RV Reception in State College, PA

mflynn7 · 30-Sep-2014, 1:55 PM

My first post...

We use our travel trailer several weekends per year while tailgating at football games in State College, PA. We park in the same lot each time.

With our current setup, we are able to receive several TV stations (NBC and various local channels); however, we are not able to get the two that we really want (ABC and FOX).

For the past several years we tried a number of basic solutions...

1) we bought a 'wingman' for our existing Sensar RV antenna (all passive)
2) tried a different antenna (1Byone powered omni-direction antenna) mounted several feet higher than the Sensar
3) researched the location of the station towers to ensure we were pointing the antenna in the right direction (messed with this many, many times)
4) tried several different TVs on each antenna
5) Ruled out obvious issues such as bad cables, etc (Each antenna works fine outside of State College)

Internet research from a knowledgeable person who lives in the area claims a UHF high gain antenna is mandatory - along with a pre-amp. His quote was, "If I can't receive it at my house with a antenna 18 feet off the ground, with a semi clear view of the tower and a Winegard 8200U antenna, then you are not going to receive it with a Wingman type antenna."

Here is the catch....

On a number of occasions, friends of ours parked a few feet from us. They have the same antenna, but a different style RV. They simply ran the co-ax to their TV and viola --- they were getting FOX, ABC and many more. Only difference is their RV has a 'powered antenna'. They said if they don't 'press the antenna power button' inside the RV they get the same basic channels that we do.

If I need high-gain UHF antenna and pre-amp I will accept that. But seeing my friends simply plug in and get more channels suggests to me that I don't need an elaborate setup (not to mention no place to mount that type of antenna)

Based on what I have described, what is my next logical step? Do you think a quality booster would help?

Thanks in advance for your suggestions.

timgr · 30-Sep-2014, 2:32 PM

If you have the same antenna, are you sure it does not include a preamp that requires power? The only reason to send power to an antenna is to power a preamp located close to the antenna. The preamp boosts the signal voltage to overcomes cable losses - it does not improve signal quality. Signal quality depends on the antenna design and antenna placement. A preamp that is not powered acts like an attenuator, not an amplifier, and very much degrades signal quality.

Also, is your TV set to "antenna" and not "cable?" The character of the incoming signal is very different for the two sources, and the TV tuner needs to know what to look for.

Jake V · 30-Sep-2014, 4:56 PM

Follow the instructions in the following post and then post the URL to your TV Fool report:

http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=14508

mflynn7 · 30-Sep-2014, 5:25 PM

Jake, here is the URL: Click Me

I'm going by memory right now, but I know we get the local PBS channels (WPSU) and we do get NBC (WJAC). If I recall correctly we get 6 channels total (NBC being the only decent one).

All we really want is ABC so we can watch the other football games that ABC carries throughout the day. Anything else would be bonus.

A few notes about our location, etc. I chose 12 ft for the antenna. Our travel trailer isn't very big. When we mounted the 'powered' antenna to our flag pole we probably go up to 15 ft. It we be nice if we could avoid mounting the antenna to the flagpole and just use the built-in unit.

Timgr,

I want to say, 'Yes, we always choose antenna on the TV setup'. I know for a fact we did it on at least one of the TVs. But we switched TVs and setups so often...I now wonder... This is something I will definitely verify when i return in 2 weeks.

Also, I don't see anything obvious in the trailer that would power the built-in antenna. In other words, there is just a standard jack for the co-ax. There isn't any switches, buttons or anything. The owner's manual doesn't provide any additional info about the antenna.

Thanks!

timgr · 30-Sep-2014, 8:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mflynn7

Timgr,

I want to say, 'Yes, we always choose antenna on the TV setup'. I know for a fact we did it on at least one of the TVs. But we switched TVs and setups so often...I now wonder... This is something I will definitely verify when i return in 2 weeks.

Also, I don't see anything obvious in the trailer that would power the built-in antenna. In other words, there is just a standard jack for the co-ax. There isn't any switches, buttons or anything. The owner's manual doesn't provide any additional info about the antenna.

Thanks!

The preamp is powered from the coaxial cable. The DC power needed by the preamp can travel along the coaxial cable along with the TV signal. There would be an additional part that you add indoors inline with the TV cable lead-in. This would have a wall transformer that in turn plugs into the new part you added to the lead-in.

So are you using the Sensar, or the 1Byone? The 1Byone says "powered" which implies that it needs a power supply. The Sensar looks like a passive antenna. If your neighbors are using a Sensar with a power supply, it's likely something that they added.

mflynn7 · 1-Oct-2014, 12:06 AM

We have 2 different setups:

1) The 'built-in' (passive) setup which uses the Sensar antenna which is mounted to the top of the RV and wired down to the inside of the RV (where we hook up the TV)

2) The 1ByOne (powered) which we mounted to a flagpole. Coax runs from the antenna --> the powered inline adapter --> tv

We've tried each antenna on 3 different TVs. We've had the same results -- the 6 channels I mentioned previously.

You bring up a good point... I am saying my neighbors have the 'same' antenna, (meaning the passive, Sensar) but I'm basing that on 'looks'. I don't know for certain what type they have. Obviously it is powered so that suggests I am wrong.

timgr · 1-Oct-2014, 10:03 AM

Also realize that surroundings like trees and buildings and any metal objects or structures can and will change the reception environment. Shielding by trees causes a lot of problems apparently.

One test would be to put your rig in the same location as where your neighbors are getting good reception, and see if you get better results. The implication would be clear.

mflynn7 · 1-Oct-2014, 12:16 PM

Yes, the geography in the area presents a challenge. We have to aim the antenna almost directly at the stadium - which is a huge structure. We also have to contend with the Nittany mountains.

We had assumed we wouldn't be able to get ABC due to those factors. But then those around us have no problem getting it. Additionally, the TV Fool map that is linked in this thread (assuming I am reading it correctly) suggests that ABC should be a stronger signal than NBC. We get crystal clear reception with NBC, but ABC doesn't come in at all.

I'm still hoping that an equipment upgrade, such as a quality booster, will solve the issue. In the meantime I need to rule out 'user error' and make sure I have the TV setup correctly.

Jake V · 1-Oct-2014, 12:23 PM

At some point I'd ask one of your neighbors who can receive ABC exactly what model antenna they are using. Then compare it to your model for gain and etc.

Further, if you have an extra length of coax, I'd take it with me and (assuming they are nice neighbors) ask if you can connect their antenna to your TV as a test. [Or, if they are really nice, take a splitter and user their antenna to watch the Penn State game!]

mflynn7 · 1-Oct-2014, 12:36 PM

Jake, As I talk through this with both of you I am realizing I need to do as you both suggest. I need to find out exactly what equipment they have so I can compare it to what I have.

We do bring extra coax and splitters with us. Our neighbors have been quite generous. In fact last week someone just gave us an extra DirectTV box and hooked us up to their dish.

Do you think it would be worth it to buy a booster to hook up to the built-in passive unit? If it doesn't work, I could just return it. If so - any suggestions on model or minimum specs?

tomfoolery · 1-Oct-2014, 1:51 PM

The Sensar was available in both amplified and passive versions. They're up to the Sensar IV now, which is amplified, and includes the UHF kit. May be a dumb question, but how do you know you have the passive version and not the powered, but missing the power injector? If your neighbor has the Sensar IV and it works as you'd like yours to, Winegard also sells just the upgrade head unit and also the power inserter, which totals around half or so of what a complete unit would cost.

But I would start with pulling a coax from your neighbor's antenna to your tv, just to make sure it's the antenna and not your tv. Or move the tv to their RV for the test. Either way (shorter coax is always good, of course).

mflynn7 · 1-Oct-2014, 7:48 PM

Tom, I see Winegard also has the 'Rayzar' now which appears to be an upgrade to their Sensar(?). I'm reviewing the manual now to see if it would be easy to install. They sell a one Rayzar kit that you can simply swap out with your existing Sensar, but you can also buy the full kit with the power supply, etc.

tomfoolery · 1-Oct-2014, 8:12 PM

They don't show gain figures, but the ad copy touts its ability to receive off the back and the front (presumably equally), thereby increasing the number of channels potentially available. The problem with that is that it's bidirectional, like a naked UHF loop or bowtie without reflector, while the Wingman kit increases the gain in the direction it's pointed, and presumably reduces it off the back (you can't get something for nothing in physics). Absent any other info, I'd have to guess the Wingman kit on the Sensar would bring UHF signals in a bit stronger. No saying how much, since they don't publish that, but I think Winegard said something about 100% stronger using the Wingman, which would make it 3dB.

But I still think your best option is to see what your neighbor is using, and give their antenna a try with your tv. It might even be your tv, as all tuners are not the same.

mflynn7 · 2-Oct-2014, 12:35 PM

Tom, I did some reading last night - and based on your comments - I agree. It doesn't seems necessary to switch to that Rayzar given that I already have a Sensar III with the wingman attachment.

I was also able to confirm that I have the passive setup. Looks like I could potentially buy a wallplate. According to the Sensar III manual.

ADDING OPTIONAL AMPLIFIED WALLPLATE TO NON-AMPLIFIED RV/TV INSTALLATION Model RA-7596 solid state TV signal amplifier works with any non-amplified RV/TV antenna. Improves picture quality. Uses +12 VDC; has on/off switch, indicator light, set 2 output, cable input and +12 VDC receptacle.

My plan of action for now is..

1) Try the Sensar setup yet again making sure all connections are sound and the TV is setup correctly
2) assuming #1 doesn't work - Try the Sensar setup adding in powered adapter that comes with my 1byOne omni-directional antenna
3) assuming that doens't work - bypass the built in Sensar entirely and try the 1byOne mounted to the flagpole

If none of those options work - and assuming we are parked near our friends - find out exactly what model/make of their setup (antenna, wall plate, TV, etc) and see how much difference there is in antenna height. If possible, swap TVs and experiment a bit to see if we can figure out the weak link.

This entire thread has been very helpful. I've learned a lot - thanks. I should have inquired about this 3 years ago. I will keep you posted. Next trip is in 3 weeks.

-M. Flynn

tomfoolery · 2-Oct-2014, 3:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mflynn7

I was also able to confirm that I have the passive setup. Looks like I could potentially buy a wallplate. According to the Sensar III manual.

ADDING OPTIONAL AMPLIFIED WALLPLATE TO NON-AMPLIFIED RV/TV INSTALLATION Model RA-7596 solid state TV signal amplifier works with any non-amplified RV/TV antenna. Improves picture quality. Uses +12 VDC; has on/off switch, indicator light, set 2 output, cable input and +12 VDC receptacle.

Looking at that same manual, it appears to be just a preamp. I rather doubt it will do much good if the coax from the preamp to the tv will be short. And it will add its own noise. The purpose of an amp is to increase signal strength to compensate for cable and splitter losses, and putting it right next to the tv may (or may not) actually make things worse, if it's adding noise (it will) to an already noisy but weak signal, making it a stronger but still noisy signal. My FIL has one in his RV (same antenna), and he tells me it doesn't seem to make much difference, and that OTA is not usually usable in the places they stay, so they use a cable tv connection where available. Just a single data point, FWIW.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mflynn7

My plan of action for now is..

1) Try the Sensar setup yet again making sure all connections are sound and the TV is setup correctly That makes a lot of sense. The installation manual calls for terminating the coax at various locations, which increases the chance they're either badly made, or deteriorated from time and weather. In fact, if possible, I'd climb up on top of the RV and try a short, direct RG-6 run (with factory ends) straight to a TV for testing purposes. Put the TV on the roof with you, but don't put the TV too close to the antenna, or sit too close to the antenna for that matter, as your body can effect reception (just like in the old days with analog and rabbit ears).
2) assuming #1 doesn't work - Try the Sensar setup adding in powered adapter that comes with my 1byOne omni-directional antenna If that's a power injector for the 1byONE, it won't do anything with your passive unit.
3) assuming that doens't work - bypass the built in Sensar entirely and try the 1byOne mounted to the flagpole It's free to try, so why not?