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-   -   Pre-amp-Passive Splitter/Amplified splitter (http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=15887)

shoman94 10-Jan-2016 7:07 AM
Pre-amp-Passive Splitter/Amplified splitter
 
So I was finally able to get FOX after going thru 3 antennas.
Here is my report: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...51347570c1f198

I'm using the Clearstream 4v from BestBuy. I have 3 TVs I need to connect. With a single line and a single tv I have very good signal on all channels except FOX and WPME is about 50% but its nice and clear.
If I add a Pre amp (PA-18) all channels get pixels and are unwatchable....signal strength is the same.
So I removed the preamp..... tried to split and I lose signal across the board. I added a power splitter (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/rocketfi...&skuId=9449135) and with 2 TV's the signal is still good and channels are good. When I add the third tv and see FOX and WPME start to degrade and I get some skips and pixel loss fairly consistent.


Do I need a stronger splitter amp? Would this be better(http://www.lowes.com/pd_79376-63374-...al+amplifier)? 10db gain vs 4db gain on the Rocketfish.
Will the preamp work if I also install the passive splitter?

Thanks in advance.
Jason

ADTech 10-Jan-2016 1:15 PM
The PA18 is probably overloading from nearby FM stations. Other than that, it appears to be an appropriate amp for your situation. You need an FM filter or two, not a stronger amp.

Call any remaining Radio Shack stores in your area and ask them if they have any FM filters still on hand, catalog number 1500321 (15-0321). You have to call, the item is not on their website. The filter must be installed between the antenna and the amp and you'll need a short jumper cable to do that.

If you strike out with RS and don't mind a bit of a wait, fill out the contact form on our website (https://www.antennasdirect.com/custo...p-service.html) with your information and I'll get a filter and cable mailed out to you for free.

FYI, I tested that amp from Best Buy a while back. Its noise figure is so bad (> 7 dB) that there is no reason for the product to even exist, certainly not for antenna signals. It's really not a 4 dB amp, it's a 12 dB amp with an integral 4 port splitter (~8 dB insertion loss). I haven't tested the RCA amp shown, but it's probably a 15-18 dB gain amp with the same type of splitter and corresponding insertion loss.

Quote:
Will the preamp work if I also install the passive splitter?
Yes, as long as you don't make the common mistake of installing a non-power passing splitter between the preamp and its power inserter. If your cabling layout requires the splitter to be installed in that cabling segment, a power-pass splitter must be used.

shoman94 10-Jan-2016 2:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADTech (Post 54158)
The PA18 is probably overloading from nearby FM stations. Other than that, it appears to be an appropriate amp for your situation. You need an FM filter or two, not a stronger amp.

Call any remaining Radio Shack stores in your area and ask them if they have any FM filters still on hand, catalog number 1500321 (15-0321). You have to call, the item is not on their website. The filter must be installed between the antenna and the amp and you'll need a short jumper cable to do that.

If you strike out with RS and don't mind a bit of a wait, fill out the contact form on our website (https://www.antennasdirect.com/custo...p-service.html) with your information and I'll get a filter and cable mailed out to you for free.

FYI, I tested that amp from Best Buy a while back. Its noise figure is so bad (> 7 dB) that there is no reason for the product to even exist, certainly not for antenna signals. It's really not a 4 dB amp, it's a 12 dB amp with an integral 4 port splitter (~8 dB insertion loss). I haven't tested the RCA amp shown, but it's probably a 15-18 dB gain amp with the same type of splitter and corresponding insertion loss.



Yes, as long as you don't make the common mistake of installing a non-power passing splitter between the preamp and its power inserter. If your cabling layout requires the splitter to be installed in that cabling segment, a power-pass splitter must be used.
I'll be calling at 11am when they open.....
Is this basically the same filter? http://www.amazon.com/RadioShack-Rad...ywords=fm+trap
It's a different number than you mentioned.

From my antenna to the splitter in the house is about 35 feet then each run is 35 feet or less from there.

So in your opinion I'm better off to use an FM trap,the PA-18 and a passive 4 way splitter vs no FM trap,no preamp and a better splitter amplifier?

EDIT: I called RS and the 1500321 is an amplifier... So I'm assuming that you meant to use the part number I linked above. P/N-1500024.

My local RS has a few in stock at 1.97 on clearance! I'll buy a few in case something happens to it...lol

ADTech 10-Jan-2016 4:31 PM
Yes, I mis-quoted that part number from memory, you got the right one. Good catch.

Quote:
So in your opinion I'm better off to use an FM trap,the PA-18 and a passive 4 way splitter vs no FM trap,no preamp and a better splitter amplifier?
Yep. You already have almost all the parts, just need the filter/trap(s).

shoman94 10-Jan-2016 4:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADTech (Post 54162)
Yes, I mis-quoted that part number from memory, you got the right one. Good catch.



Yep. You already have almost all the parts, just need the filter/trap(s).

Why do you mention traps in multiple?

ADTech 10-Jan-2016 5:44 PM
In case you need two in series.

shoman94 10-Jan-2016 6:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADTech (Post 54164)
In case you need two in series.
Heh..... How would I know that?

ADTech 10-Jan-2016 7:33 PM
Try one filter first. If the original problem is still there, try adding a second.

shoman94 10-Jan-2016 8:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADTech (Post 54168)
Try one filter first. If the original problem is still there, try adding a second.
OK thanks... I bought 3...lol

Can i test this with 30 feet of coax to the antenna?

EDIT: So installing 1 fixed most except 2 channels... 6.x and 51.x

Then I installed 2.... 51.x is good but still fluctuates some signal wise... Channel 6.x is about the same... Maybe a touch better...

Then I installed 3.... 6.x still cuts out and pixelate, no real change. 51.x still fluctuates but no drop outs.

Any advice?

ADTech 10-Jan-2016 9:13 PM
Put the filter between the antenna and the amp, keeping all cabling before the amp to a minimum for best results.

shoman94 10-Jan-2016 9:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADTech (Post 54171)
Put the filter between the antenna and the amp, keeping all cabling before the amp to a minimum for best results.
So installing 1 fixed most except 2 channels... 6.x and 51.x

Then I installed 2.... 51.x is good but still fluctuates some signal wise... Channel 6.x is about the same... Maybe a touch better...

Then I installed 3.... 6.x still cuts out and pixelate, no real change. 51.x still fluctuates but no drop outs.

Any advice?

EDIT: Looks like WMEA radio station freq 90.1 is in the same exact direction as WCSH 6.1. Is that the culprit?

shoman94 11-Jan-2016 2:37 AM
I'm also wondering now if I should be using the Antennas direct FM filter based on this chart...

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...9&d=1436108763

shoman94 11-Jan-2016 3:48 AM
1 Attachment(s)
Ok now that I have spent a little time watching the channels with the family in bed.

My current setup: CS4V antenna aimed at 28DEG (TRUE) and 20' up and 5 feet above the peak of my metal roof.
2 RS FM traps, PA-18, PA-18 power inserter, 3 way splitter (5-1000mhz)

TVFOOL:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...513421e7b3a772

FMFOOL:
http://www.fmfool.com/index.php?opti...pper&Itemid=29

These issues only start after adding the PA-18 but is it tolerable (sort of) with the 2 FM traps. If I don't use the Pre-amp I cant split the signal to more than 2 tv's without issue and having the PA-18 also increases my weakest signal (23.1) by 5% to 10%.

This is all new to me. I just cut Directv! YAY! lol

6.1(Real-44)- Audio drops/skips randomly... not as bad as the others.
8.1(Real-8)- No issues
13.1(Real-38)- No issues
23.1(Real-23)- Audio drops/skips randomly every 5 to 15ish seconds (Sometimes video is effected but not pixel drops)
26.1(Real-45)- No issues
35.1(Real-35)- Audio drops/skips randomly every 5 to 15ish seconds (Sometimes video is effected but not pixel drops)

This evening,channel 51.1) has the most audio drops/skips.
51.1(Real-43)- Audio drops/skips randomly every 5 to 15ish seconds (Sometimes video is effected but not pixel drops)

ADTech 11-Jan-2016 11:32 AM
Try testing (same TV set) with a straight-through coupler instead of the three port splitter. Repeat testing with at least one of the other available TV sets and see what happens.

shoman94 11-Jan-2016 11:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADTech (Post 54178)
Try testing (same TV set) with a straight-through coupler instead of the three port splitter. Repeat testing with at least one of the other available TV sets and see what happens.
I'm 99% sure I did that before installing the splitter but I'll do it again when I get home from work.

Weird though that the channels in question are all on UHF and close to the same channel (23,35,43,44)

shoman94 11-Jan-2016 10:37 PM
Looks like both Panasonic TV's are better. No noticeable dropouts but the problem channels listed above have large signal fluctuation problems. Some as much as 20%.

On my XBox One I'm still having the same problems but just slightly better. WCSH isn't cutting out anymore but the rest are about the same. This tuner was connected to the 3.5db drop of the splitter originally. Unfortunately I cannot see signal strength on the XBox.


EDIT: I installed a different splitter and the Panasonic's seem to be doing OK and I also switched to a different COAX going to my XBox since I already had 2 lines running there. Nothing has changed with the XBox.... with or without the splitter. So it looks like maybe the splitter was doing something but it did not stop the slight dropouts on the XBox. Is the PA-18 too strong?

shoman94 12-Jan-2016 11:52 AM
I'm assuming by the amount of responses here I'm shit out of luck?

ADTech 12-Jan-2016 12:00 PM
Quote:
I'm assuming by the amount of responses here I'm shit out of luck?
You should assume that more patience is required. A forum is not a medium for immediate responses.

You mentioned earlier that the antenna is above a metal roof.

As currently installed, is the antenna situated so that the incoming signals must cross the roof to arrive at the antenna or is the antenna mounted so that the signals hit it before crossing the roof?

shoman94 12-Jan-2016 12:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADTech (Post 54207)
You should assume that more patience is required. A forum is not a medium for immediate responses.

You mentioned earlier that the antenna is above a metal roof.

As currently installed, is the antenna situated so that the incoming signals must cross the roof to arrive at the antenna or is the antenna mounted so that the signals hit it before crossing the roof?
Yes it goes across the metal roof. If you look at the attached image above you see where the antenna is placed. It is 5 feet above the peak of the roof attached by a gable end mount.

Just to reiterate though... I don't get these signal fluctuations without the PA-18.

EDIT: I don't expect immediate responses but I also don't see anyone else chiming in. My statement was based on limited responses that I have normally seen in other threads buy some very knowledgeable people as yourself. My post was in no way to insult anyone.

Another question, Can there signal fluctuations be the Pre-amp clipping?

rickbb 12-Jan-2016 3:38 PM
With a metal roof between the antenna and the transmitting tower you could be getting reflections of the signal from the roof. This can cause issues.

You may want to try a taller mast or move the antenna to the other side of the house to eliminate that reflection.

Of course none of that may work, but it needs to be eliminated and trial and error location testing is the only way to do it.

ADTech 12-Jan-2016 3:51 PM
Quote:
I don't get these signal fluctuations without the PA-18......Can there signal fluctuations be the Pre-amp clipping?
Yes, it could be. I wanted to eliminate the very pronounced risk of FM overload first. Some of the stronger UHF signals are near the limit of vulnerability to PA18 overload. I made a very simple rule for our in-house sales and support staff: If the TVFool estimate shows stations "in the green", don't sell or recommend the PA18, it's really for rural locations only where everything is weak.

Shoot me your mailing info, either by PM or via email to info (at) antennasdirect.com and I'll send out a Juice. I KNOW it won't get overloaded whereas the PA18 might be, perhaps by something as yet unidentified.

rickbb already made the specific point that I was angling toward. His advice is spot on, but yI'd recommend that you try the Juice first before committing to a relocation of the antenna. BTW, I can't see any photo of the install, perhaps it got lost.

shoman94 12-Jan-2016 4:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADTech (Post 54212)
Yes, it could be. I wanted to eliminate the very pronounced risk of FM overload first. Some of the stronger UHF signals are near the limit of vulnerability to PA18 overload. I made a very simple rule for our in-house sales and support staff: If the TVFool estimate shows stations "in the green", don't sell or recommend the PA18, it's really for rural locations only where everything is weak.

Shoot me your mailing info, either by PM or via email to info (at) antennasdirect.com and I'll send out a Juice. I KNOW it won't get overloaded whereas the PA18 might be, perhaps by something as yet unidentified.

rickbb already made the specific point that I was angling toward. His advice is spot on, but yI'd recommend that you try the Juice first before committing to a relocation of the antenna. BTW, I can't see any photo of the install, perhaps it got lost.
Post 13 has an attachment that shows the satellite view of my home and I placed the marker right where my antenna is mounted.

So if it were in fact reflecting off the roof that way, wouldn't that fluctuation show up even without the amplifier?

I will PM you my info. Thanks!

shoman94 12-Jan-2016 4:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickbb (Post 54211)
With a metal roof between the antenna and the transmitting tower you could be getting reflections of the signal from the roof. This can cause issues.

You may want to try a taller mast or move the antenna to the other side of the house to eliminate that reflection.

Of course none of that may work, but it needs to be eliminated and trial and error location testing is the only way to do it.
Thanks, I have read that the antenna should be installed 10 feet above the metal roof. Adding another 5 feet length is probably an easier change but my only concern there would be stability. Maybe I'd have to go to a larger mast.

I'm not seeing the fluctuation without the amp so I wasn't considering the roof being an issue. But I could be wrong.

ADTech 12-Jan-2016 5:55 PM
Some times I conclude that this stuff is some combination of black magic, voodoo, and blind luck, either good or bad... Some times I'm surprised it even works at all...

You should have the amp in a few days, let me know how it turns out.

shoman94 12-Jan-2016 6:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADTech (Post 54216)
Some times I conclude that this stuff is some combination of black magic, voodoo, and blind luck, either good or bad... Some times I'm surprised it even works at all...

You should have the amp in a few days, let me know how it turns out.
lol, thanks I will!

shoman94 13-Jan-2016 1:42 AM
For shits and giggles I removed the PA-18 and purchased an RCA VH140R (Power splitter/amplifier at Lowe's.

My signal does not jump any more. I also have better signal on a couple channels. I'm still having the same skips with my XBox One and the Hauppauge tuner but it does it about half as much so its an improvement! Hopefully the Juice will will solve it 100%

shoman94 14-Jan-2016 12:10 PM
I'm starting to think that something with the XBOX is the issue. I took the tuner and plugged it into my Win10 Laptop and installed WinTV. No issues with stuttering!

rabbit73 14-Jan-2016 3:23 PM
Quote:
I'm starting to think that something with the XBOX is the issue. I took the tuner and plugged it into my Win10 Laptop and installed WinTV. No issues with stuttering!
That sounds like a good clue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shoman94 (Post 54177)
That doesn't take me to your FM report, it takes me to the page to enter your location. FM reports don't link the same way that tvfool reports link. Based on an estimate of your location, this is your FM report. You can see how close I came:
http://www.fmfool.com/modeling/tmp/a...4/Radar-FM.png

shoman94 14-Jan-2016 3:28 PM
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 (Post 54262)
That sounds like a good clue.

That doesn't take me to your FM report, it takes me to the page to enter your location. FM reports don't link the same way that tvfool reports link. Based on an estimate of your location, this is your FM report. You can see how close I came:
http://www.fmfool.com/modeling/tmp/a...4/Radar-FM.png
I don't know what happened there..... I guess I can't post it the same way. See attached.

shoman94 15-Jan-2016 3:13 AM
I received the JUICE today.... its definately a better preamp and has a controlled signal. It also gave me a few more channels..... but .....I still have the same results. Last night I hooked the tuner directly to my Win 10 PC and everything was great. oh Microsoft!

ADTech 15-Jan-2016 3:28 PM
Did you leave the FM filter(s) installed? The Juice will pass FM amplified which can clobber tuners.

shoman94 15-Jan-2016 3:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADTech (Post 54272)
Did you leave the FM filter(s) installed? The Juice will pass FM amplified which can clobber tuners.
Yes I left them installed. Like I posted above that I believe its something with the XBOX software causing the issue. I found other people complaining about it and that it happened after the last software update. Both my other TVs are not exhibiting these problems and the same tuner plugged into my WIN10 PC is just fine as well, so I'm returning the tuner and picking up and Tivo Roamio OTA box and BestBuy for 50 bucks. I'll post later tonight when I get everything setup. I also ordered a PCT 4 way power distributer which arrives today.

The Juice surely helped with stabilizing the signal and getting me another set of VHF channels I wasn't getting with the PA-18.

shoman94 17-Jan-2016 3:57 PM
Got my Roamio OTA DVR and all is well. Using 2 fm traps, the juice and a PCT 4 port distributer.

Is there any reason why I should move the traps and juice up by the antenna? I have 2 channels (WENH and WPXG ) I get a 30% signal with.... I need 40% for it to play. I don't need them honestly but WPXG would be nice. I'm thinking keeping the traps and juice out of the weather is best. I'm about 30 feet from where the juice and traps are now indoors to the antenna.
Thoughts?

EDIT: For some reason tonight I had some issues (pixelation) with WGME and had to remove the JUICE preamp. This was the first time since getting the antenna I had this issue. For some reason this channel is also about 20% lower then its been since installing my C4V..... screwy!

Edit2: Re-aimed the antenna today. Rehooked the JUICE ... all good again.

shoman94 19-Jan-2016 12:02 AM
1 Attachment(s)
Just to update my progress in case my experience can help someone else.

This TVFOOL: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...51347570c1f198

I have my antenna 20 ft up on a gable mount and its 5 feet above my metal roof and pointed thru a huge pine tree 70 feet away. See image attached.

I have the antenna C4V pointed at 21 degrees magnetic and the VHF antenna mounted on top of the left reflector.

Channels I get 90 to 100% signal:
Real 8, 38, 43 and 35

Channels I get 60 to 89% signal:
Real 44, 45, 23 and 10

Channel 11 comes in sometimes and 33 is just to low to give me a picture.

Equipment:
Antennas Direct C4V, Antennas Direct Juice preamp, 2x Radio Shack FM Traps, PCT 4 Port amplified splitter going to 3 TVs (soon 4).

So I answered my original question with trial and error. I'm ok not using the amplified splitter with the preamp or no preamp and an amplified splitter. But using both together actually increased my signal strength on most channels so I'm keeping both.
My FM traps and Preamp are located indoors 30 feet from the antenna and the amplified splitter is within 18 inches of the preamp inserter.

rickbb 19-Jan-2016 1:41 PM
Assuming that channel 33 is real channel 3, then you will need to point your VHF element at 257 mag. and channel 11 will need the VHF pointed at 253 mag. If you have it pointed the same as your UHF at 21 mag then it's aimed the wrong way.

You might try to split the difference, but, channel 33, (3) has a NM value of only 1.8 and it's a 2 edge so you may never get it without a large old school VHF antenna. (If then.)

ADTech 19-Jan-2016 2:28 PM
Quote:
Assuming that channel 33 is real channel 3, then you will need to point your VHF element at 257 mag. and channel 11 will need the VHF pointed at 253 mag. If you have it pointed the same as your UHF at 21 mag then it's aimed the wrong way.

You might try to split the difference, but, channel 33, (3) has a NM value of only 1.8 and it's a 2 edge so you may never get it without a large old school VHF antenna. (If then.)
Real channel 33 on his plot is WPXG, the ION affiliate from Concord, NH, virtual channel 21. It's off the back of the C4V and it would not be expected to be received at those forecasted levels off the back of any antenna than has any F/B ratio greater than 0.

WORK-LP is presumably still operating under their STA at a measly 58 watts ERP while they wait out the FCC's spectrum actions. That meager signal will never make it to this location.

Quote:
My FM traps and Preamp are located indoors 30 feet from the antenna
You would improve your system noise margin by at least 2 dB if you put the amp immediately at the antenna as is customary.

shoman94 19-Jan-2016 2:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickbb (Post 54331)
Assuming that channel 33 is real channel 3, then you will need to point your VHF element at 257 mag. and channel 11 will need the VHF pointed at 253 mag. If you have it pointed the same as your UHF at 21 mag then it's aimed the wrong way.

You might try to split the difference, but, channel 33, (3) has a NM value of only 1.8 and it's a 2 edge so you may never get it without a large old school VHF antenna. (If then.)
Real 33 is WPXG (ION) Which is on the back side as ADTECH mentioned. Without using a tinlee or a rotor or separate tuners... I highly doubt I'll get it. I don't need the channel I'm happy with it.
Channel 11 is another PBS and I already get 2 other PBS stations so I'm ok with not getting that one as well. The VHF are Di-pole's... I'm not sure it has any gain is any direction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ADTech (Post 54332)
Real channel 33 on his plot is WPXG, the ION affiliate from Concord, NH, virtual channel 21. It's off the back of the C4V and it would not be expected to be received at those forecasted levels off the back of any antenna than has any F/B ratio greater than 0.

WORK-LP is presumably still operating under their STA at a measly 58 watts ERP while they wait out the FCC's spectrum actions. That meager signal will never make it to this location.



You would improve your system noise margin by at least 2 dB if you put the amp immediately at the antenna as is customary.
What would installing the FM traps after the preamp do? The FM trap don't appear to be very weather proof. lol

Tim 19-Jan-2016 3:08 PM
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by shoman94 (Post 54333)
The VHF are Di-pole's... I'm not sure it has any gain is any direction.
A dipole antenna does have gain compared to an omni-directional antenna. It is directional. The maximum signal is received broadside to the antenna on each side making a dipole essentially bi-directional. A dipole receives very poorly off the ends of the antenna elements.

shoman94 19-Jan-2016 3:40 PM
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim (Post 54334)
A dipole antenna does have gain compared to an omni-directional antenna. It is directional. The maximum signal is received broadside to the antenna on each side making a dipole essentially bi-directional. A dipole receives very poorly off the ends of the antenna elements.
Ok I found the chart (see attached) and look like I would benefit to aiming the dipole separately from the panel. Thanks for that.

ADTech 19-Jan-2016 5:55 PM
Quote:
What would installing the FM traps after the preamp do?
Typically, filtering is done prior to amplification to prevent the amplifier from creating distortion products with the amplifier itself.

However, in the case of the Juice, that thing is so tolerant of strong signals it will simply pass any FM signals though it (amplified, of course) without any discernible internally generated distortion. Unfortunately, that would then shift the risk of distortion to the active devices further down the chain such as tuners or any subsequent amps.

In your specific situation [emphasis added], you can readily install the tramps downstream of the Juice's power inserter and still keep any strong FM signals out of the downstream signal path. Since you're filtering post-amplification, you'll essentially need an extra trap in order to knock down the already-amplified FM signals.


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