Antenna Choice advice please

[CHD Dad]

Hello All, I have been lurking a bit and finally figured I would post since I am still a little confused on what to buy.

here is my report - http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...001b34491d8bed

I borrowed a DB4 UHF antenna just to see what we could pick up in our attic. Attic is 2 stories off the ground - faces north. OSB roof with tar paper and asphalt shingles.

We get (virtual) 4, 21, 38, 40 pretty consistently. 62 comes and goes at times. We would love to get 7 and 13 so need a VHF antenna. I would like 62 and even 33 to come in as well.

I was looking at four antennas, two are shorter range and two medium:
RCA ANT751
Wineguard 7000

Antennacraft HBU33 or 22
Wineguard 7694P

Any feedback on those models for my needs? Luckily most stations are in a pretty narrow beam and I can aim right at the main cluster due to the roof facing north. TVF report states I can get away with green for most of them, but distance is out to 65 miles for a couple of channels. That seems pretty far for a basic indoor antenna. I had tried an indoor antenna once and I could only pickup NBC (4) and I think one other.

Forgot to mention - two TV's. Decent run of coax needed due to the way I had to mount and run wires. Maybe 75 - 100ft or so for both.

Antenna will be mounted in attic only. I know rooftop is much better but I have multiple reasons for not going that route. We would rather spend a little more to make the attic work reasonably well vs. trying to roof mount one.

Thanks for any help!

[Tower Guy]

Originally Posted by CHD Dad

We would rather spend a little more to make the attic work reasonably well vs. trying to roof mount one.

All of the antennas that you are considering are too weak for an attic mount. WLOS is 64.3 miles away. The HD7698P might work. WMYA is so close, don't even consider a preamp.

[CHD Dad]

What other antennas should I be looking at if these are too weak? If we drop WLOS will that help much? We are just trying to get the best bang for the buck. We have been using the DB4 for well over a year now and were hoping to upgrade. Even spending double the amount of those antennas listed is still much less than our old Dish bill!

[CHD Dad]

I just looked at the model you suggested. I may have fitment issues with my attic bt would be willing to try it if that is my best option.

Regarding WLOS being so far away. TVF still lists it as "green", on the edge but still. It lists that I should be able to use an indoor antenna for green. How can that be that this station should be listed as the lowest level of antenna needed? I believe most stations are using antennas up in the mountains judging by distance and direction. Does that help?

[John Candle]

With your reception situation , you can not 'just drop' WLOS. A Tv antenna will receive the tv stations that are on further down in the list and the tv stations that are on further up the list. And if you are angling some how to get a antenna that only has enough strength to receive to just above WLOS --> It won't happen. You can not program out tv channels on and with tv antennas , tv antennas receive what ever is coming at them. And WMYA-DT 14 is far to strong at 4 miles away and a signal strength of 66.8 NM(dB) to try and use a small antenna and then try and make up the difference with a preamplifier , it won't work. With the DB4 in the attic you should be receiving more channels then you say you are receiving so something else must be happening here. Are there solar panels on the roof?? Is there radiant shield metal backed insulation in the attic?? Is there problems with the coax wiring - bad connections - bad or to many splitters or incorrect splitters?? I suggest take one long known to be good coax and connect to the DB4 with a known to be good matching transformer and then directly to the Tv. No splices , no splitters , no amplifiers. Go from the antenna and a known to be good matching transformer and the coax cable direct to the Tv. And why are you so ademant about no antenna on the roof??

[John Candle]

Here is how to point Tv antennas , http://www.tvfool.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html

[GroundUrMast]

If we were neighbors, you would see an HD7964P or HBU-33 or 44 on my roof.

Your investigation of signal conditions using the DB-4 tells quite a bit about what you can expect in your attic. The numbers suggest that the attic environment is handicapping your antenna by more than 40 dB of noise margin. Though as JC has suggested -- cable, connectors or splitters could be causing trouble... or all of the above. Definitely worth investigating thoroughly.

The DB-4 specs say it is able to offer 13.7 dBi gain which is about 11.5 dBd. The high performance Winegard HD7698P specs peak at 14.2 dBd in the UHF band. 3 dB of additional gain is not likely to offer much improvement in your situation. The smaller antennas you mention will offer less UHF performance, making your situation worse.

I can't help but conclude that your attic presents some serious reception challenges. Putting a significantly larger antenna in your attic may help... but the data you have already gathered tells me you could put the largest available antenna in your attic and find little improvement.

A DB-8 and a YA-1713 joined with a UVSJ would be more manageable in my attic than a single large combo antenna. (But that doesn't change my opening observations. If you try that option, try to use a dealer with a very liberal return policy.)

As others have observed, you are in a location quite hostile to effective operation of an amplifier. And an amplifier is not a substitute for an antenna anymore than a pump is a substitute for a well with clean water at the bottom.

If you can not or will not consider outdoor mounting, you may be limited to little more than what you receive now. I would be interested to know what you receive if you try the DB-4 outside....

[CHD Dad]

Trying this again... I had a long reply done and for some reason I got logged out and lost it all!

First - thanks for all the info and help.

Second - I got up in my attic and did some playing around with position and direction. I found out that I have two issues up there. One is interference of some sort that is causing my digital hiking compass to go off, the second is the antenna was mounted too low so it was actually aiming through my dormers as well as the roof line. Basically two walls, plus insulation, shingles and siding. In my haste to get out of the extreme heat up there I just mounted it, aimed and got out. This time I took my time early in the morning while it was still tolerable up there.

I now have it mounted interference free and as high as possible to clear the dormers. HUGE difference in reception!

WYCW - 90%
WUNF - 70%

CW would come in occasionally in the past, UNF was a lost cause.

Bigger surprise was CBS coming in which is VHF. It only comes in at 50-60% but it comes in.

We also picked up some repeat PBS stations and a few local access which we dont care about. ABC is still only 10-15% but I expected that being so far away and VHF. I still need to tweak direction since I aimed for CBS to come in stronger we are losing FOX. My wife would rather have FOX vs. CBS so I need to re-aim. I am sure CBS will degrade rapidly once I start rotating away.

This is all encouraging for us. I may try and buy the DB4 from my friend and look into adding a VHF antenna. My worry with a long boom is getting it up high enough to clear the dormers and getting it aimed well. Same with getting a big unit that can do both.

Lastly - I have two main reasons for not roof mounting. The main one is grounding. I am comfortable wiring, I have done a lot of indoor house wiring with both electrical and things like home theaters (yes, with permits). With the storms we have around here I would definitely want to make sure an antenna was grounded well. I need to look into that more on the best way it could be done for safety and aesthetics. The second reason is purely aesthetic. We are rural, but live in a nice neighborhood. We are still fairly new here and still making friends. I know they cant say anything legally, but we still dont want upset neighbors. We would be the only people with an antenna on our roof. Even the satellite guys make sure they are well hidden or disguised.

Again - thanks for the help and tips and I hope to get things worked out for us soon.

[CHD Dad]

Originally Posted by gcd0865

CHD Dad:

You should be able to receive VHF 7, 9 and 13 reliably from your attic if you add a Winegard YA-1713 and connect along with your UHF antenna to a single downlead using a UVSJ:

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=YA1713
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=UVSJ

I've found the same result with attic antennas that you have, namely, that every bit of height is very important. I have my attic antennas mounted at the very highest (central) portion of my attic (so that the horizontal elements are just an inch from the attic roof plywood), using pieces of 1" PVC pipe that I hung from the rafters with a screw through a hole I drilled near the end of each piece. You would want to choose locations for your UHF antenna and your YA-1713 so that neither antenna "aims through" or "points through" the other, while both being as high as possible. Best aiming direction for your YA-1713 would probably be either 333 degrees (directly at WLOS-13, since it is the weakest of your thee VHF stations), or perhaps a little to the right of that to compromise (since WSPA-7 is at 355 degrees but a little closer to you and WNTV-9 is at 337 degress, but even closer yet to you).

Once you add a YA-1713, you should be able to re-aim your DB-4 to maximize UHF reception so that you no longer lose your FOX station. If possible, it might be best to see if you can continue to borrow the DB-4 for another week until you get the YA-1713 installed. That way, you can evaluate the DB-4's performance on its own for your UHF channels only, and decide if you need to purchase a DB-8 instead to ensure sufficient UHF reception.

I looked at the YA-1713 but my concern is boom length. At 100" I may not be able to get the height needed to clear the dormers. Unfortunately it needs to run across the "V" of the roof and not with it. I need to get a 8ft board up there and see what will work and where. I already re-aimed this morning to get FOX back in and we lost CBS. I tried to split the difference but CBS was so weak in the first place I just lost it on our main TV.

Speaking of TV's, I noticed a big difference in tuner ability on our two TV's. One is going on three years (Panny plasma) the other is a brand new Sony. The Panny will drop picture completely around 45%. Even 50% will get a little iffy now and then. The Sony will show pretty decent picture down to 15-20%! It may drop a few pixels here and there, but overall I was shocked at how much better it was at pulling in weak signals. We could watch FOX reliably on the Sony last night when the Panny showed "No Picture Available". Signal strength was the same on both TV's.

[CHD Dad]

Any thoughts on a compact VHF design like the Clearstream5? I could easily mount that up by the DB4 and it has a combiner included. I realize it is nearly twice the cost, but it is a fraction of the size.

[ADTech]

Obviously, my boss would like you to get the C5!

Its a nice compact antenna that does very well on the high-VHF channels since that's what it was designed for. Think of it as the high-VHF version of the ClearStream 1 (since that's essentially what the loop/reflector actually is).

[John Candle]

What is interesting about tuner sensitivity issue is that the manufactures have the data , however the data is not published because the Consumers are Flat Out Not Interested. Consumers are only interested in , aesthetics , image , ego , attitude.

[GroundUrMast]

Glad to hear you were able to improve your situation.

In the attic, a CS-5 is an obvious contender based on size and shape.

An Antennacraft Y5713 is another option. Far more manageable size than the YA10713 or Y10713 (5' long vs. 10')

The two are within about 1 dB of each other...

The CS-5 or Y5713 outside the attic would offer WLOS (13) at a net NM of 40 dB... If you are able to find a sweet spot in your attic, WLOS should be reliable.