Antenna suggestion needed for one far and many close stations

[tomfoolery]

New member here, hopefully posting enough and not too much background for this application. Here's the TV Fool signal analysis result for 15 ft AGL

The local stations, about 5-1/2 miles out, come in strong on a $2 clip-on bowtie I've had for decades, with about 2 ft of twin lead into a cheap balun right at the TV. Ch 8.1 (45) registers 100% most of the time, and the other close UHF channels are at or above 90%. 10 and 13 on high-VHF are typically in the 80's, without dropouts most of the time, though some days are better than others. That's with the bowtie laying flat near the floor on a stack of DVDs, on the far east end of the house. The signals are passing through and/or around a LOT of walls and even kitchen appliances like the ovens and refrigerator. Not much to complain about there as far as signal strength goes. That bowtie seems to work better than a cheap set-top rabbit ears and loop unit I recently gave away, even on VHF. Go figure.

What I'm trying to do though is get ch 51.1 (23), which is over 30 miles away. For that I need a better antenna.

The only place I can put one is in my garage attic. If I mounted it on the gable end, it would point right into an evergreen, and I don't want to mount to the shingled hip roof. So in the attic it will go, along with my FM6. The only place I can put it so that it's not looking into my neighbor's house, AND so it's not looking into a tree for channel 51.1, is where I've shown on the photo. The roof it would be looking through faces 283 magnetic, so the local stations are only 5 degrees south of that.

But channel 51.1 would result in the antenna pointing into the sea of trusses with their metal joints, and I don't what to make of that. I originally thought an inexpensive 2-bay or 4-bay would be ok, like the U2000 or U4000, given the strong signal on 10 and 13 with just that little 1-bay I'm experimenting with (I know - they're not UHF, but neither is my single bowtie), so I started researching the ANT751 or HBU-11, which come with a mounting bracket for convenience. Or do I need something with higher gain to get 51.1?

The roof is plywood with asphalt shingles, with no metal foil or other signal blocking materials that I'm aware of. It will take about 100 ft of RG-6 with no splitters and hopefully no amplifier to get from the antenna to the TV.

My in-laws down the street have some trouble getting 51.1 with an HBU-22 and amplifier, but that's probably due to the antenna pointing straight into a wall of evergreen hedges only 20 ft away that you can't see daylight through, and which are a good 5-10 ft taller than the 15 ft antenna elevation. So there's nothing I can learn from their installation, I guess.

What would you folks do? I'm trying to keep the cost down, as this is more experimental than practical at this point, though every time I see that cable bill, I get closer to cutting the damn cord. And the two football games plus the World Series games yesterday were in higher definition OTA than Time-Warner Cable delivered, using a $2 bowtie.

Pics below show what I'm up against, though it looks worse because they're taken from only 6 ft AGL



View from antenna installation for most stations



View from antenna installation for channel 51.1



Mounted to this diagonal, antenna will look into the trusses for 250 magnetic, almost straight out the side for all the others.

Thanks in advance for any and all suggestions.

[GroundUrMast]

My fist thought on seeing your TVFR, ANT-751. You could go larger if you were going to split many ways... This would ensure that no amplifier would be needed.

I would mount outdoors, clear of obstructing vegetation and buildings (including my own house).

What's the make/model of the antenna in the photo? It looks like an FM antenna (aimed backward), but not certain. It's certainly not a UHF antenna.

Use a Channel Master CM4228HD antenna aimed at about 250 degree magnetic compass direction.

As to the mounting location , you are are aware of advantages and disadvantages of different locations.

You know that the closer the trees are to the reception location the worse reception will be. The reception improves as the trees are more distant.

Reception improves when trees are avoided.

Reception improves if can get antenna higher then trees.

Reception improves if can aim under trees in such a way that the reception path is more clear.

As to attics , you know about the advantages and diadvantages of attics.

You will find a location that works.

The signal strengths are strong , a amplifier should not be required.

Here are some places to buy antennas and etc. .

www.solidsignal.com

www.amazon.com

www.channelmasterstore.com

[tomfoolery]

Oh, sorry - I didn't want to clutter up my post with even more info. It's hard to tell what's enough and what's too much, especially in a subject that's not in my comfort zone.

It's an Antennacraft FM6, which is working absolutely flawlessly for what I needed it for (low power station at 15 miles and 315 deg. mag., on 90.1 MHz). Actually too well, but that's for another post on the FM forum.

For scale, in the attic picture, the trusses at the far end are 12 ft deep into the picture, then there's a 12 ft section of conventional joist and rafter framing towards the camera, and the diagonal brace where the arrow starts is 4 ft this side of the nearest truss. There's a skylight box at the right, in line with that diagonal kicker (and presumably with metal flashing around the perimeter), but the main cluster of transmitters would be a bit to the left of the skylight looking at the roof.

In the sketch below, you can see a spruce tree that would block the antenna from the 250 deg transmitter if I mounted it on the gable end of the house, which is the only practical outdoor place to mount one. The roof is new, and mounting directly to it is just not an option.

The little box between the two transmitter vectors is just an A/C unit on the ground, far below the antenna. I forgot to scrape it off before capturing the screen shot.

There will be only one TV on this antenna, which is a new 60" (or thereabouts) Panasonic plasma. Does 1080p on a blue ray player, and 1080i on many OTA channels. I don't want to get into splitters or amplifiers if I don't have to, though if things go according to plan (cutting the cord), I may end up putting more on it eventually, in which case an amp will probably be required. But at least it'll be under a roof.

I was hoping the HBU11 would be a viable antenna, as it's pretty cost effective. I'm guessing a 2-bay or 4-bay like the U-2000/4000 aren't suitable since they're UHF only (even that close?). After studying the space for a while, it appears a larger h-vhf/uhf antenna like the Wineguard HD 7694P would fit fine, aimed at 250 degrees, but I'm concerned about too much signal with transmitters only a few miles away.

I'd just buy and try, but that can get expensive fast if I can't return one that doesn't work the way I hope.

[GroundUrMast]

It sounds as if you're intent on making an attic install work.

Skip the ANT-751 and HBU-11. Go large, the CM-4228 (dicey H-VHF support) or Antennas Direct DB4e + Antennacraft Y5713 + UVSJ (Y10713 if it can fit).

[tomfoolery]

Originally Posted by GroundUrMast

It sounds as if you're intent on making an attic install work.

I'm afraid so. Outdoor just isn't feasible in this house. But the good news is that we plan on moving south in a couple of years, and I'll be looking at locations with an eye toward OTA reception, now that I know enough to be dangerous.

The CM4228HD does not have "dicey" VHF supprot.

The VHF reception is Ok.

The CM4228HD antenna is designed to receive UHF channels 14 thru 51 and VHF channels 7 thru 13.

The 2 VHF high band channels to receive are

WHEC-TV channel 10 is 66.3 NM (dB) very strong signal strength and is 5.5 miles away and is LOS=Line of Sight.

WHAM-TV channel 13 is , 65.5 NM (dB) very strong signal strength and is 5.5 miles away and is LOS= Line of Sight.

These Tv stations will easily be received by the CM4228HD antenna.

[GroundUrMast]

If we were discussing an outdoor installation I would accept the "dicey", "Ok", VHF performance of the 4228. In the attic, extra antenna performance is prudent.

While Channel Master's ad copy does claim H-VHF capability, I find it troublesome that their catalog performance data (PP-10) indicates the Average Gain is "N/A".

In the end, If the 4228 can be had for $82 shipped and it works by itself, great. http://www.amazon.com/Channel-Master...ords=cm-4228hd

On the other hand, the DB4e is $53 shipped and the Y5713 is $27 shipped. http://www.amazon.com/Antennas-Direc...&keywords=db4e http://www.amazon.com/Antennacraft-Y...ywords=y5713to. Even though you need to add a UVSJ to the list, it seems close enough to consider using an antenna that has intentional support of H-VHF.

If you have a chimney , here are chimney antenna mounts.

www.ronard.com/ychim.html
Measure around the chimney and use a , ronard(2212) , ronard(2218) , ronard(2224) .

Buy the ronard chimney mounts at , www.solidsignal.com by typing , ronard(x) in the solidsignal search box or buy from , www.ronard.com

Here is a independent review of the CM4228HD and Y10713 and other antennas.

http://www.antennahacks.com/Comparis...F_Shootout.htm

This independent reviewer is not a high flying techno wizard.

He is a person that is after the truth.

[tomfoolery]

Originally Posted by teleview

If you have a chimney , here are chimney antenna mounts.

I have a chimney, but it's on the opposite end of the house, and would put all of the vectors right into an even larger line of blue spruces, then the neighbor's huge sugar maples, to the south of the one tree shown at the fence line. It's a solid wall of very large trees just behind that fence.

Where I've shown it is the only location that has a clear shot beyond my property line, although I could move it to the ridge (red centerline), but I can't mount it to the roof. Maybe next house.

So it looks like the DB4e or CM4228HD would be the way to go. Maybe I'll try the DB4e, aimed at the single far station (250 deg), and augment with the Y5713 if the two VHF stations to the west are too weak. It's the cheapest way to get started at least.

I'm getting all but that farthest one (UHF) now with a tiny bowtie just dangling from the bottom of the TV, including the two H-VHF stations, so hopefully the UHF array will get enough to receive them without augmentation, but if that's not the case, the second antenna is cheap enough.

Thanks everyone for all the help.

Very confusing stuff.

The , www.channelmasterstore.com , web site is showing that the Technical Specifications for the CM4228HD is

Average gain of the VHF high band channels is 5 dB.

Average gain of the UHF band channels is 12 dB.

-------

WHEC-TV , VHF high band channel 10 , is a Very Strong signal strength , 66.3 NM (dB) .

WHAM-TV , VHF high band channel 13 , is a Very Strong signal strength , 65.5 NM (dB) .

More then enough signal strength for reception.

[tomfoolery]

I ordered the DB4e, and ran the cable to the attic in advance. For grins, I put the dipole rabbit ears from a portable set on the end of the RG6, and got all the stations, though 51.1 was only around 75% or so. The others UHF stations were in the low 90's or better, and the two VHF were both at 100%.

So for grins I switched it out with a little bowtie I had that was designed to clip onto rabbit ears. 51.1 came in at 90+%, and all the other UHF were at 100%. VHF was never less than 90%.

Today I got the DB4e, mounted it, scanned, and got 100% on every station, plus 49.x which I couldn't get at all before, but the signal never went above about 55%, and it was unwatchable. Moving it around a number of times, the best it got was sitting on the floor joists, but that negatively affected the stations I wanted, so it's hanging off a pole now.

Next step is to move it outside. If I can get that weak station (sort of) inside that attic space, I may stand a real chance of getting it and it's 4 or 5 subchannels when it's outside. 51.1 may be behind the scrubby tree if I mount it on the gable end on a j-pole, but it's worth a try. Maybe next spring.

Thanks all for the help. The DB4e was a good choice, even with the two VHF stations (which are close, and strong).