Antenna Install Recommendations

[treefrog]

Hi all,

Please see the link below. I am looking to continue my "cable free" experience and install are rooftop antenna on the house we are moving into (I had installed an Antenna Craft on the last house). This time, I would like to ensure the antenna is an HDTV antenna that has it's own motor so I can rotate remotely.

From the signal analysis report below, do you have any recommendations for the type of antenna I should look into?

Thanks in advance for taking the time to respond and let me know if I need more info.

Happy Thanksgiving...


http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...b97d977bfbf277

[rabbit73]

Happy Thanksgiving, treefrog

The antenna for your weak signals will be very large, and is determined by the real channels you want.

VHF-Low, real channels 2-6
VHF-High, real channels 7-13
UHF, real channels 14-51

If you want these real channels, it will need to be an all channel antenna like a Winegard HD8200P:
3 WJLP Me-TV
4 WPXO MundoMax
6 WRGB CBS
2 WKOB IQRA TV

If you can do without them, you can use a VHF-High/UHF combo antenna like the Winegard HD7698P.

It's a hard choice, because CBS with a good signal is rare on your report.
http://www.rabbitears.info/search.ph...pe=dBm&height=

The Channel Master CM9521A TV Antenna Rotator seems to be popular, but I don't have any personal experience with it. If you want a heavy duty rotator that lasts longer, you will need to upgrade to a ham radio rotator, which is more expensive.

There is one strong local FM signal, but the FM filter in your preamp should take care of it:
http://www.fmfool.com/modeling/tmp/2...c/Radar-FM.png

WZME has a signal power of -65.5 dBm.

The max inpui of the CM7777 preamp is 15 dBmV = -34 dBm
http://www.channelmaster.com/TV_Ante..._p/cm-7777.htm

The 7777 is easily overloaded.

-65.5 dBm + antenna gain 12 dB = -53.5 dBm, OK

-53.5 dBm + 30 dB preamp gain = -23.5 dBm which is below tuner overload, OK

[treefrog]

Rabbit 73, thank you so much for the detailed response and the options you provided. Is the Winegard flatwave outdoor out of the question?

[rabbit73]

Is the Winegard flatwave outdoor out of the question?

If you mean the Winegard FlatWave Air FL6550A Amplified Outdoor HDTV Antenna, my guess is that it would get some of the strongest channels that you want, but not all of them. You are certainly welcome to try it if you want to experiment. You would then have a basis of comparison for a larger antenna.

The Flatwave Air contains a low gain antenna element combined with an integrated amp that tries to compensate for the low gain of the antenna element. The problem is that if a good signal isn't coming out of the antenna element, an amp can't create one; GIGO. I prefer to use an antenna with a little more gain and add an amp if needed.

[treefrog]

Hello,

I just mounted the antenna and have a few stations (pointed south I get 43, 33, 49). I'd like to get FOX (32 or 5.1) so I'm going to go back up and change the azimuth.

My question is: Would I benefit from a preamp and rotator? If so, do you have any recommendations with a Winegard Platinum HD8200U?

Thanks for your input.

[rabbit73]

I just mounted the antenna and have a few stations (pointed south I get 43, 33, 49). I'd like to get FOX (32 or 5.1) so I'm going to go back up and change the azimuth.

What antenna did you mount?

[treefrog]

Sorry for the confusion. I mounted the Winegaard 8200u monster. Right now it is directed south, and after reviewing the tv fool report, it appears it should be rotated toward the northwest if I'm going to have any chance in picking up CBS or FOX. The antenna is mounted on the roof (gable) and sits about 2-3 feet above the roofline (2.5 story colonial). I ran 100 ft of coaxial down to the basement where I have connected the line to a coaxial that goes up to a tv on the first floor. Thanks in advance for your reply.

[treefrog]

Also, In looking at the "rabbit ears" report you posted, should I be trying to target the New York or Hartford stations?

[rabbit73]

My question is: Would I benefit from a preamp and rotator? If so, do you have any recommendations with a Winegard Platinum HD8200U?

You do need a preamp, with those weak signals and the long coax run. The Channel Master 7777 has a lot of gain but is only for weak signal areas like yours because it is easily overloaded. The 7778 has a little less gain but is more resistant to overload. Both have an FM filter which should be IN because you have a strong local FM signal (WRKI) in the NW direction.

I answered your question about a rotator in post #2 that the CM9521A is popular, but a light duty rotator. Unless you are happy with one direction, you will probably be rotating your antenna a lot because your signals are in many directions, so a heavy duty ham rotator, like a Hy-Gain or Yaesu, would last longer.
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q...ntenna+rotator
http://www.hy-gain.com/Categories.php?sub=0&ref=64
http://www.dxengineering.com/search/section/rotators

When you use a rotator, your TV should be able to add a channel after scan like a Sony, otherwise you will need to rescan after every direction change.

Also, In looking at the "rabbit ears" report you posted, should I be trying to target the New York or Hartford stations?

First you look at the rabbitears list to see what is listed and then you look at your tvfool report to see what are the strongest signals.

You are going to need to experiment because the tvfool report is known to be less accurate with 2Edge signals.

[treefrog]

UGH! So, purchased the Channel Master 7777, set up the ladders on the roof again and installed it. The actual preamp is located about 1.5 - 2ft lower than the antenna on the mast. I connected the coaxial cable(s) as described in the manual. While I was up on the ladder, I turned the antenna toward 219 azimuth in an attempt to get FOX and CBS out of New York.

I then went into the attic where the line is coming through the house and followed it to a junction spot (50 ft end) because this where there is one attic light. I installed a 120V outlet from the attic light and installed the Channel Master supplied splitter. I then plugged in the power supply and connected the "TV end" coaxial to the line running to the TV set.

The moment of truth...ran a channel scan on the TV and NO CHANNELS! I realized I needed to do some trouble shooting. I checked the outlet I installed in the attic to make sure there was power. I then decided to get up on the ladder, disconnect the preamp and reconnect the original line I had (prior to the preamp), disconnect the splitter and power supply and recheck to see if I was still getting some channels without the preamp. Voila! I got channels. So, I thought it may be the short coaxial cable I installed from the preamp to the antenna, so I went back up on the ladder, took down the short coaxial and connected it between my TV to the wall cable outlet. I got channels so that cable must have been good. I then reconnected all cables correctly to the preamp (back to the antenna, reinstalled the splitter and power supply) and retested...NO CHANNELS.

Frustrating to say the least. So, I can get a few channels without the preamp, but once installed, I get no channels. Thoughts? I was really trying to be able to see football this weekend!

Thanks for any input...

[rabbit73]

Sorry to hear you are having trouble; it should work if my analysis is correct. Maybe ADTech will check my analysis.

There is a Channel Master troubleshooting page for the 7777:
http://support.channelmaster.com/hc/...ing-correctly-

What you call a splitter should be the PCT power inserter, and it sounds like you connected it correctly.

If you connected it correctly, then it could be equipment failure, or an unknown source of overload. I gave the link to your FM signals and you should have the FM filter in which is the default position.
http://www.fmfool.com/modeling/tmp/2...c/Radar-FM.png

The FM report that I did was based on my estimate of your location. Please go here and do your own FM report:
http://www.fmfool.com/index.php?opti...pper&Itemid=29

If everything is OK according to the CM troubleshooting page, the only other thing to try is an attenuator between the antenna and the input of the 7777.

If you are having cellular interference, the Antennas Direct Juice preamp is resistant to overload and has a 4G LTE filter to block cellular interference, but it doesn't have an FM filter which could be added.

[treefrog]

I'll try the troubleshooting link you sent...I've do most of their suggestions, but haven't checked voltage on input/output coaxes.

Do these sound like symptoms for possible overloading or install/product problems? I'm thinking my next recourse is to try another preamp...Winegard LNA-200? Is that even worth the time and effort or should the Channel Master be working?

[rabbit73]

Do the CM troubleshooting first, especially the voltage measurements. Be careful not to short the center conductor to the shield when making the measurements.

Next try an attenuator between the antenna and the preamp input. One or two splitters can be used for an attenuator. A 2-way splitter has a loss of 3.5 dB; a 4-way is 7 dB.
https://www.antennasdirect.com/store...ttenuator.html
http://www.3starinc.com/drop_in-line_attenuator.html
http://mjsales.net/collections/atten...ant=1083705673
•Attenuation values 1, 3, 6, 8, 10, 12, 16, 20dB (FAM)
click on 1 dB for other values; the up and down arrows are faint

The AD Juice or CM7778 would be a better choice than the WG LNA200.

Do these sound like symptoms for possible overloading or install/product problems?

Could be any one of them; you must eliminate each possibility.

should the Channel Master be working?

Yes, it should be working, that's what you paid for, but could be defective.

Another possibility is electrical interference. It is strongest on VHF-low and your antenna covers that band.

You can test that theory by inserting a UVSJ (high and common ports) between the antenna and the input of the preamp. This will allow only UHF signals into the preamp.

It is possible to measure interference, but you would need a spectrum analyzer or a signal level meter which is why I have suggested inexpensive tests.

Your tvfool report was only resolved to street level. A more accurate report should be done with exact address or coordinates, which will not show in the report. We have found that 2Edge reports can be way off, and when you are on the fringe, the coverage is very spotty. A small change in location can make a big difference in signal strength; much stronger or much weaker.

Use the interactive map browser and move the indicator to your antenna location.
http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?opti...pper&Itemid=90

[treefrog]

Thank you very much for your detailed reply and I'm assuming your are under quite a blanket of snow at the moment!

My troubleshooting steps did not get very far...

...following the Channel Master troubleshooting instructions, I disconnected the the coax from the power inserter that goes to the amp. I then used a multimeter and connected on lead to the center pin on the coax and then the other lead to the metal casing (set the coax to volts..."20" max). There was no read out. So I then disconnected the DC-IN (powered) coax from the power inserted and used the same method to test the voltage. Voila! There was a read out (ranged from 18 - 20 volts or so). This tells me the power coax is distributing power, but that current is not flowing out of power inserter at the AMP end. According to Channel Master, this indicates a faulty power inserter.

My question is this: I have read that certain amps don't need power inserters, but I think the 7777 requires a power inserter. Am I correct?

My next question (this is born of my desire to get this working before tomorrow): Is there any work around given that I don't see how I'd get a replacement in time? Are there any generic power inserters that I might find at a local store?

Thanks again in advance!

[treefrog]

I'm assuming connecting a regular splitter in the place of the power inserter would fry the TV?

[treefrog]

According to the attached image, FOX in NY appears to "relatively" strong.. (SW direction)

[rabbit73]

It does sound like a bad power inserter. I'm wondering if it was bad when you received it, or did something cause it to go bad after you got it. The power transformer has a device that protects it from a coax short, but the power inserter might not survive a short in the coax going to the 7777.

I'm assuming connecting a regular splitter in the place of the power inserter would fry the TV?

It might damage the TV and fry the splitter. A power inserter contains a capacitor that keeps the voltage out of the TV but allows the signals through.

The PCTMPI1G power inserter has markings on the label to show the correct way to connect the cables. The side marked “To Amp” should never be connected to the TV. This port will have 12VDC on it, and it is possible that older TVs can be damaged by that voltage. Newer TVs should be protected, but not all may be protected.

http://www.channelmaster.com/Amplifi...p/pctmpi1g.htm

My question is this: I have read that certain amps don't need power inserters, but I think the 7777 requires a power inserter. Am I correct?

yes

My next question (this is born of my desire to get this working before tomorrow): Is there any work around given that I don't see how I'd get a replacement in time?

Only if you have a tech friend who could make one from parts from a local Radio Shack. A power inserter is also known as a power injector or bias Tee:
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=bias+tee

Emergency solution would be to buy a preamp like a Winegard LNA 200 or a RCA TVPRAMP1R from a local Walmart, Home Depot, or BestBuy.

A local Radio Shack might have a preamp.

What channel do you need right away? Can you get it without the preamp if you have a temporary short coax line directly from the antenna to a TV?

[rabbit73]

According to the attached image, FOX in NY appears to "relatively" strong.. (SW direction)

Which Fox is that, WNYW real channel 32, NM -6.9 dB or WNYW real channel 44, NM -8.2 dB? They don't look very strong to me.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...ALLTV%26n%3d21
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...ALLTV%26n%3d26

The coverage for 5.1 looks very spotty in your area. You are on the fringe.

[shoman94]

Originally Posted by treefrog

I disconnected the the coax from the power inserter that goes to the amp. I then used a multimeter and connected on lead to the center pin on the coax and then the other lead to the metal casing (set the coax to volts..."20" max). There was no read out.

cable>>inserter>>>>Preamp>>antenna
^^You disconnected here? And checked the cable there?
If so you wouldn't get juice there because the juice comes out of the inserter. I'm asking because that's how I read what you did.

You should disconnect the cable coming from the inserter at the preamp and test the cable there. If nothing then insert another known cable on the inserter output in the attic and test it again.

If you tested the output side of the inserter directly with no cable you likely need a small paper clip to get in the hole deep enough for a reading.

Originally Posted by treefrog

So I then disconnected the DC-IN (powered) coax from the power inserted and used the same method to test the voltage. Voila! There was a read out (ranged from 18 - 20 volts or so). This tells me the power coax is distributing power, but that current is not flowing out of power inserter at the AMP end. According to Channel Master, this indicates a faulty power inserter.

So here you tested the power coax going from the outlet to the inserter?