre-amp help that fading?

GroundUrMast · 10-Mar-2011, 3:10 AM

Amplifiers can not do the job of the antenna. They amplify both the background noise and the desired signal while adding noise generated in the amplifier. If you put too much signal into an amplifier, it will overload, rarely a safety issue, but the output of the amplifier will be distorted and leave you with less, not more viewable signals. Therefor, rule of thumb: Don't use more than one amplifier in a system, the second amplifier will very likely be overloaded.

Use amplification to deal with the loss in the cable and splitters that are down stream of the antenna.

(Your existing Leviton amplifier has plenty of gain. I am assuming it is a Leviton 4810-VA, an accessory component designed to fit the Leviton structure wiring cabinets. The manufactures' published documentation does not state a noise figure, so without lab grade test equipment it's impossible to know how much noise it will add to the signal from the antenna.)

vanderwel · 10-Mar-2011, 3:26 AM

After looking at the two recommended antennas I think I'm going with your recomendation "GroundUrMast". I like that the antenna is not huge and seems to do well by all the reviews. I did notice that the specifications show that the antenna is for 30 to 35 mile range. Do you think this should be a concern for me? Thanks again for your help.

GroundUrMast · 10-Mar-2011, 4:02 AM

Mileage is a number that originates in the marketing department. It's useful for sales people who have to relate to customers who understandably have no knowledge of the standards based measurements expressed in decibels.

Here is the manufactures published specifications for the HD7694. Notice there is no reference to mileage... This information comes from the folks in engineering. I have a high degree of confidence that if I were to use calibrated test equipment, I would see a production example produce theses gain and directivity results.

Other manufactures such as Antennas Direct, Antennacraft, RCA, Wade, Blonder Tongue, etc. offer similar information. With the predicted signal strength tools TVF offers and trustworthy data from the antenna vendor we can calculate with far better accuracy than if we used a vague or arbitrary mileage estimate.

I have very little confidence in antenna products that only offer mileage claims.

ADTech · 10-Mar-2011, 12:11 PM

You've received some good advice (and some not-so good). Unless you want to watch 24 hour infomercials or watch the static slide of a Spanish-language religious Franken-FM station, low-VHF is pointless.

The C5 is best described as a medium to long range high-VHF and a short to medium range UHF antenna. Of course, "ranges" are all relative and are suggestions given to try to relate an antenna's performance with a reference that a typical consumer might relate to. It's highly imperfect, but it's not going to go away from any of the antenna manufacturers.

Given your TVFool plot, I'd say the C5 has a fair chance of being successful for the DFW stations. If you were calling in, I'd strongly recommend that you be prepared to add a separate UHF antenna such as the DB4, C4, or 42XG be used in conjunction with the C5.

You have several options open to you:

1) You could use a small-to-medium 7-69 combo as was suggested for full coverage of your major stations. This will be a traditional type of antenna.

2) You could select a UHF antenna such as the DB4, C4, or 42XG. This will probably cost reception of WFAA and KFWD. These two stations are the only ones that REQUIRE high-VHF capability (KTVT simulcasts on UHF channel 19).

3) Go with the C5 and be prepared to add the UHF antenna should it be needed.

FYI, the tech data sheet for the C5 (written by our design engineer) is located here: http://www.antennasdirect.com/cmss_f...20with_uhf.pdf

A tip sheet for using the C5 and a UHF antenna is available here: http://www.antennasdirect.com/cmss_f...werpoint_2.pdf

Anecdotally, I got a message this week from a customer in Frisco who has his C5 in his attic and has excellent reception. He isn't the typical user (he has his own hand held spectrum analyzer/signal meter) and posts on other forums his results of various antennas.

vanderwel · 30-Mar-2011, 10:41 PM

First of all thank you everyone for all of your help. I purchased a Clearstream 4&5 and I am using them together and they are working very well with a direct line to the TV. Now a second problem has crept up on me. When I run the antenna through my Steren 550-010 video telecom master moduel I loose so much signal that most of my channels are un-viewable. I expected this to happen because of the loss associated with a 6 way splitter so I purchased a Leviton 48210-va variable gain distribution amplifier expecting that to take care of the signal loss. To my surprise the amplifier has not been able to make the loss on some of the channels.
Does anyone think that maybe a pre-amp mounted up on the antenna mast might perform a better job than the leviton distribution amp? I have checked all of the coax connections with a Klein coax explorer tester and they all test good. My setup has my cable running directly from the antenna to the distribution hub and then splittling 6 times to various places in my house. My longest cable run is 35 feet.
Here are my questions:
1. Should I get a pre-amp?
2. Will a pre-amp do a better job than the distribution amp?(my run from the antenna to the distribution hub is 35 feet)
3. If I get a pre-amp should I use it in conjunction with the distribution amp?
4. any other suggestions would be appreciated

GroundUrMast · 30-Mar-2011, 10:57 PM

So far, I have only found marketing oriented documentation for the 550-010. No technical specs or manual.

I notice that the module has a power input jack, is the 9V power module connected and is the LED lit? I suspect the 550-010 contains a distribution amplifier, not just a splitter. If I'm correct, an un-powered distribution amplifier will not act as a passive splitter and you will not be able to 'push' signal through it with another amplifier.

Are all unused output ports capped with 75 ohm F-terminators?

Do you have access to a passive splitter, if so, how does it perform?

Rule of thumb: One amplifier can be too many, two amplifiers are too many.

vanderwel · 30-Mar-2011, 11:57 PM

I'll give a passive splitter a try. I never thought that hub had a amp in it, but it just might. Thought the led was for the alarm bypass system on the phone hub side. Do you have a six way splitter you would recommend? I would like to have one that attaches to the leviton structured media box. If not no big deal I appreciate all the info.

GroundUrMast · 31-Mar-2011, 12:20 AM

http://www.3starinc.com/power_passin..._splitter.html

Most splitters are multiples of a basic 2-way design which is why you will commonly see 2, 4 and 8 port designs. Look close at most 3-way splitters and you may notice that one of the output ports has less loss than the other two. That's because internally, the devise is two, 2-way splitters in series.

Your Leviton DA will be able to drive the 6 or 8-way split. If you have problems, run an FM fool report. We would be looking for possible sources of interference or overload. No need to be pessimistic.

vanderwel · 31-Mar-2011, 2:44 AM

GYM, you are the man! If we ever meet, your favorite beverage is on me! The steren 550-010 is an amplified hub. I hooked the TV through it and pulled the power....blam....the TV signal died. I go and get a passive splitter tomorrow and let you know the outcome. Thanks for the help.

vanderwel · 11-Apr-2011, 5:50 AM

New Update,
I dumped the stren amplified splitter and went with a passive 6 way spliter. I am getting great reception. I do have one other odd development that happened that I cant explain. I was only able to get a very weak signal for most stations when I placed the antenna in several different locations on the roof, so out of frustration I decided to try the antenna in the attic. I immediately received all of the channels I wanted and many of the ones I could care less about. The antenna now points through the brick siding of my house on a southerly course and I am enjoying free tv. Does anyone believe this has anything to do with the radiant barrier in my attic? thanks again for all your help.

GroundUrMast · 12-Apr-2011, 2:25 AM

Could the radiant barrier work in your favor? If you're fortunate, yes. But for most it adds an unpredictable element that usually works against good reception.

Factors such as building construction and vegetation are not included in the signal strength prediction.

It will be interesting to see how stable your reception is over time and through wet weather.

That you are enjoying a good signal is good to hear.