Requesting Antenna Setup Recommendation - SE MI

[killjoy]

Hi Everyone -

My current cable provider has raised rates 3-4x in the last 2 years. While I am fortunate to have 2 other competitors who offer service, I'm leaning towards cutting the cord - going with an HD OTA antenna + Internet streaming. Here's my basic info & requirements for your consideration:

TV Signal Analysis Report: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...2c15c15674b44d
Existing Setup: Cable, no antennas currently. 1 60" plasma TV (the critical one for this discussion), and 1 32" 4:3 CRT.
Antenna Installation Location: Must be installed in the attic, single story brick veneer ranch w/ standard asphalt shingles. Probably 5' vertical height to work with.
Channels I Care About: Fox, CBS, NBC, ABC, PBS, CBC, CW, ION. I don't care about analog signals, nor CH 39, 33. Luckily, if I'm reading my signal report correctly, almost all of my local channels & the ones I care about are SW (~ 225*) or SSE (~ 157*)... and most are within 5 miles with the exception of CBC (Windsor, Ontario, Canada) which is 26 miles.
Other Thoughts: I can go without VHF Low, but will need VHF Hi + UHF. I don't want a motorized mast setup... just fixed & forget it.

I would like your input on the following:
- Will an attic mount antenna likely perform well given my situation?
- What antenna would you go with? I'm more than willing to spend a few extra $ if it means stronger signals and clearer/more reliable reception. I was considering the db8e for UHF. No idea for VHF Hi.
- How would you setup the antennas? e.g. pointing in what directions?
- Does the UHF antenna (e.g. db8e) come with a "combiner", UHF + VHF, so that I only need to run one coax run into the house? Or do I need to buy a combiner? Brand/model recommendations?
- I don't think I need an amp.?.?

Would take any other suggestions you may have.

--thanks

[timgr]

Will an attic antenna installation perform well in your situation? Probably. As long as you are interested in the stations at magnetic 200 or thereabouts.

You should be aware: effectiveness of an attic installation is difficult to predict. There are too many unknowns, in the material of the roof and structure, trees and buildings and other obstructions on the other side of the roof, and conductive and/or noisy wires, pipes, chimneys, etc. that are part of the building. Antennas are designed to function in free air, and you can change their electrical characteristics by placing them in other environments. Some building materials are more transparent to signals than others. Stucco, for example, contains wire mesh typically and is basically opaque to TV signals.

The obvious combination for VHF high with a DB8e is an Antennacraft Y5713 or Y10713. The main difference being the Y5713 has a 5' beam length and the Y10713 has a 10' beam (and is more sensitive to VHF high signals).

To combine these, you need a passive combiner, a UVSJ, or an active combiner, a preamp.

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=uvsj
http://www.amazon.com/RCA-TVPRAMP1R-.../dp/B003P92D9Y

There is always the question of signal amplitude vs. signal quality. Any preamp will degrade signal quality slightly (< 3 dB), but will give you plenty of amplitude. A UVSJ has a minimal signal degradation (0.5 dB claimed) but gives you no boost in signal amplitude.

[killjoy]

Thanks for the reply. I assume the prudent approach is to try the setup first with a UVSJ, and then if reception is less than ideal, fallback to the preamp?

And the db8e would an ideal UHF choice given my signal report and attic install? Just want to make sure I'm not overlooking better options.

[timgr]

The UVSJ will be cheaper and slightly quieter, if you don't need the amplitude boost.

Re the DB8e, there may be larger antennas that are more sensitive (ie 16 bay bowtie), but the DB8e is already 4' square. And they won't have the capability of aiming the panels in different directions. Alternately you could stack conventional yagi antennas, and get a 3dB boost for each double the number of antennas.

Really, I think the DB8e is the SOTA unless you go to a rather exotic or huge antenna. Its recent design means it's optimal for the UHF band, as UHF was narrowed by the FCC in 2009. Most UHF antennas on the market are optimal for 14-69, while the DB8e and DB4e are optimal for 14-51.

[killjoy]

Hi Guys - I just took delivery of a new Tivo Roamio OTA and I'm now getting ready to order my antennas & other equipment. I was looking a little closer at my signal analysis (post #1) and realized that I have 2 VHF Hi signals that I care about:

- WJBK, FOX, real channel 7, 4.2 miles, LOS, -20dBm, 232* magn
- CBET, CBC, real channel 9, 26.3 miles, LOS, -59dBm, 164* magn

I'm planning to go with a Y5713 + DB8e + UVSJ + ~20' RG6 to my first splitter and primary TV/Tivo for the house. I only have about 4' of vertical clearance in the attic to work with.

Per the specs published on the Y5713, it looks like the 1/2 power range is 55*. My 2 channels are 68* apart. Should I be looking for a less directional VHF Hi antenna that can cover the spread? Or do you think with WJBK being so close (4 miles, -20dBm), I'll pick it up w/o even trying? How would you aim to best cover these 2 station with that one yagi?

Last question -- It seems like no one carries the Pico UVSJ anymore. Solid Signal doesn't even promise the brand they'll ship. Are they still the best source for these things? It feels like I'm searching for something that no longer exists! Would prefer Amazon, but will order from the best source.

Thanks.

[Tim]

Originally Posted by killjoy

Last question -- It seems like no one carries the Pico UVSJ anymore. Solid Signal doesn't even promise the brand they'll ship. Are they still the best source for these things? It feels like I'm searching for something that no longer exists! Would prefer Amazon, but will order from the best source.

Thanks.

When I ordered the Pico UVSJ from Solid Signal, they shipped the Blonder-Tongue Z-UVSJ which is of the same construction quality and works perfectly.

[Tim]

Originally Posted by killjoy

Per the specs published on the Y5713, it looks like the 1/2 power range is 55*. My 2 channels are 68* apart. Should I be looking for a less directional VHF Hi antenna that can cover the spread? Or do you think with WJBK being so close (4 miles, -20dBm), I'll pick it up w/o even trying? How would you aim to best cover these 2 station with that one yagi?

Do you already have a Y5713? Since the demise of AntennaCraft they are becoming rather difficult to find. Maybe someone here can suggest an alternative.

My guess is that since you are line of sight and only 4 miles from channel 7 and they are running about 27 kW, you should have a very good chance of receiving it while your antenna is pointed at channel 9. I would start with the antenna aimed at channel 9 and see what kind of signals you get and then rotate in small increments towards channel 7 if you need to.

[killjoy]

Originally Posted by Tim

Do you already have a Y5713? Since the demise of AntennaCraft they are becoming rather difficult to find. Maybe someone here can suggest an alternative.

My guess is that since you are line of sight and only 4 miles from channel 7 and they are running about 27 kW, you should have a very good chance of receiving it while your antenna is pointed at channel 9. I would start with the antenna aimed at channel 9 and see what kind of signals you get and then rotate in small increments towards channel 7 if you need to.

I actually just realized that SolidSignal is located about 20 miles from my house. I can easily swing by to see what they have, pickup orders, etc.

No, I have not purchased any of the equipment, and yes, I now see that no one has the Y5713 in stock anymore. Sounds like Antennacraft is going down with the RadioShack ship. I would welcome any alternative recommendations.

[rabbit73]

No, I have not purchased any of the equipment, and yes, I now see that no one has the Y5713 in stock anymore.

Right. There are a few Y10-7-13 left, but their beamwidth is even more narrow. The supply of VHF-High antennas by all manufacturers is drying up.

Does ANYBODY make a dedicated VHF-Hi antenna?
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hdt...i-antenna.html

It is possible to use a UHF/VHF-High combo antenna for VHF. When you connect it to the UVSJ VHF port, it will pass VHF and block any UHF that doesn't exceed the specs.
http://www.hollandelectronics.com/ca...-Diplexers.pdf

The Winegard HD7694P might work. It has more gain on VHF-High than a dipole antenna and other small VHF-High antennas which you will need because CBET is a lot weaker than your other channels.

If you check the specs for the CH 7 and 9 beamwidth of the 7694, you will see different answers, from different sellers. Even Winegard gives different answers. I tend to trust the polar patterns done by the antenna engineers.
http://www.skywalker.com/catalog/Manuals/WIN1051.pdf

Your signals are extremely strong, possibly in tuner overload range, if you add the antenna gain to the 77.9 dB Noise Margin and the -12.9 dBm Pwr of WDIV, but as timgr said the signal attenuation caused by the attic, trees, and buildings is unknown. If you do have an overload problem, you might need an attenuator after the antenna.



Interpreting Noise Margin in the TV Fool Report
http://www.aa6g.org/DTV/Reception/tvfool_nm.html

Your signals are so strong that if you are into experimenting you might consider using the 7694 for VHF and a lower gain antenna for UHF like the Antennas Direct C2 (70 degrees) or the UHF section of the RCA ANT751 (I can't find beamwidth specs}.

You also have some very strong FM signals and will probably need an FM trap/filter or 2 in series to protect 7 and 9 from interference. A HLSJ can also be used as an FM filter.

I see a lot of trees in your estimated area. I hope you can get your antenna/antennas in a location that has a clear path above or through them. Trees really mess with UHF signals.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/siting.html
scroll down to Trees and UHF

Please let us know how your tests come out in this same thread.

[killjoy]

Thanks for the info Rabbit73. I've been going through it all weekend! I've changed course in the last 2 days. I think the DB8e will be too directional for my suburban location, and even using both panels ~30* off broadside, I think the C2 will do a better job covering. It also fits physically in my attic much easier.

How does this plan sound?

UHF: AD Clearstream 2
- 70* beam width seems to fit my needs well.
- Still 10 dBi
- Plan to aim it about 200* magnetic. Most UHF I care about is 200* - 268*, but I'd also like to pickup ch 32 (far, 164* - yellow) - so favoring that direction when final tuning the antenna aim point as needed.


VHF Hi: Fracarro Radioindustrie 6E512F
- 28* beam width
- 10 dBi
- Plan to aim around 180-190* magnetic to pickup ch 9 (164*), and hoping that ch 7 at 232* will be picked up given signal strength and proximity.
I would even consider buying a 4E512F which has 35* BW and 6dBi if I could find one.

- Combine both with a UVSJ.
- No amplification.
- Keep both antennas ~4'(?) apart in the attic. Likely 2 separate masts since I only have ~4' of vertical clearance in the attic.
- 20' run of quality RG6 from UVSJ to my home theater equip closet. 2 way splitter into the Tivo (primary TV), and then continuing on to feed the other TVs.

Questions
1) Does this sound like a decent plan?
2) Any product/source recommendations for the FM trap? Would it best to use a HLSJ from SolidSignal, or is there a better solution?
3) Any recommendation for model/brand on the splitter? Or just lowest loss, 1GHz splitter from anyone?
4) Is all RG6 about the same? Is it worth picking up Belden 1694a or some other premium cable? Guessing I'll probably use (2) 2' cables between each antenna and the UVSJ to keep it symmetric, and then the longer home run to the first splitter in the HT closet.

[rabbit73]

UHF: AD Clearstream 2
- 70* beam width seems to fit my needs well.
- Still 10 dBi

That's good.

- Plan to aim it about 200* magnetic. Most UHF I care about is 200* - 268*, but I'd also like to pickup ch 32 (far, 164* - yellow) - so favoring that direction when final tuning the antenna aim point as needed.

UHOH, not good. You just added another UHF. Even the C2 might not have a beamwidth wide enough. You can try it.

VHF Hi: Fracarro Radioindustrie 6E512F
- 28* beam width
- 10 dBi
- Plan to aim around 180-190* magnetic to pickup ch 9 (164*), and hoping that ch 7 at 232* will be picked up given signal strength and proximity.
I would even consider buying a 4E512F which has 35* BW and 6dBi if I could find one.

Same problem; not enough beamwidth. That's why I picked the 7694 with more beamwidth (60 degrees), but you are welcome to try.

Any product/source recommendations for the FM trap? Would it best to use a HLSJ from SolidSignal, or is there a better solution?

Since it is uncertain how serious the FM interference would be, some testing is required. Your initial testing of antennas, traps, and splitters should be a simple setup with one TV, changing only one component at a time.
https://www.antennasdirect.com/store...on_filter.html
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/produc...-FM-88-/33-341
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=zhlsj
http://www.atvresearch.com/hlsjvhfba...-combiner.aspx

3) Any recommendation for model/brand on the splitter? Or just lowest loss, 1GHz splitter from anyone?

All the ones that I have used seem to be about equal, which is more than I can say about 4:1 balun matching transformers.

4) Is all RG6 about the same? Is it worth picking up Belden 1694a or some other premium cable?

I have never found it necessary to buy premium RG6 coaxial cable.

Guessing I'll probably use (2) 2' cables between each antenna and the UVSJ to keep it symmetric,

No need to keep them the same length. That is only necessary when you are combining two identical UHF or VHF antennas, aimed in the same direction, with a splitter in reverse as a combiner.

If your testing doesn't go well, keep in mind the very real possibility of tuner overload.

[killjoy]

How about a ClearStream 5 for VHF-hi duty? AD claims a 70* beam width. Kinda pricey, but if it works, it works.

Solo? Or maybe teamed with the CS2 for UHF? Or DB8e?

[rabbit73]

How about a ClearStream 5 for VHF-hi duty? AD claims a 70* beam width. Kinda pricey, but if it works, it works.
Solo? Or maybe teamed with the CS2 for UHF? Or DB8e?

The CS5 is well made, doesn't have quite as much gain as the 7694, and comes with a UHF/VHF combiner, BUT

Umm, you are getting a little ahead of yourself. You are at the point where you need to put something in your attic, to see how well it works, and go from there.

In order to evaluate the result of changes, you need to be able to measure signal strength and signal quality (SNR and errors).

What make and model is your 60 inch plasma TV? Does it have a signal strength indicator?

I just took delivery of a new Tivo Roamio OTA

The Roamio should have a Diagnostics Screen that looks like this:



I think it's here, IIRC:
From TiVo Central > Settings & Messages > Account & System Info > DVR Diagnostics

ADTech and I spent a lot of time (8 pages!) helping mulliganman with his Tivo Roamio. I thought his problem was multipath. Then I thought it was signals too strong. Then I thought it was multipath again because his C2V was in a poor location, which was correct. His TV and his CM DVR did a little better than his Roamio with the poor antenna location. I had him make some tests using the Diagnostics Screen to check signal strength, SNR, and Errors. He finally moved his antenna to a better location.
question regarding overamplification thread
http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=15025

relevant posts with diagnostics screen readouts
http://forum.tvfool.com/showpost.php...8&postcount=15
http://forum.tvfool.com/showpost.php...6&postcount=21

Image of Diagnostics Screen
http://forum.tvfool.com/showpost.php...0&postcount=49

Then I had him insert attenuators of different values to see what would happen to the signal strength, SNR, and Errors to see how much signal strength was required for good reception, and to find out how much signal margin to dropout was available to deal with changes in OTA signals
http://forum.tvfool.com/showpost.php...4&postcount=77 6 dB
http://forum.tvfool.com/showpost.php...8&postcount=80 9 dB
http://forum.tvfool.com/showpost.php...&postcount=100 20 dB
http://forum.tvfool.com/showpost.php...&postcount=101 30 dB
http://forum.tvfool.com/showpost.php...&postcount=102 40 dB
http://forum.tvfool.com/showpost.php...&postcount=103 50 dB


Diary Of A Cord Cutter In 2015 (Part 5: Upgrading To The TiVo Roamio OTA DVR)
http://techcrunch.com/2015/03/20/dia...oamio-ota-dvr/

[killjoy]

Originally Posted by rabbit73

What make and model is your 60 inch plasma TV? Does it have a signal strength indicator?

Panasonic Viera TC-P60VT60. It was the last generation before Panasonic exited the plasma business. I'd have a hard time getting coax to the TV directly since it's wall mounted with only HDMI between the DVR (soon to be the Tivo) and the TV run within the wall. But doable, if needed.

Originally Posted by rabbit73

The Roamio should have a Diagnostics Screen that looks like this:

I honestly haven't taken it out of the box yet since I have no antennas to run it with. But I can fire it up soon to confirm.

Originally Posted by rabbit73

I spent a lot of time (8 pages!) helping mulliganman with his Tivo Roamio. I thought his problem was multipath. Then I thought it was signals too strong. Then I thought it was multipath again because his C2V was in a poor location, which was correct. His TV and his CM DVR did a little better than his Roamio with the poor antenna location. I had him make some tests using the Diagnostics Screen to check signal strength, SNR, and Errors. He finally moved his antenna to a better location.

Sounds like fun! Hopefully mine goes easier, but knowing my luck - not.
The house is a brick veneer ranch with asphalt shingles. The gable roof flats face N & S, and since I'm going to be aiming mostly S & SW it should be "ok", but I also want to avoid the western brick gable wall (bricks will block more signal than plywood and shingles, right?). I'm also planning to "temp" the masts in place until I'm done tweaking and happy with signal, JIC I need to shift them around a bit.

Originally Posted by rabbit73

Umm, you are getting a little ahead of yourself. You are at the point where you need to put something in your attic, to see how well it works, and go from there.

Agreed. I'd like to get this hardware ordered today in hopes of using the long Memorial Day weekend to get some of this setup work done. What's your best recommendation for antennas given our discussion to "get something up there"?

I like the CS2 given the wide beam width, decent gain, and relatively economical price. I'm just wondering -- if the CS2 is not going to be wide enough to cover 164* - 268*.... even given that the channels between 201* - 268* are all within 4-8 miles and have signal dB > 50.

The DB8e would afford me the flexibility to point one panel at ~164*, and the other at 220*ish. Concern on the "ish" is beam width to cover ~200*-268*. I think one panel may be too directional to cover this 200*-268* span. And when I look at the published horizontal coverage spec for the DB8e with the panels slightly tipped out (say 15* or 30*), it seems (on paper) to cover less range at a given gain than the CS2 alone.

On the VHF side, I'm favoring the CS5 unless you think the 7694 would work better. I know the CS5 is about 2x the price, but I also value my time being spent in a hot attic in the summertime! The 7694 also isn't small - 65" x 35".... I've got that much room, but the antenna is going to have to be mounted fairly low in order for me to get the clearance, esp if you want some clearance between the antennae and the roof sheathing. I've only got about 4' of vertical clearance in the attic, it's a 4/12 roof, so I'd have to come down a min of 2' from the peak in order to get 5'+ of open space.

[rabbit73]

I'm also planning to "temp" the masts in place until I'm done tweaking and happy with signal, JIC I need to shift them around a bit

good idea

What's your best recommendation for antennas given our discussion to "get something up there"?

If you want to start with one antenna up there in descending order:

C2, will give you local UHF but maybe not 7
C2V, will give you local UHF and 7
RCA ANT751, will give you local UHF and 7
7694, will give you local UHF and 7; maybe 9 if aimed that way (if you are only going to use it for VHF it might be possible to remove corner reflector and UHF directors to make it smaller in attic, which would turn it into a VHF only antenna)
C5, will only give you VHF, so you don't want to start with it
DB8E, will only give you UHF, so you don't want to start with it; as you said narrow beamwidth. Aiming panels in different directions doesn't always work.

On the VHF side, I'm favoring the CS5.....I also value my time being spent in a hot attic.....antenna is going to have to be mounted fairly low in order for me to get the clearance

understood

It's your project; you must make the final decision.

[killjoy]

Decisions, decisions.

I took another look at the horizontal gain of the C2 vs. DB8e with the panels at 90* to one another. Coincidentally, that orientation is about what I'm looking at -- panel 1 aimed at 164* (that ch 32 heavy line of channels), panel 2 aimed at ~250*. Looks like it would maintain at least 5dBi in between the 2 aimpoints, 10 dBi at the 2 aimpoints. (see attached pic)

I was actually thinking of starting with 2 antennas, but I could start with 1 as well. Was thinking C2 + C5, then 5 minutes later thinking DB8e + C5, then just a C2V.

Will give it a couple hours to "sink in" and likely will order later tonight.

[rabbit73]

Keep in mind the KISS principle:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle

The KISS principle states that most systems work best if they are kept simple rather than made complicated; therefore simplicity should be a key goal in design and unnecessary complexity should be avoided.

The acronym was reportedly coined by Kelly Johnson, lead engineer at the Lockheed Skunk Works (creators of the Lockheed U-2 and SR-71 Blackbird spy planes, among many others).[3]

While popular usage has translated it for decades as "Keep it simple, stupid", Johnson translated it as "Keep it simple stupid" (no comma), and this reading is still used by many authors.[7] There was no implicit meaning that an engineer was stupid; just the opposite.[3]

The principle is best exemplified by the story of Johnson handing a team of design engineers a handful of tools, with the challenge that the jet aircraft they were designing must be repairable by an average mechanic in the field under combat conditions with only these tools. Hence, the "stupid" refers to the relationship between the way things break and the sophistication available to repair them.

[ADTech]

C5, will only give you VHF, so you don't want to start with it

Actually, I would specifically recommend he start with the C5 by itself.

On VHF 7-13, the antenna is extremely well behaved with that 70° forward beamwidth. On UHF, it tends to behave more like a quasi-omni antenna.

When we first came out with the C5 back in the summer of '09, we were positioning it as a VHF supplement to our comprehensive line of UHF antennas. It didn't take long for us to notice that customers were keeping it and sending back the UHF antenna because they discovered the C5 covered their needs by itself.

We went back to our design engineer and had him run the modelling on the C5 for UHF frequencies. We we all saw the results, we changed its marketing to reflect that it can be a long-range high VHF antenna as well as a short-medium range UHF antenna for relatively uncomplicated UHF situations. At our office in St Louis, we get all of our local signals from a roof-mounted C5. It's been up there for about 4 years.

The complete technical data sheet for the C5 is on our website. Go to the C5's product page, then click on the "Documents" tab.

[rabbit73]

Actually, I would specifically recommend he start with the C5 by itself.

Thanks for the UHF background info on the C5.

Does that mean he should use it without the included diplexer to allow VHF and UHF signals to pass?

[ADTech]

That's correct. The diplexer is used only when using separate U/V antennas.