Advice for Southern San Diego County

[brian72]

Hey everyone, hoping to get some advice on antenna selection. Thanks in advance to those who run this forum as it's an incredibly valuable tool in addition to the report.

I'm fortunate to live in an area with good reception as you'll see from the link. My wife is from Mexico so while I'm focusing on all the channels to the north she'd like to get everything to the south as well. I bought a Mohu leaf 50 and mounted it behind my TV on the 2nd floor and with a little tweaking was able to get most channels toward the top of the list, although reception on some was weak. Channel 8 and 10 are the farthest north, and have the weakest signal. The other towers can actually be seen from my kitchen window. Although the antenna was on a wall on the north side of the house, I still got a number of channels south of the border. Not bad for an indoor antenna!

I figure to get a stronger signal and split the signal to 3 TVs in my house I'll need a little better antenna mounted either in the attic or outside the house. I'd prefer to get something that won't draw ire from my HOA (in case outside works best) and was considering the Mohu Sky 60 or comparable Amazon basics model, but perhaps there are better models that I should look at. Based on the report and success with the indoor antenna I'm assuming the small amplifier that comes with those will suffice and may not even be needed. Also I'm assuming the multidirectional function on the Sky will help get channels from opposite directions, but am wondering if that's more marketing BS and I'd be better off with 2 antenna's facing north and south.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8e03878d999435

[Jake V]

If this were me and I wanted all the greens and maybe a few yellows, I'd get a DB-8e and remove the reflectors. Then aim one panel at 190 degrees on a compass (which would also get the stations at 7 degrees and 352 degrees) and the other panel at 310 degrees (which would get the stations at 121 degrees. The VHF attachment can be added if you don't get the VHF channels with that antenna.

That's the luxury option.

You may first try an ANT-751 aimed at 190 degrees on a compass. You have a lot of stations in other directions that just might come in.

[brian72]

Thanks for the input, but the DB8 might be a tight fit in my attic, and neither would fly if mounted outside due to HOA rules. Any opinion on the two I mentioned?

[ADTech]

HOA rules regarding outdoor mounting of antennas were largely preempted by federal law almost 20 years ago. See https://www.fcc.gov/guides/over-air-...n-devices-rule.

San Diego area antenna users have a complicated setup due to the three primary transmitters sites: Mt San Miguel, La Jolla, and Tijuana.

There's no need for either the DB8 or the DB8e. The ClearStream 2V is the ideal option for much of San Diego but you will need to make an adaptation as follows:

You will probably need a longer mast. If you're in an attic, then almost anything from an old broom handle, a piece of plastic pipe, or anything similar may be used.

Assemble the basic antenna WITHOUT the reflector screen. Mount it to the pole and situate is so that it's oriented with the loop openings facing generally north/south and adjust for best reception of your UHF stations.

Add the VHF module to the system attached separately to the mast but rotated so it is perpendicular to the direction of La Jolla. Adjust as needed. See below.

What this does is create a UHF antenna that is bi-directional north/south and a bidirectional VHF antenna that is NW/SE, both with an effective beamwidth of 65-70°.

You do not need nor should you use any amplifiers, they are unlikely to help and are far more likely to cause new problems.

One complication that I do see is related to your desire to provide Mexican programming for your wife's viewing. Estrella TV is carried in the SD area on KSDX-LD, a low power channel 9 signal from Mt San Miguel. Because of this, you'll probably need to see if you can readjust the VHF dipole so it's facing more towards the north or even more easterly to see if you can cover both VHF transmitter sites.

If you have problems with reception of VHF channels, the first thing to do would be to install an FM filter.

[brian72]

Originally Posted by ADTech

HOA rules regarding outdoor mounting of antennas were largely preempted by federal law almost 20 years ago. See https://www.fcc.gov/guides/over-air-...n-devices-rule.

San Diego area antenna users have a complicated setup due to the three primary transmitters sites: Mt San Miguel, La Jolla, and Tijuana.

There's no need for either the DB8 or the DB8e. The ClearStream 2V is the ideal option for much of San Diego but you will need to make an adaptation as follows:

You will probably need a longer mast. If you're in an attic, then almost anything from an old broom handle, a piece of plastic pipe, or anything similar may be used.

Assemble the basic antenna WITHOUT the reflector screen. Mount it to the pole and situate is so that it's oriented with the loop openings facing generally north/south and adjust for best reception of your UHF stations.

Add the VHF module to the system attached separately to the mast but rotated so it is perpendicular to the direction of La Jolla. Adjust as needed. See below.

What this does is create a UHF antenna that is bi-directional north/south and a bidirectional VHF antenna that is NW/SE, both with an effective beamwidth of 65-70°.

You do not need nor should you use any amplifiers, they are unlikely to help and are far more likely to cause new problems.

One complication that I do see is related to your desire to provide Mexican programming for your wife's viewing. Estrella TV is carried in the SD area on KSDX-LD, a low power channel 9 signal from Mt San Miguel. Because of this, you'll probably need to see if you can readjust the VHF dipole so it's facing more towards the north or even more easterly to see if you can cover both VHF transmitter sites.

If you have problems with reception of VHF channels, the first thing to do would be to install an FM filter.

Nice to know I can tell a concerned HOA to shove it. Thanks for the education on that subject. I had no idea. That said, if I do end up outside I would like to have a clean looking install, so I'm a bit concerned about installing without the reflector screen. Based on my distance would you say the chances of success in the attic are pretty high? I have tile roofing on my house as do most here in SD. If it will work in the attic then I won't care how clean it looks. Also it appears the 2V already comes with the VHF kit, but there's an option to add it on the website. What am I missing there?

I could certainly try it out fairly quickly to test before installing and running all the coax. Thanks again for the feedback.

[ADTech]

The plot suggests that an attic install will *probably* do just fine. There's only one way to find out....

Yes, the C2V already comes with the VHF kit. Because of the odd angles of your UHF vs the VHF transmitter locations, the "stock" configuration may not serve as well as a "custom" configuration, hence my advice above. You can certainly try it in the *stock* configuration, it might do just fine.

We sell the VHF kit as a separate add-on accessory for those folks who already have a UHF antenna and need to supplement it for VHF. It's also useful for "roll your own" configurations where the UHF signal requirements are much more demanding but VHF is moderately easy. For example, we bundle the kit with the DB4e quite often.

[brian72]

Originally Posted by ADTech

The plot suggests that an attic install will *probably* do just fine. There's only one way to find out....

Yes, the C2V already comes with the VHF kit. Because of the odd angles of your UHF vs the VHF transmitter locations, the "stock" configuration may not serve as well as a "custom" configuration, hence my advice above. You can certainly try it in the *stock* configuration, it might do just fine.

We sell the VHF kit as a separate add-on accessory for those folks who already have a UHF antenna and need to supplement it for VHF. It's also useful for "roll your own" configurations where the UHF signal requirements are much more demanding but VHF is moderately easy. For example, we bundle the kit with the DB4e quite often.

Thanks for the help. After a little research on my own I think I'm definitely sold on the C2V. I'll pick one up and give it a try and let you know how it works!

[brian72]

Can you also suggest a splitter for a 3 TV setup? One run will be less than 50 ft and the other two less than 25 feet. I'm assuming a non-amplified splitter will suffice if I'm using good cable.

[ADTech]

Try one of these: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Ideal-2-4...-333/202276265

[brian72]

So I got the Clearstream 2 Complete, ran cables to 2 of 3 TVs (the downstairs TV will require a bit more work to identify the best route for the cable), set up the antenna in my attic, and for the most part am very happy with the results. I tried the multi-directional setup as described, but had better success with the stock setup pointed at 191 degrees. I get more channels with different orientations but then lose one or two of the must have channels.

Shockingly, in some directions I even pulled in KCOP, KTTV, KTLA, and KCBS - LA stations 120 miles away! How is this even possible? I'm really tempted to try this outside and see what it can do, but need to mess around a little more with direction and location in my attic. Very impressed with this little antenna. I'm using nothing but a 3 way splitter.

My initial goal of pulling in the major networks and a few key stations from Mexico has been achieved and surpassed, but with the results I am now getting a bit greedy, lol. Any suggestions to further improve are much appreciated!

[ADTech]

How is this even possible?

The stations in LA are on a 6,000 foot mountain which gives them tremendous coverage range as long as mountains don't get in the way. Receiving the LA stations in the San Diego area is not uncommon, especially during certain types of weather conditions (inversions, coastal/marine layers, etc). It doesn't hurt that part of the signal path to LA is over the water in the area west of Oceanside, either. Propagation across water is about as good as it gets in the absence of other factors.

[brian72]

One other question. Since the antenna is in my attic, and I've run coax that is completely independent of the existing coax, I'm assuming that the antenna does not need to be grounded. Correct?

[rabbit73]

The NEC doesn't require an attic antenna to be grounded. However, from my personal experience, I suggest that the coax be grounded with a grounding block that is connected to the house electrical system ground with 10 gauge copper wire.

If one of the runs of coax is connected to a piece of equipment that has a 3-wire power cord connected to a good 3-wire outlet, that would probably be sufficient.

I'm concerned about personal electrical safety. All AC operated equipment has leakage current, even when operating properly. Just because you can't feel it, doesn't mean it isn't there. If any piece of equipment becomes defective, you would be protected from shock.

I have had three close calls with shock, so I'm probably more concerned than most people. I learned about leakage current when I was doing a calibration test of a converter box for a friend, and felt a mild shock. I couldn't rest until I found out why.



Here is another case of potential leakage current shock from equipment that was operating properly:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/81-o...ml#post1457594

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/81-o...ml#post1457668

[rabbit73]

Leakage Current Tests of Equipment Used for CECB Calibration

When I was calibrating an Apex DT502 signal strength bar with a SLM (Signal Level Meter) I noticed a slight shock when I touched ground and the equipment case. Because I didn't want to use, or pass on, dangerous equipment I tested the equipment that I was using for calibration with my Simpson 229 Leakage Current Tester.
Apex #1: 22 VAC, 52 µA (micoamperes)
Apex #4: 21 VAC, 50 µA
Apex #1 & #4 together: 30 VAC, 100 µA (note that the leakage currents add)
2 Audiovox PLV16081 8" TV/Monitors: 21 VAC, 24 µA each
CM 0747 Power Supply/Inserter for CM 7777, plug inserted correctly: ~1 VAC, ~1 µA
CM 0747 Power Supply/Inserter for CM 7777, plug inserted reversed: 14 VAC, 33 µA
Sony KDL22L5000 TV: 24 VAC, 52 µA
Sadelco 719E SLM with AC Adapter/Charger: ~1 µA
Radio Shack 15-1115 Preamp with AC Adapter: ~1 µA

Leakage current tests must be made under 4 conditions: power on and off with plug normal, power on and off with plug reversed. With the exception of the CM 0747, all equipment gave the same readings under the 4 conditions. The 0747 has a 3.3 Meg resistor from ground to one side of the line, presumably to drain a static charge from the coax shield , which explains the difference in leakage current readings.

The Apex boxes and the 8" TVs have switchmode power supplies that have higher leakage currents. The AC adapters for the SLM and the RS preamp use a transformer adapter which has good isolation from the AC line.

CONCLUSIONS:

All pieces of equipment tested are safe to use individually as per the guidelines in the Simpson manual and other standards. However, when other equipment is connected, the leakage currents add as demonstrated by connecting the two Apex boxes together. This means that when pieces of equipment that have 2-wire power cords are connected together, even when the polarized plugs are correctly inserted, it is advisable to ground the cabinets and coax. Before I grounded the interconnected equipment that I was using, the AC voltage to ground was 40 volts, and the total measured leakage current was about 200 µA.

I originally bought the Simpson tester because of three close calls. One was because of my carelessness, the other two were because of the stupidity of others.

Many years ago a neighbor asked me to help him connect his new TV. He was having trouble because the polarized 2-wire plug wouldn't go into the AC receptacle, so he filed down the wider prong (neutral). I asked him why he hadn't just turned the plug around so that the wider prong would go into the longer slot. He looked at the outlet, looked at the plug, and then looked at me and said: "Oh."

Best regards,
rabbit
January 12, 2010; revised June 24, 2015

[brian72]

Originally Posted by rabbit73

If one of the runs of coax is connected to a piece of equipment that has a 3-wire power cord connected to a good 3-wire outlet, that would probably be sufficient.

Would that include the 3 TVs they're connected to? The ground for the house is pretty far from my splitter in the attic, but I do want to be cautious. None of the coax exits the house at any point.

[brian72]

Originally Posted by ADTech

Assemble the basic antenna WITHOUT the reflector screen. Mount it to the pole and situate is so that it's oriented with the loop openings facing generally north/south and adjust for best reception of your UHF stations.

Add the VHF module to the system attached separately to the mast but rotated so it is perpendicular to the direction of La Jolla. Adjust as needed. See below.

What this does is create a UHF antenna that is bi-directional north/south and a bidirectional VHF antenna that is NW/SE, both with an effective beamwidth of 65-70°.

You do not need nor should you use any amplifiers, they are unlikely to help and are far more likely to cause new problems.

One complication that I do see is related to your desire to provide Mexican programming for your wife's viewing. Estrella TV is carried in the SD area on KSDX-LD, a low power channel 9 signal from Mt San Miguel. Because of this, you'll probably need to see if you can readjust the VHF dipole so it's facing more towards the north or even more easterly to see if you can cover both VHF transmitter sites.

If you have problems with reception of VHF channels, the first thing to do would be to install an FM filter.

Messed around with aiming the antenna for several hours last night, and strangely the best results I got was by aiming it at 145 deg. I'm guessing that's because mostly everything to the north is line-of-sight (I can see the towers from my window), and I have a small hill and some houses to the south. Strangely though, while I can pull in real channel 32 and 34 (XEWT and XHAS), I can't get 28 (XHJK). Those all appear to be in the same location. Also KBNT won't come in, but KGTV and KFMB are very strong. Any ideas?

[ADTech]

As long as the antenna is not installed in "free air", predicting its reception is prone to large amounts of error due to the environment around the antenna, ie, the attic.

I can't get 28 (XHJK)

XHJK appears to operate a multi-transmitter Single Frequency Network (SFN) arrangement on channel 28. If signals from two or more transmitters arrives at the transmitters with enough time shift between them, the tuner cannot resolve either signal. Try moving the antenna a few feet in different directions and see if there's any improvement.

KBNT won't come in, but KGTV and KFMB are very strong

KBNT transmits on UHF 25 from Mt Soledad, the same location as channels 8 & 10. While the C2V is bi-directional on VHF, it is not so on UHF. That's why, back in post #4, I specifically recommended assembly without the reflector. My comments and suggestions for the attic location above still applies.

[brian72]

Originally Posted by ADTech

As long as the antenna is not installed in "free air", predicting its reception is prone to large amounts of error due to the environment around the antenna, ie, the attic.



XHJK appears to operate a multi-transmitter Single Frequency Network (SFN) arrangement on channel 28. If signals from two or more transmitters arrives at the transmitters with enough time shift between them, the tuner cannot resolve either signal. Try moving the antenna a few feet in different directions and see if there's any improvement.



KBNT transmits on UHF 25 from Mt Soledad, the same location as channels 8 & 10. While the C2V is bi-directional on VHF, it is not so on UHF. That's why, back in post #4, I specifically recommended assembly without the reflector. My comments and suggestions for the attic location above still applies.

Thanks for the reply. I'll remove the reflector and play around with positioning a bit more. While I did try it without the reflector I didn't try it in the orientation I have now.