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Old 6-May-2012, 4:53 PM   #1
AtLarge
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3 to 9 dead zone?

I'm trying to help my Mother kick the cable habit since she is retired and on a fixed income. I get a weak 2.1, 2.2 but nothing for 7 & 9. It's like a dead zone that is completely gone. Here's the scenario:

Here's the map http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...de6513321a39cb
Zip 52402
Sharp Aquos 42'' 1080p
The big 3 transmit from 21 miles away NW.
The her apartment is on the ground floor, three level condo but in SE corner.
No antenna rule but dish is ok.
Window by the TV faces East and that's my only choice for pulling in the signal.
Multiple cable swaps provided no change.

3 passives and 2 powered antennas including this one are of no use.
http://www.summitsource.com/digiwave...8-p-10106.html

My house is 1.5 blocks away with an attic antenna facing NW and I get them just fine.

How come 2 comes in but not 7 and 9 and how do I get them?
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Old 6-May-2012, 5:16 PM   #2
Electron
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Tv Antennas and Tv Reception

Are there any more windows and if so , what directions are the windows?? Is there a patio?? What is the construction of the building , wood frame with wood or vinyl siding is the best for reception. Metal framing , metal roof , concrete walls , concrete block , cinder block , bricks from ground to roof , metal siding , stucko Wire , will reduce or block reception.

Last edited by Electron; 12-May-2012 at 7:09 AM.
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Old 6-May-2012, 6:48 PM   #3
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It's stick built. No brick or concrete other than the foundation that I am aware of but I don't know that for a fact. Since it's three stories they may have some support walls of blocks for tornado resistance. It also has vinyl siding so I'm sure it has some kind of Tyvek underneath, maybe reflective wrap. Don't know for sure since we weren't around at time of build. It's about 10 years old. It does have a walk out patio and I did actually put the best powered antenna out there just for elimination of another variable. Being in the SE corner though wasn't enough to clear the building. I thought if I worked I could put some RG56 through the wall and try to hide the antenna under the deck above but since it literally had no effect I tossed that idea.

The only other windows are another East & a South in adjoining rooms so it would be an issue to run cable under carpet or whatever. During testing I did try the South window hoping to catch some reflective signals off the condo's across the street. No luck. It's only a 2 bedroom and about 975sq.ft. I know the biggest problem is the East facing and only 5 ft. off the ground. It's very evident by the map because mine compared to it has all the same channels but in the green.
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Old 6-May-2012, 9:24 PM   #4
Electron
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Tv Antennas and Tv Reception

With one of the indoor type antennas out on the patio , should be receiving more channels then one channel. The Tv MUST SCAN for the Digital Broadcast Tv Channels sometimes named the 'Antenna Channels' or 'Air Channels' in the Tv setup menu because the Tv transmissions travel through the air from the transmitting antenna to the receiving antenna. DO NOT scan for cable Tv channels. Also the antenna must be connected to the antenna input connection on the Tv. Also amplified antennas Must be plugged in to work. Here is a Tv antenna that is made to look like a small dish. http://www.antennacraft.net?Antennas...Amplified.html . http://www.antennacraft.net/Manuals/HDX1000_manual.pdf . The antenna should be mounted up as high as possible on the outside of the building to receive the Tv stations to the north/west and south/east. Think about where the Tv stations are at , think in terms of getting the antenna to clear the roof. Here are some places to buy antennas and etc. , http://www.solidsignal.com , http://www.amazon.com . The make of the Tv is Sharp , what is the model number??

Last edited by Electron; 7-May-2012 at 6:14 AM.
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Old 7-May-2012, 7:27 AM   #5
Electron
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Tv Antennas and Tv Reception

If this is a Condo that is being bought or is owned. Then the buyer/owner of the Condo has the right to install and use a antenna mounted above the roof. Here is the Federal Antenna Law that says Yes you can. http://www.fcc.gov/guides/over-air-r...n-devices-rule. The ANT751 or ANT751R will work real fine , aimed at about 145 degree magnetic compass. Here is how to aim antennas , http://www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html. Here are some roof top antenna mounts , http://www.ronard.com/909911.html , http://www.ronard.com/34424560.html , http://www.ronard.com/ychim.html , http://www.ronard.com. Buy the ronard antenna mounts at solidsignal by typing the word ronard in the solidsignal search box or buy from ronard. http://www.solidsignal.com. Does the Condo have a attic??
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Old 8-May-2012, 3:18 PM   #6
AtLarge
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electron View Post
With one of the indoor type antennas out on the patio , should be receiving more channels then one channel. The Tv MUST SCAN for the Digital Broadcast Tv Channels sometimes named the 'Antenna Channels' or 'Air Channels' in the Tv setup menu because the Tv transmissions travel through the air from the transmitting antenna to the receiving antenna. DO NOT scan for cable Tv channels. Also the antenna must be connected to the antenna input connection on the Tv. Also amplified antennas Must be plugged in to work. Here is a Tv antenna that is made to look like a small dish. http://www.antennacraft.net?Antennas...Amplified.html . http://www.antennacraft.net/Manuals/HDX1000_manual.pdf . The antenna should be mounted up as high as possible on the outside of the building to receive the Tv stations to the north/west and south/east. Think about where the Tv stations are at , think in terms of getting the antenna to clear the roof. Here are some places to buy antennas and etc. , http://www.solidsignal.com , http://www.amazon.com . The make of the Tv is Sharp , what is the model number??
Quote:
Originally Posted by Electron View Post
If this is a Condo that is being bought or is owned. Then the buyer/owner of the Condo has the right to install and use a antenna mounted above the roof. Here is the Federal Antenna Law that says Yes you can. http://www.fcc.gov/guides/over-air-r...n-devices-rule. The ANT751 or ANT751R will work real fine , aimed at about 145 degree magnetic compass. Here is how to aim antennas , http://www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html. Here are some roof top antenna mounts , http://www.ronard.com/909911.html , http://www.ronard.com/34424560.html , http://www.ronard.com/ychim.html , http://www.ronard.com. Buy the ronard antenna mounts at solidsignal by typing the word ronard in the solidsignal search box or buy from ronard. http://www.solidsignal.com. Does the Condo have a attic??
Those are some good links. I appreciate it. I'm still trying to get an straight answer from the HOA. They allow dishes so I don't see how they can completely stop antennas. Maybe limit the types. That link on rulings may be a big help. The hardest part might be getting the coax from the attic to the ground floor since it's three floors. I think a total of 12 units in each building.

The TV is a Sharp Aquos LC-42D64U and I did search specifically using the air. I even tried a digital converter box and another TV to verify it wasn't the tuner on the Sharp. They all had the same problem with skipping 7 & 9 which I see now are VHF whereas all the others appear to be UHF? Maybe there is a way to improve VHF alone?

What we need is a way to bend the signals so they can make a right hand turn.
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Old 8-May-2012, 8:28 PM   #7
Electron
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Tv Antennas and Tv Reception

For buyer/owners . The Federal Antenna Law 'clearly states' that any size antenna and mounting location can be used outside so as to receive the Tv transmissions. HOA's , housing coven-nuts and etc. are Well Aware of this Federal Antenna Law. . As to getting the antennas coax to your mothers unit , the coaxes for the satellite systems are most likley on the outside of the building. The coax from the antenna can also be on the outside of the building. If the antenna were placed in the attic then the coax can go through the wall of the attic to the outside , down the outside wall and into your mothers unit. (not through the actual roof , do not drill a hole through the roof and stick the coax through the hole). Also on the outside , look up under the roof over hang on the outside where the roof meets the wall on the outside , all most all buildings have ventalation holes , the coax can go out the ventalation hole to the outside and down the outside wall. Here is something else to consider , many new buildings have metal back insulation panels on the under side of the roof , this metal will reduce or block Tv transmissions. Also so I can be clear in my understanding is this a Condo or is this a Apartment. And if it is a Condo , does your mother or the buyer own all three floors?? Here is something else to understand , apartment renters do not have the same rights as owners and that is clearly stated in the Federal Antenna Law. The Federal Antenna Law Does Not Prohibit the Owner of the apartments from saying Yes you can put a Tv antenna on the roof or outside wall. There is a difference between owner/buyers and renters.

Last edited by Electron; 12-May-2012 at 7:13 AM. Reason: Correct misstatement and make spelling corrections.
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Old 10-May-2012, 12:17 PM   #8
AtLarge
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All good points Electron. I did a little more testing and research. Here's what I found. Our 7 & 9 are definitely on VHF not UHF. Our 2 is actually 51 and is UHF along with all the rest so that explains why I could find it and the others but not 7 & 9. VHF is much more necessary to direct or line of sight reception. (not said well but you know what I mean)

Since my local signals mostly come from the NW but the apartment is on the SE most all the signals are lost to building blockage. I combined two 15' coax cables I had as spares. That allowed me to get a cheap rabbit ear style antenna out past the patio and past the foyer where the front door is just setting it on the ground. TA DA! Channels! All 25 of them! Good, strong quality too!

I did some snooping around the building too. It's a 12 unit condo (like apartments) four units per floor and 3 floors. I could run a wire up the vinyl corner molding to the soffit and then into the attic to an antenna. Like a did with my house. However, I found in the utilitiy rooms on each floor there is an unused pipe stub. I'm sure the builder put it there specifically for running extra wire like antenna from floor to floor. The only downside is I couldn't find the attic access so it must be through one of the apartments.

I've tried contacting the HOA manager but hasn't returned my call yet. I don't know what they're position is yet but I wouldn't be surprised if they stone wall. If so, I'll start enlisting the help of other residents and we'll go from there. I'm glad to read there is support from other cases.

Thanks again for all your help!
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Old 10-May-2012, 12:36 PM   #9
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Do they allow dishes on the roof? If so look at the DTV-TRP75 at www.tripleplayantenna.com It is 10.5 X 12 inches and flat. It can be configured for directional or bi-directional for reception from the Southeast and Northwest.

Last edited by signals unlimited; 10-May-2012 at 12:40 PM.
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Old 10-May-2012, 6:49 PM   #10
Electron
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Tv Antennas and Tv Reception

I found a misstatement and corrected it to say , The Federal Antenna Law Does Not Prohibit the owner of the apartments from saying Yes you can put a Tv antenna on the roof or outside wall. Here is a antenna the can receive Ok. It is a omnidirectional. Omnidirectional is good because receives all directions. And not so good because receives all directions , signal reflections (multipath) off of other buildings and trees and etc. can disrupt reception. Omnidirectional antennas work most of the time but not all of the time. The only way to find out is to mount a omnidirectional directional antenna as much as possible clear of obstructions , like get the omnidirectional antenna above the roof. Thats true of any type and kind of Tv antenna. Tv antennas like elbow room , nothing crowding in to upset reception. Channel Master CM2002 Metrostar omnidirectional antenna. http://www.channelmasterstore.com .

Last edited by Electron; 11-May-2012 at 2:29 PM.
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Old 10-May-2012, 8:02 PM   #11
Dave Loudin
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All good points Electron. I did a little more testing and research. Here's what I found. Our 7 & 9 are definitely on VHF not UHF. Our 2 is actually 51 and is UHF along with all the rest so that explains why I could find it and the others but not 7 & 9. VHF is much more necessary to direct or line of sight reception. (not said well but you know what I mean)
Sigh. You had all this information before you in your TVFool report. Please read the Signal Analysis FAQ to learn more. Also, UHF is more line-of-sight than VHF. However, VHF signals, especially at the powers used by many stations, have a harder time getting through buildings than UHF.
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Old 10-May-2012, 8:54 PM   #12
Electron
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Tv Antennas and Tv Reception

You are reading and understanding that is good. Yes I do know what you mean , the VHF high band channels of 7 thru 13 are disturbed more by multipath then UHF channels. And channels 7 and 9 are disturbed more then the outer Vhf high band channels. There are other reasons such as out of band harmonics from other transmitters frequencies that fall with in Tv channels 7 and 9. And yes a directional antenna can help by reducing the reception of other directions.

Last edited by Electron; 11-May-2012 at 1:22 AM.
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Old 11-May-2012, 8:55 AM   #13
signals unlimited
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7 and 9 are often blown out by nearby FM stations. You should try an FM trap. #33-341 from Cumberland Electronics. www.cceparts.com or 888-501-9658. Install anywhere between your antenna and your DTV set/sets.
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Old 11-May-2012, 4:23 PM   #14
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Local radio Shacks now offer an FM Filter, Catalog # 15-0024. Retail price is around $7-8. Convenient to most locations but more expensive.
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For support and recommendations regarding our products, please contact us directly at https://www.antennasdirect.com/customer-service.html

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Old 11-May-2012, 5:46 PM   #15
AtLarge
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Originally Posted by Dave Loudin View Post
Sigh. You had all this information before you in your TVFool report. Please read the Signal Analysis FAQ to learn more. Also, UHF is more line-of-sight than VHF. However, VHF signals, especially at the powers used by many stations, have a harder time getting through buildings than UHF.
True but reading AND comprehension are two different things. Sometimes I even have to read the same thing more than twice.

Here's the better news. I spoke to the Condo builder. He confirmed that is what the pipe stubs were intended for. I spoke to the our city building inspector and there are no guidelines or restrictions for coax so no permits or inspections necessary. I spoke to the HOA president and he is supportive and might even want to get in on this as well. I'll be bringing it up at the next HOA meeting to gauge "reception" at the homeowner level. I may be doing this for more than just my mother.
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Old 11-May-2012, 7:52 PM   #16
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Sorry, forgot to mention... A big thank you to everyone that responded. Your excellent comments, suggestions and links for future reference have given me a lot to think about. You guys and this site are great!
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Old 12-May-2012, 11:20 PM   #17
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Tv Antennas and Tv Reception

Excellent . After your mother is receiving Digital Broadcast Television. Have a yard/patio sale and open house so every one can come and check out Digital Broadcast Tv Reception.
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Old 13-May-2012, 1:52 AM   #18
AtLarge
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Excellent . After your mother is receiving Digital Broadcast Television. Have a yard/patio sale and open house so every one can come and check out Digital Broadcast Tv Reception.
That's actually a fantastic idea! Great way to meet the neighbors too.
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Old 13-May-2012, 2:50 PM   #19
ant
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That's actually a fantastic idea! Great way to meet the neighbors too.
Then they will all want to cut their TV services and do OTA too. [grin]
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