antenna recommendation

[NATURE]

Hi all, glad to be here. I have an RCA 751 but I'm just not happy with the results and I thought I would get the consensus of those much more knowledgeable before I made my next purchase. Here's my report http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...60ed072869f066 I'm running 3 sets through an unbalanced splitter. Two of the runs are relatively short but the 3rd and main run is 60-70 feet to a TIVO OTA. I was looking at the Antennas Direct Element or Clearstream 2MAX but now I'm thinking bigger based on some other recommendations I've gotten. I would prefer a single antenna setup that can reliably get both Milwaukee and Chicago but the DB8E that was recommended is kind heavy for my tastes. The Winegard HD7694P was also recommended but I was curious about aiming. Currently the 751 is aimed at Milwaukee but I do pick up a little off the backside from Chicago so could I aim a 7694P at Chicago and pick up Milwaukee with better results? I do have a Kitztech KT200 if needed. Thanks for any help you can give me.

[JoeAZ]

Welcome Nature,

The reports we get recently are missing stations in
just about every tv market. In your Milwaukee market,
I see WTMJ missing and possibly others as well. You
are doing well with the RCA 751 for the Milwaukee stations.
You need to find a way to get the run from the antenna
to each tv set shorter. 60-70 feet from the splitter kills
signals. There is no way around the need for a second
antenna aimed at Chicago. The Winegard 7694p would
be a good choice, especially with the repack coming.
I hope you are using RG6 cable and not RG59. Since it
seems you are doing OK without any amplification, I
would try to avoid it, if possible.

[NATURE]

Thanks for the reply. 60-70 feet is from the antenna, probably about 40 feet from the splitter(RG-6). The 751 is not picking up like I would like but I blame it on the splitter, the semi long run and the 4 tuner TIVO. I could just add the pre-amp but if I have to get up on the roof anyway, I would rather put the best antenna up at the same time. Not getting Chicago is not a deal breaker for me, but I wouldn't mind accidentally picking up some of it. That's why I was looking at the element(no reflector).
My main concerns are reliability of picture and needing only a single, lighter weight antenna. If there is any other information I can provide to help you help me, I would be happy to provide it.

[JoeAZ]

The "element" would not likely have enough gain to receive
Chicago stations reliably. Since you are adverse to a second
antenna, I think you are doing quite well as you are. I must
say, however, if I were in your shoes and able to receive all
those signals from one of the top tv/radio markets, I would
go for it......

[NATURE]

So a 7694P pointed at Chicago and either the 751 with amp or a different antenna pointed at Milwaukee. As of right now the 751 is dropping out on some of the Milwaukee channels which prompted this inquiry. I do have a combiner laying around somewhere.

[ADTech]

Antennas Direct Element or Clearstream 2MAX

The Element is quite directional, it has plenty of reflectors (it's an LPDA).

For true bi-directional reception, usually a vertical panel-style antenna is needed. For an out-of-the-box solution, either the C2MAX or C4MAX would be recommended with a bias for the quad loop design. You could also use a C2V or C4V, either without the reflector grids installed. The single VHF dipole would be somewhat of a concern for your VHF channels, one from each market.

Your most cost effective option would be a modified DB4e with the VHF1 retrofit kit. Modify the DB4e to remove the wire grids by drilling out the rivets that attach the grids to the rear spine. Attach the VHF1 to the mast using the supplied zip ties.

Note that the 7694 1) was never redesigned after the 2009 digital conversion so it's UHF section is tuned for reception up to channel 69 and 2) it has a much steeper F/B ration than does your 751R and would be less likely to pick up off the "back" side of the antenna.

[NATURE]

Thanks both of you for all your help. Since my markets are almost exactly 180 degrees offset this should be doable. I'm not looking for the most cost effective option and I'm aware that VHF will probably have to be compromised. So if I'm hearing you right ADTech, you would recommend the C4MAX. Now do I point it at Chicago since Milwaukee is closer, or point it at Milwaukee and just make do with what I get out of Chicago? Because of my market locations I was looking for a yagi without a reflector but it seems a vertical panel might be better.

[ADTech]

The C4MAX is almost perfectly BI-DIRECTIONAL, it doesn't matter which city you point it at, it will receive pretty much equally from both directions.

[JoeAZ]

Just a thought guys. With repack, many of the frequencies
will be used in Chicago as full power AND Milwaukee as
low power and vice versa. My experience tells me that most
tuners will have a difficult time, if not impossible, to receive
either/or frequency.

[ADTech]

Post-repack and based on current filings, I can see only two full power channels that would have the potential for co-channel interference along the WI-IL state line - channels 17 & 32. Each of those is a full power in one city and a 15 kW low power in the other. More likely than not, the 15 kW signal isn't going to be strong enough in Racine to interfere with the full power coming from the other direction. Similarly, when the low-power and translator filings occur, I wouldn't expect those signals, once built, to reach the state line with enough power to cause interference.

I'd rate this concern as "minimal" at the moment. FWIW, it looks like the FCC was able to successfully avoid using the same channel in both cities for full power stations.

Milwaukee is scheduled for phase 6 (Sep/Oct '19) and Chicago for phase 8 (Jan/Mar '20) of the repack process. I would expect co-channel interference on some stations during the overlap period.

[NATURE]

Thanks for all your help guys and to rabbit73 for your responses before my activation. I think I'm going to go with the C4MAX. Because of my low antenna height(16') I don't expect to reliably pick up much of Chicago anyway. Given the channels concerned, commingling shouldn't be an issue for me. My major problem is the dropping out of recorded shows on major Milwaukee networks. My expectations are that this antenna will be better than my 751 in my situation. NATURE.

[ADTech]

Hold off for a few hours on ordering anything. I'd like to pull up some comparison plots between the C4MAX and the 751R to see what might be expected. I'll be at the office a bit later this morning.

[NATURE]

Will do, thanks.

If you would like to see a google map of my location you can check out ticket#15529

[ADTech]

Took a bit longer to get to this, sorry for the delay.

Okay, looked at that ticket. Several comments.

I'm not generally a fan of using the DB8e with the panels facing directly opposite directions. You're better off with a DB4e with no reflectors (which do require a drill to modify). Unless you want the out-of the box convenience (at twice the price) that the DB8e offers, go the DB4e route for UHF.

Looking at my test data from back in May, you'd give up about 5.5 dB in gain on VHF on channel 8 (PBS in MIL) and about 2 dB on channel 12 (WBBM in CHI). Note: Measured gain of the 751R dropped markedly starting around channel 10 (197 MHz). On UHF, the the C4MAX has a 3-4 dB advantage up through the middle of the UHF band, then it's a dead heat.

I did look at your location and can offer you the following observations. If you're having difficulties with Milwaukee, there's something wrong, perhaps an unfortunate mounting spot was selected. Your reception from the north should be "easy" with almost any antenna. Do you have the antenna aimed into your neighbor's home or roof? As for Chicago, you'd need to situate the antenna in a particular spot on your roof so as to align the signal path to Chicago through the gap between those two apartment buildings across the street to your south. Unfortunately, there are some trees visible near that intersection so they're going to be a wild card.

I'll send you an image via our ticketing system of where and why I picked that spot.

[NATURE]

Thanks ADtech. The DB8e was too heavy anyway. I think the problem with my Milwaukee reception is the signal loss from the long run, the splitter and the 4 tuner DVR(probably not the greatest tuners). It's the reason I got the Kitztech, just haven't installed it yet pending antenna recommendations. So as of right now I'm looking at just keeping the 751 and adding the amp, the C4MAX and possibly adding the amp or the modified DB4e. The cost isn't a consideration and if Chicago is going to be a PIA, it isn't a consideration either. I'm thinking if I can get rock solid Milwaukee, anything off the back side is just gravy. Changing the location isn't really doable though I might be able to raise it a couple feet.


Using the map you e-mailed me the antenna is located at the lower left corner of the house(southwest)