Which Antenna with hills in the way

[oncor23]

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9e74d534b343fa

There's my site location. I want to hit that cluster of TV stations on several towers clustered 36.9 miles away. My house sits at 1900 ft. The towers are on a hill at maybe 2000 ft. In between...direct line of sight are 2 or maybe 3 high spots at 2050 and 2150...so no direct line of sight between my antenna and the broadcast towers. Anyway, I'll be satisfied with reception from just that cluster, so don't need a roter. On my old antenna, the best channel is 6 (CBS)...often the only channel I get. I would like to get Fox and NBC (high VHF)...along with ABC and PBS which are UHF. So....what's my best bet for a new antenna(s) given my circumstances. Oh...and I now have a metal roof...forget inside...used to do that with analog and asphalt shingles, but not with digital except for 6 and forget it with my new metal roof.

Thanks for any help.

[GroundUrMast]

Given WRGB on real channel 6 and the very weak WNYA on real channel 13, I'd suggest a Winegard HD8200u and an Antennas Direct CPA-18 preamplifier.

This is a large antenna and it will need to be up in the clear. A heavy duty tripod and mast are worth the extra few dollars.

[Tigerbangs]

You are going to need to pull out the big guns to make this work. WRGB will always look strongest because low-band VHF follows the contours of the earth better than high-band VHF or UHF, but, practically speaking, low-band VHF has other issues that keep it from being a good medium for digital broadcasting.

All of the Capital District stations transmit from a common tower in the Helderberg Mountains southwest of Albany, and the terrain between the transmitters and you is a bit of a nightmare for TV reception, although the distance isn't very great. Expect that you are going to need the biggest all-channel antenna that you can get.

There are 3 antennas that will fill the bill for you: the Winegard HD-8200u, the Channel Master Crossfire 3671, or the AnrennaCraft HD1850. All of these antennas are 16'+ monsters and will require careful installation on your roof. Because of the potential for ignition and other atmospheric interference with VHF channel 6, I strongly suggest that you use the very best RG-6 quad shield cable and compression-type "F" fittings that you can find, and also consider using a very low-noise preamplifier like a Channel Master Titan 7777 or a Winegard AP-8275.

Aim the antenna at at 88 degrees as measured by your compass, but remember that these antennas are VERY directional, and a mis-aiming of as little as 10 degrees may make the difference between seeing a station or not seeing it at all. if you doubt your ability to aim a rig this large properly, then consider using a rotator to fine-tune it.

When you are all done, you should see all of the Capital District stations reliably. I have listed links to the various recommended antennas: good luck!

http://www.channelmaster.com/HD_tele...tenna_s/24.htm

http://www.winegard.com/kbase/upload/HD8200U.pdf

http://antennacraft.com/pdfs/HD1850.pdf

http://www.channelmaster.com/Televis..._7777_s/92.htm

http://www.winegard.com/offair/amplifiers.php

[oncor23]

Thanks Tiger and GroundUM. I figured I would need a monster antenna...I wasn't sure whether it might be better to go with separate antenna's for VHF and UHF. It will certainly be easier dealing with one antenna.

If I don't want to penetrate my metal roof (and I don't), and besides, the best place on my ranch style house is the far west end because of trees off the east end, what's the best way to attach a big antenna to the side end of the house? Mount a pole all the way to the ground and attach to the side of the house...as opposed to some free standing attachment to the side of the house?

[GroundUrMast]

There are substantial eave brackets available and telescoping mast options...

These folks have a lot of options to choose from: http://www.3starinc.com/

You know your house best...

[oncor23]

Got the winegard Hd8200U antenna with the winegard AP8275 Amp. Not mounted all that high...about 13 ft above the ground. I'm getting channels 6, 13 and 23 out of Albany. These correspond to digital UHF 6, 12 and 7...and that's it. All VHF, but no UHF channels are coming in. I was hoping for 26 (old channel 10), 34 and 43, but no go. I'm wondering if getting the antenna higher would help. I may wait until next summer to experment...get the antenna off the ground mast and put it on top of my chimmney and see if I can get any UHF channels...before going through the trouble of trying to install the antenna at increased elevation.

My old set-up...smaller antenna at 8 ft off the ground picked up 6 at 98% of the time, and 23 (7 UHF) maybe 25% of the time...and 13 maybe 2% of the time. So...at least I'm ahead somewhat with 23 coming in close to 100% and 13 coming in almost that good.

[GroundUrMast]

You'll certainly want to experiment with both mounting location and height. As Tigerbangs mentioned, the terrain between the transmitters and your location diffracts and reflects the signals. Hunt around, you may find a 'hot spot'.

Just to clarify, real channels 2 through 6 are known as Low-VHF, real channels 7 through 13 are known as High-VHF and only real channels 14 through 51 are UHF.

[oncor23]

Maybe sometime next spring...when the weather is warmer and I could actually put in a new foundation for a mast...I will go on a hunt for the "sweet spot" around my house. I have long extension cords and a small TV. I could wander around the yard and see if anything works better. As I am on a hillside, going uphill would probably work to some advantage, but only testing will tell the whole story.

I could also set up something attached to the side of my house...that would be the easiest way to gain height, but before I do that...I need to test. I'm guessing that I can't gain enough height by itself to get all the signals I would like. I need to find a sweet spot...if one exists nearby.

This brings to mind a question: How long a cable run can I accept? IOW, how far from the house should I do testing? I'm on a hill with a 10% grade. I could go 1,000 ft to the edge of my property and gain 100 ft in elevation. Yeah...a lot of testing to do that, but there must be a limit to the cable length I can run. Does anyone know what that limit is?

Thanks for your help!

[GroundUrMast]

All of your property is within the range of coax if the system is properly designed.

RG6 has up to 6 dB of signal loss per 100' of coax (at the top end of the UHF band). RG11 has about 3.6 dB loss through the same distance.

Finding an amplifier that can drive 200 to 300 feet of RG6 is easy but, both types of coax have far less loss at lower frequencies so equalization may be needed. Your strongest signals are VHF so this issue of equalization will need to be considered if you need to use more than one mid-span amplifier. (You need to avoid the VHF signals becoming much stronger than the UHF signals as they pass through the coax.)

Powering the amplifiers may require running power cable along with the coax if there is no power at the mid-point or remote antenna location. The power could be 120 VAC or DC at a voltage level appropriate for the amplifier(s) used. AC power may cause noise issues, I would look at the cost and complexity of distributing DC.

All of this is theory at this point... you need to find a reliable signal first. Once you know how long the cable run will be, we can deal with the situation.

[oncor23]

Let me ask this: How far can I run a cable without having to add additional power beyond the 8275 I have now? I will concentrate my efforts attempting to find a sweet spot somewhere nearby. If I have no luck, then I will start to range farther up hill.

My point about using a long extension cord and a small TV is that it will make it relatively easy to see what the signal is doing. Once I start getting beyond the range of any extension cords, it makes the whole process more complicated. Trying to move cable around to see how good the signal is at the one location and then move it all around while attempting to maneuver the antenna...well, it's not like it's a nice flat lawn once I get more than 100 ft from the house.

[GroundUrMast]

Real channel 43 is a good example. The top end of the channel is 650 MHz. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Televis...he_Philippines. At this frequency, RG6 has 5.2 dB loss per 100 feet.

The AP8275 is rated at 28 dB gain in the UHF band. So the math is 28dB / (5.2 dB / 100') = 538'. The question would then be, "Will the power supply be able to power the preamp through the resistance of 500' of RG6?" To answer that, Winegard says that the AP8275 draws up to 100 mA. http://www.winegard.com/kbase/kb_tip...hp?tip_num=389 Use a good quality RG6 cable with quad shield and solid copper center conductor (Belden 7916A for example, available through many sources including http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...16A-0101000%29) and you can expect the total resistance of 500' to be about 5.6Ω which means that there will be less than 0.6 volts of voltage drop... so the AP8275 should do fine.

[oncor23]

Thanks!!! Great answer. So, I have up to 500 ft to play with. The best search technique might involve running a small TV on a battery and dragging it around behind me while I search for the "sweet spot" with the antenna. Keep the antenna on a mast to give it some elevation...have someone else tail me with the tv running on the battery and a short cable directly to the antenna. I keep the compass handy so I can point the antenna in the right direction as we do a grid search for the best location.

[GroundUrMast]

Yes... now for some decent weather.