Struggling with OTA

[Cochlea]

My fool report:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...267e1bdf6f02e7

Current setup:
Attic mounted (rented house)
Eagle Aspen DTV2B UHF
Antenna Craft Y5-7-13 at roughly 290
combined into a Pico Macom UVSJ

All cable is RG6
6 feet from antennas to UVSJ
25 feet from UVSJ to splitter (trying to provide signal to 2 sets)
30-35 feet (estimated) to each set.

I get WNBW (NBC) perfectly through the y5-7-13 (presumably!).

Can't seem to get all of the UHF channels at once, with appropriate quality.
WCJB (ABC) @ 148
WOGX (Fox) @ 158
WUFT (PBS) @ 15
WGFL (CBS) @ 291

Adjusting the position of the DTV2B typically can get WCJB and WUFT with good quality, and poor signal for WGFL and WOGX, OR can get WGFL strong, everything else poor. WOGX seems hard to get a good signal in most positions.

I currently have the shield installed on the DTV2B (okay I'm new at this, I have the thing that looks like a BBQ grill cover-- I'm calling this the shield, cuz I think I saw someone else call it this-- bolted on to the bowties). I tried it initially without the shield, but not as thoroughly tested.

Any help appreciated. Thanks.

[GroundUrMast]

If your home is a single family residence, the FCC is on your side, defending your right to mount an antenna on the roof if necessary. If this is a multi-unit dwelling, you have the right to use the area that you have rented or leased for your exclusive use. The landlord can impose reasonable requirements that prevent damage to their property.

Installing Consumer-Owned Antennas and Satellite Dishes
Over-the-Air Reception Devices Rule

Reception in attics can be difficult.

Consider testing UHF reception with the DTV2B outdoors, preferably above the peak of the roof. Try facing the the antenna toward 315° per your compass. Try with the reflector installed and without.

Chimney mounts and vent-pipe mounts can be used without needing to drill into the building. http://www.3starinc.com/antenna_mounts_masts.html

[Cochlea]

Thanks for the reply GroundUrMast.

I didn't know how well grounded my rights to install an antenna are, and that is very interesting.

My landlord is actually a very kind, helpful guy, and he'd prefer that I don't. It's worth it to me to work to find a solution that pleases all.

Thanks for your other suggestions too.

[Electron]

This recommendation is based on the Pending Applications Included Only Digital Tv Stations. If the attic is wood and there is no metal siding on the outside of the building and the roof is not metal the antennas should receive Ok. Remove the reflector screen from UHF antenna TDV2B and aim the DTV2B at about 150 degree magnetic compass. With the reflector screen removed the DTV2B will receive at the front and back of the antenna so the 3 main groups of UHF tv stations can be received. Try aiming the Y5713 at about 335 degree magnetic compass for the reception of WRUF digital channel 5 and WNBW digital channel 9 , If WRUF is not received then aim the Y5713 at about 287 degree magnetic compass for the best reception of WNBC digital channel 9 NBC. The Y5713 is not desinged to receive channel 5 but who knows it might come in. Here is how to aim antennas , http://www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html. WNFT 15 is CBS , W40CQ 40 is PBS , WRUF 5 is weather news sports , WNBW 9 is NBC , W23DG 23 is unknown.

[Cochlea]

Thank you both for your help.

My reception has improved markedly.

The changes I made included:

I went to a 4 bow-tie style antenna (AntennasDirect db4e) without the reflector grill installed.
I put the antenna much higher up in the attic. It's aimed with the broadside facing at about 310deg. This just seemed to work best.

Perhaps the most important changes were these: I noticed that the cable coming from my wall and going into my TV, though only about 6ft long was not quad-shielded RG6 cable. Changing this out seemed to make a big difference. When adjusting the antenna's position, I didn't always run an autoscan, I have found this to be very important.

I have trouble with intermittent signal disturbances still. The disturbances are rare, tend to happen in the afternoon or evening, and usually last for less than 5 minutes. It never happens on the VHF channel, only the UHF ones are impacted. Any thoughts?

[Electron]

With the reflector screen removed the DB4e receives equeal at the front of the antenna and the back of the antenna. Aiming one side of the DB4e at 150 degree magnetic compass makes the other side 330 degree magnetic compass. Those are starting aim directions. As always a antenna is turned to the left and right to find the best reception. So one side of the antenna at 310 and the other side is 130 is the best aim directions. Is the Y5713 connected?? And what direction is the Y5713 aimed at ?? Using the tv stations call letters as listed in the tvfool radar report and the ones I listed for you , what UHF stations are having situations. And are WRUF-LD VHF low band channel 5 and WNBW-DT VHF high band channel 9 being received??

[Cochlea]

The Y5713 is connected, it's pointed at about 290. I didn't say much about it because it works like a champ-- meaning that WNBW (9.1) is rock solid, never has a even the slightest glitch. If it matters, my signal meter reads 88% for this channel and essentially never wavers. WRUF (10.1) also seems to work essentially all of the time, without problems. WRUF is basically just a weather map, so I don't really watch it for any extended period of time. Signal meter is consistently in the 60s, but it doesn't seem to matter.

The other channels I get are these:
WCJB-DT (ABC) 20.1
WOGX (Fox) 51.1
WUFT (PBS) 5.1
WGFL (CBS) 28.1
WMYG 28.2
WCJB-DT2 20.2
I also get a channel at 9.2 (don't know the call sign)
and 5.2 and 5.3 are subchannels of WUFT.

I saw the other stations listed in your post, and on the fool report. I don't really know what to say about them. I got W40CQ to come in once, but only for a few minutes (no big loss-- I don't really need another PBS channel). The other channels listed don't really seem to exist, like WNFT for example.

All of the channels except 9.1, 9.2, and 10.1 experience transient signal problems. Seemingly the problem can happen to any of the UHF channels. The problem is that the signal strength will suddenly fluctuate and I'll get sound and picture distortions. The problem might last for about 5 minutes, and then stop. What I find strange is that the signal strength may list above 90%, but bounce around a bit in the 90s, but still the image and sound degrade.

Signal strength numbers are almost always above 85% for all but WUFT (80-85), and WRUF (60s, with no probs as mentioned above). I routinely get above 95% for wgfl.

I thought the problem was noise introduced by my HVAC, so I rerouted the cable. I have figured out that I get the problem even if the HVAC isn't on, though it is less common, so maybe it is noise from something.

Other things I've noticed about the problem is that I can't recall it happening in the morning-- I try to make adjustments to my setup in the AM because the attic is cooler. I get everything perfect and watch for 2 hours or so, no problems. I turn the TV off, do a few things, and turn it back on again in the afternoon, and the problem is there.

It also seems to happen right when I turn the TV on, and lasts a few minutes and then stops-- almost like the tuner has to warm up a bit.

[Electron]

FYI. There are REAL channels that are transmitted and received and there are Virtual channels. Virtual channels are in most cases are the tv stations Legacy analog channel number , the tv station kept the legacy channel number during the switch to digital even if the tv station is now transmitting on a different channel. And then there are the repeater stations , a repeater station receives the main tv station and retransmits on a different channel , so what you see on the tv screen is the main tv stations channel number , not the actual channel of the repeater. In any event , the REAL and Actual channel that is being transmitted and received is what is important. Tv antennas are to be selected by the REAL channel. Tvfool lists the REAL and Virtual channel numbers in the tvfool radar report. You are receptive to doing what takes to get good reception. You are correct that electric and electronic noise will cause reception dificulties and so will multipath (reflected tv siganals) Arriving at the antenna out of phase with the main signal. To reduce noise and multipath , use a coax ground block and ground wire connected to the building ground rod or the ground rod wire that is connected to the ground rod at the electric service box of the building. The coax ground block can be connected close to the antennas and a ground wire run to the building ground. Grounding the outer shield of the coax with a ground block will direct interference to ground. . It looks like WNFT is off the air and will not be back.

[Electron]

W40CQ-D 40 is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WACX. . I look the tv stations up by typing the tv stations call sign in the Google search box like this as an example , wcjb tv , google will return a list of web site links , the 2 main links are Wikipedia and rabbitears.info.

[Electron]

Here is a above the roof mount that does not make holes. http://www.ronard.com/ventmnt.html. http://www.ronard.com

[Cochlea]

The ground block does sound like a good idea to help reduce noise and interference. I'll look into it, any specific type or spec?

Thank you also for your description of real and virtual channels. I knew the rough idea of this, but I didn't know if when folks talk about channels in message threads whether it is convention to use the real channel numbers, or the virtual ones.

I've spent a good deal of time trying to research what channels are active in my area, and have read posts from folks reporting which channels they are able to receive in my area. So I suspected that some of the call signs listed on the tvfool report, such as WNFT, were no longer active.

It's clear to me that the greatest potential for improving my reception lies in moving the antenna outside. Thank you for the link on the mounts. As I mentioned in the earlier post, it is a rental house, and I have thought out what it would take to mount the two antennas outside, and it's an awful lot for a place that I will only be at for about 9 more months. Your advice is well received.

I have really enjoyed learning about antennas and the associated body of knowledge necessary to get good reception. I really look forward to getting a nice setup when I get my own house.

I do live in a very active area of lightning, though, and have lost televisions (cable, no antenna), phones, and even computers to lightning in the past. Are there good ways to protect my television from lightning when using an outdoor antenna?

[GroundUrMast]

I do live in a very active area of lightning, though, and have lost televisions (cable, no antenna), phones, and even computers to lightning in the past. Are there good ways to protect my television from lightning when using an outdoor antenna?

Grounding the mast and coax shield are prudent and relatively inexpensive steps that limit the buildup of static-electricity which can damage the tuner. When done correctly, grounding can also reduce the risk caused by a nearby lighting strike.

http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=901

Grounding in a basic system is a two step process:

1) Connect a #10 gauge copper wire to the antenna mast. A bronze ground clamp such as the Halex #36020 is well suited for this application. Run the wire directly to the electrical service ground. Avoid sharp bends in the wire. (Often you can use a 'split-bolt' electrical connector to clamp the #10 wire to the existing ground wire close to the ground rod outside the building. If possible, avoid running the new ground wire inside the building, energy from static or electrical storms is best directed to ground before it has any path into the building. The wire can be bare or insulated, your choice.)

2) Run the coax from the antenna to a location close to the electrical service ground. Install a ground block and with another peice of #10 wire, connect it to the electrical service ground at the same point you connected the mast ground.

I don't recommend short-cuts such as driving a new ground rod that is not connected to the existing electrical service ground. An isolated ground rod often has a high resistance that provides very limited ground connection. The goal is to connect to the same ground system that protects the rest of the home.

Surge protectors located inside outlet strips at the TV, computer or similar devises are worth consideration. A surge protector with a high joule rating is able to absorb more fault energy than a unit with a lower joule rating. Some surge protection units include phone jacks and F-connectors to enable protection of a phone line, coax cable and the power cable(s). However, in the case of an outdoor mounted antenna, this type of protection should not be considered a 'first-line of defense'.

[Electron]

Type , coax ground block , in the http://solidsignal.com , search box. . For the actual reception of broadcast television one needs to know the actual channels that are transmitted and received. I talk antennas all the time so I communicate with the tv station call sines and the actual channels. I almost never talk about the programing , thats the realm of Virtual channel numbers and finding out whats on when. When communicating about reception it is best to say as an example , WCJB real channel 16 or WCJB real 16 or WCJB 16 ABC and etc. , that way we can get to receiving the tv stations/channels with little misinformation. Tv antennas that are mounted in the attic will not be contacted by lightning. The main reason for grounding the coax and even the antenna in the attic is to direct interference to ground and have better reception.

[GroundUrMast]

Originally Posted by Electron

... The main reason for grounding the coax and even the antenna in the attic is to direct interference to ground and have better reception.

To be fair, I'm not certain if your statement covers both attic and outdoor installations. Because the OP specifically inquired about outdoor installations, my comments below are predicated on the assumption that your statement is referring to both attic and outdoor situations. Please correct me if my assumption is incorrect.

I firmly believe the main reason for grounding is for protection of people and property regardless of were the antenna is mounted. If there is reduction of interference, I'm very pleased. But interference reduction is of secondary importance to me, and I suspect the OP and others who have had valuable equipment damaged.

As a side bar discussion in a separate thread, I would welcome an explanation of how grounding the coax shield can reduce the amount of on-channel interference received by the antenna which is then coupled to the center conductor and inner shield surface in differential mode (which is what the tuner input is connected to). A correctly installed ground connection that provides a low resistance/impedance path to ground at DC and power-line frequency can not be expected to do the same at VHF and UHF frequencies unless carefully engineered to do so, and then it will only provide a low impedance at one or a few specific VHF or UHF frequencies unless the length or the ground conductor is extremely short, a fraction of a wave-length. The same physics that govern antenna element length design, apply to ground conductors. Inductive reactance, distributed capacitance and resistance all increases with the length of a conductor when the cross section is constant.

[Electron]

Gum how does this technical jabber benefit the question asker. GUM as you have stated more once in the past , a antenna in the attic does not need to be grounded.

[Electron]

Cochlea as I understand it your antennas are in the attic , the landlord prefers that a antenna not be on the roof. If as in IF you put a antenna on the roof the antenna and coax will need to be grounded.

[GroundUrMast]

Originally Posted by Electron

Gum how does this technical jabber benefit the question asker. GUM as you have stated more once in the past , a antenna in the attic does not need to be grounded.

This is not a personal attack, but an attempt to politely discuss and hopefully resolve a technical disagreement. As already stated, I believe grounding the the coax shield and mast provides little if any suppression of interference. Therefor, someone who is not having problems with interference may read such a statement and then incorrectly conclude there is no reason to properly and effectively ground their antenna installation. So to the issue of 'benefit to the OP', given the OP's specific interest in this issue, if one or both of us are wrong, the OP deserves accurate information. Secondarily, both of us can benefit from being challenged to test our knowledge.

On one hand, you correctly caution me against overstating the danger associated with ignorance of grounding. On the other hand, I believe I have a valid concern about understating the value of proper/effective grounding.

I have always held the position that grounding the the antenna system is best practice. In an indoor/attic installation, I believe that connecting the coax shield to the the tuner chassis achieves that purpose minimally. Use of a grounding block or the ground lug on a splitter, connected to the building ground is usually inexpensive in terms of parts and labor, and a far superior form of protection should some unlikely nail be driven through a Romex power cable and coax.