Seeking Equipment Recommendation

[tsiyon]

Thank you in advance. I am new to this and I hope I've researched enough not to sound like a fool...

Here is my TVFool coverage map: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...d5bcbb68507094

It seems to be a fairly straightforward situation. However, while my immediate goal is to get the Milwaukee stations, my secondary goal would be to get my geek on and try for the Chicago and Madison stations - if for no other reason than to say I can do it!

Other info:
* 1 Toshiba 37HL67 TV, which has ATSC and QAM tuners
* 1 Pioneer Elite PRO-507PU TV, which I have been unable to find information on (no manual)
* DirectTV mast ~10' off the ground with ~50-60' run to distribution point
* DirectTV dish secured with a J mount
* Attic area ~20' off the ground with ~30-40' run to distribution point
* 1 PCT International PCT-MA-B1010-IP multimedia drop amplifier (installed by cable provider - not currently in use)
* 1 SWiM MSPLIT4R1-03 4-way splitter (installed by DirectTV - in use)
* LOS from DirectTV dish location to NE is blocked by the roofline - would need to extend mast ~10' (total height ~20')
* Tri-level house - primary TV (Pioneer) is located on a level of the house that is 1/2 underground
* Expense is not a hinderance (within reason), considering I'm paying $100/mo for DirectTV right now - I'm all about ROI
* Attic space allows for ~30" height and ~45" turning radius from the center point, although the height tapers off starting ~24" from center
* I am fairly technically adept and mechanically inclined (Electrical Engineer turned Software Programmer turned Project Manager - would love to do something hands-on again for a change)

Questions:
* Antenna recommendations for Milwaukee stations? Due to proximity and signal strength of the MKE stations, would something like the Winegard Metrostar series mounted in the attic be suitable?
* For the Madison and Chicago stations, I'm guessing something like the Windgard 769x series mounted 20' plus high would be required. Is that correct?
* If I get the larger antenna, will it be too big to receive the closer/stronger singals? Would it be able to catch them off the side?
* Can I safely extend the height of the dish J mount?
* My distribution point is located close to my electrical panel. Can the antenna coax be grounded at the end of the run (near the distribution point), or should it be done closer to the antenna?
* A rotor will be necessary if I get a single antenna and want to try for the more distant signals, correct?
* Distribution recommendations? Are either of the ones worth keeping?
* Pre-amp recommendations?
* Set-top tuner recommendations? Or, does anyone happen to know if the Pioneer model I have has a digital tuner?

Any information you guys can provide would be greatly appreciated! Thanks again.

[signals unlimited]

Due to the fact that you nave two catagories of signal strengths to deal with (LOS and 2edge), You should consider two seperate systems. For the stations at 60 degrees magnetic I recomend an RCA ANT 751, no amplifier (it would over power your receivers).
For your mount, up to you. Just choose something that will suit your situation and aim to 60 degrees magnetic. I would not use the cable mulit-media splitter or the satellite splitter. Just use a simple two set coupler 50 to 1000 mhz and run new coax, or tie into your existing coax to feed your sets. If any of your runs are near the service panel, that should be a good ground point. A secondary grounding with a ground fault power strip at the sets will give you good back-up protection.

This system (even rotating) will do nothing for the stations at 161, 229, ane 273 magnetic. A seperate antenna on the roof would be required, and since these stations are 2 edge you need a large high VHF/UHF combination antenna, a High gain UHF/VHF pre-amplifier and a rotor. If you realy want to go forward with that, I will do some research and make a recomendation in a seperate post. At that time we can try to figure out where to place the A/B switch for selecting between the two systems.

As for the set in doubt. If it is newer than 2006 it should be ok. Also does it say DTV anywhere on the set? is there a dot on a button on the remote? Also in your set-up menu you will see some indication if it is digital. If not there are many ATSC tuners, even with DVR built in. Research and choose one that is well reviewed and fits your needs.

Sorry to be so vague on the large antenna system. I just wanted to let you know what you are getting into, so you can figure out the investment/return ratio before we start choosing exact equipment.

[tsiyon]

thanks, signals unlimited. The RCA looks like it would fit nicely in the attic. I'll research that further.

np regarding the other antenna. You confirmed what I suspected - that it would be much more involved. I'm getting married June 8th, so I have no problem delaying the 2nd system until later. I'll work on getting the closer channels with the smaller, fixed antenna first and see how it goes.

The TV is ~2008. However, I was considering getting a DVR to replace the one from DirectTV, so I may just get a separate tuner/DVR regardless of what the TV has.

[Electron]

I will return with antenna and etc recommendations.

[GroundUrMast]

The Madison signals are going to be easy. It's not certain, but WWAZ may come on the air on real channel 5 at some point. An all channel antenna would be a more future proof option. If they will fit in your attic, consider Antennacraft 5884, C290 or even C490. From Channel Master, CM3016 and CM3018.

Metal and tile on the roof as well as wet or deep snow will make the attic a problematic antenna location.

Out of market signals from Chicago might be reachable with a mast or tower. You'll want to run one or more new TVFRs using higher mounting height to see if signal conditions improve enough. The numbers shown in your 15' AGL report don't suggest you could see Chicago at that height, definitely not from the attic.

[Electron]

For reception of the Milwaukee Tv stations to the north/east at about 68 degree magnetic compass , install a Winegard HD7080P All channel antenna in the attic or above the roof. Here is how to aim antennas , http://www.keys.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html. (All the Tv channels are VHF low band channels 2 thru 6 , VHF high band channels 7 thru 13 , UHF channels 14 thru 69.) Currently there is channel 5 that is silent and may return to the air in the future , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWAZ-TV. The HD7080P antenna is a Heavy Duty long lasting antenna with a built in removable transformaer (balun) coax connector.

[Electron]

As a test and for the reception of the other Tv stations/channels at about , 164 , 232 , 276 , degrees magnetic compass. Install a Winegard HD8200U antenna Without a preamp at first and can add a Antennas Direct CPA-19 preamp as part of the experiment of reception. The HD8200U antenna will be mounted above the roof on a Separate mount from the HD7080P antenna. As part of the experiment the HD8200U can be a few feet or higher above the roof mounted on a Strong And Sturdy antenna mount such as these , http://www.ronard.com/909911.html , http://www.ronard.com/Tripods%200703/4712.html , http://www.ronard.com/engineered-rot...ount-3324.html , http://www.ronard.com . Buy the ronard antenna mounts at solidsignal by typing the word ronard in the soildsignal search box or buy from ronard. Here are places to buy antennas and etc. , http://www.solidsignal.com , http://www.winegarddirect.com , http://www.antennasdirect.com , http://www.amazon.com. I will return with more information shortly.

[Electron]

You can turn the HD8200U by hand or can or use a rotor , RCA VH126N rotor . There is also the Eagle Aspen rotor ROTR100 , (if you use the ROTR100 then install solid copper center wire quad shield coax between the inside power unit and outside rotor for maximum power transfer and stable operation) The Channel Master CM9521A rotor is out stock at Channel Master due to Quality control problems. I do not recommend the channel master rotor of old stock some where else. None of the general consumer antenna rotors are rated to handle this big antenna over a long period time. There are Ham radio antenna rotors that will easly handle the HD8200U antenna. However the cost is More and None of the Ham radio rotors have remote control that I know of. You can do research and ask questions at the Ham radio and Ham rotor web sites. The rotors are rated by , weight , size and wind load of the antenna. I will return with some makes and model numbers.

[tsiyon]

Thank you all for this awesome info. I'm going to have to dig into this a bit more. All of the larger antennas mentioned I think are too big to fit in the attic, particularly if I want to rotate it. I need to look into tower & mast options before I can head in that direction.

In the short term, I will put up a smaller directional antenna to get the local channels so I can cancel DirectTV. I will let you all know what I go with and what the results are.

[Electron]

The HD7080P is a smaller directional antenna and requires no rotor for reception of the Tv stations/channels to the north/east. Milwaukee

[signals unlimited]

The first system with the ANT751 will work very well in the attic provided your roof is not metal or tile, as pointed out by Groundurmast.

[GroundUrMast]

Originally Posted by tsiyon

Thank you all for this awesome info. I'm going to have to dig into this a bit more. All of the larger antennas mentioned I think are too big to fit in the attic, particularly if I want to rotate it. I need to look into tower & mast options before I can head in that direction.

In the short term, I will put up a smaller directional antenna to get the local channels so I can cancel DirectTV. I will let you all know what I go with and what the results are.

If rotate means 'adjust the aim during the installation process, that's a valid concern. If you're thinking of a rotator unit, your TV Fool report indicates there is no hope of receiving the distant Chicago or Madison signals with any size antenna inside the attic. A rotator in the attic would be of no benefit.

But you'll enjoy very good reception of the local signals.

[Electron]

The HD7080P , 5884 , C290 , C490 , CM3016 , CM3018 antennas are designed to receive Channel 5. The ANT751 is NOT designed to receive channel 5. The ANT751 is $49.99 and the HD7080P is $58.99 at solidsignal. The 5884 is $30.99 , C290 is $39.99 , C490 $82.99 , CM3016 is $52.99 , CM3018 $75.99 .

[Electron]

Here is a question and answer at the Winegard forum that answers the question about wind load of the HD8200U antenna , http://www.winegard.com/phpbb3/viewt...hp?f=10&t=1031. Norms Rotor Service has 10 square feet wind load rated rotors. http://www.rotorservice.com

[Electron]

There are antenna installers and advisors and sellers that have a negative bias concerning VHF low band channels 2 thru 6. Here are the reasons why , channels 2 thru 6 are effected more by impulse noise , natural noise generated by the planet such as lightning and human made electric and electronic noise that can disrupt reception (pixelation and signal drop outs) of the 2 thru 6 digital tv channels. And more important then reception issue is the on going battle , The FCC Federal Communications Commission and the Internationl and local cell phone and wireless broadband companies and corporations have their eyes on UHF television spectrum of channels 14 thru 69. They are doing every thing they can to get this UHF spectrum , every trick , every lie , every honest maneuver , to buy or steal any or all of the UHF Tv spectrum. Because the UHF Tv spectrum permits smaller antennas and is not so effected by impules noise. And push the traditional free Tv broadcast stations in to the VHF low band and make them stay there. There is high stakes game being played behind the scenes. Some antenna installers and advisors and sellers are pushing back in there own way by not telling and hiding the fact that there Tv stations that are transmitting on VHF low band channels 2 thru 6.

[Electron]

There is a VHF low band channel that is transmitting on VHF low band digital channel 4 , WOCK-CD 4. http://www.americaone.com , at 164 degree magnetic compass. If you decide to ahead with the , get your geek on and receive the long distance Tv stations just to say you did it , I am Very Much interested in reports of the reception of digital channel 4. Signal strength as shown if the Tv has a signal strength meter , is the signal steady or does it go up and down?? Any pixalation or drop out??

[GroundUrMast]

As to the politics and economics of powerful forces vying for RF spectrum; If I bought 100,000 all-channel antennas those forces would not notice and would certainly not give up their desire to force broadcast television out of RF spectrum currently assigned. Writing elected representatives and politely expressing my desire that broadcast television be protected as well as helping people obtain reliable OTA reception seem like more reasonable steps to take.

Negative bias toward low VHF reception may exist, but I've not observed it here at TV Fool. What I have seen is a reasonable range of opinion regarding just how much noise margin needs to be engineered into an antenna system in order to provide reliable reception of low-VHF signals.

In this specific case; If WWAZ transmits a signal at the level indicated in the OP's TV Fool report, there should be no problem with reliable reception using a very modest size all channel antenna. Even a properly adjusted rabbit-ear style indoor antenna should be successful.

On the other hand, while the Winegard HD8200U is a powerful deep-fringe antenna, well suited to DX applications, I believe the NM figure listed for WOCK-CD, real channel 4 makes it unreasonable to expect reliable reception of that particular Chicago signal. The listed NM figure for WOCK-CD is -7.6 dB. The published gain of the HD8200U on channel 4 is 6.7 dBd.

My personal goal is to engineer 10 to 15 dB fade margin into a system that is expected to be reliable by consumer standards. So far the math is, -7.6 + 6.7 = -0.9 dB NM which indicates that even if there were no additional noise to account for, the signal is far below the threshold of reliable reception.

When dealing with the additional noise common to the low-VHF band, I believe an optimistic estimate must begin at 13 dB and and an estimate of 20 dB is not unreasonable. So when I apply the minimum fade margin and minimum additional noise factor for the low-VHF band, the net NM value becomes -0.9 - 10 - 13 = -23.9 dB net NM at the HD8200U output connector/terminal.

I think it's irresponsible and detrimental to the reputation of OTA to suggest that some one go out and spend a large sum of money based on a false promise of reliable reception when such reception is so obviously impossible.

[Electron]

This is a case of getting the geek on , and going after the signals to say I did it.! At http://www.solidsignal.com , The HD8200U that has low band reception is $110.99 , The HD7698P that does not have low band reception is $110.99. There are no false promises here , every thing is on the straight up and up. I tracked down the Ham rotors that will handle the HD8200U and the HD7698P and the rotors with proof , not just my say so.

[tsiyon]

Guys - I am truly grateful. I will research all the options each of you has provided regarding the longer range antenna. I will certainly have more questions before I buy anything.

For now, it is apparent that I will need a mast or tower, so I want to focus on that first, as my soon-to-be wife will need some convincin'! Here are the reports for different heights. How high do I need to go? Other than WWRS, there doesn't seem to be significant gain between 40 & 50 ft. Well - it's ~2dB of NM for the Madison stations & a little less for the Chicago ones. I should let you guys tell me whether or not that is significant. Plus, 50 ft. seems a little extreme...

If I'm interpreting the antenna info correctly, these larger antennas can acheive ~10dB gain on channels 7+, sometimes more? If that is the case, perhaps 30-35' is sufficient?

30 ft: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...d5bc77fd7978dc
40 ft: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...d5bc93cd7f5f88
50 ft: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...d5bcdbc13677df

I have 3 options:
1) a ground-based tower - seems that Rohn is the standard there, but very expensive
2) tower on top of a detached (separte from house) garage - peak is ~15' off the ground - would be a long run back to the house (~50' underground conduit for network runs already in place + height of antenna). I think I would need an amp in the garage to boost the signal over the run to the house?
3) tower at peak of main house - peak is ~20-25' off the ground - not sure my wife-to-be is going to go for this, as it would certainly be "noticable" to put it mildly. However, this would result in the highest antenna height/shortest tower build out combo and shortest run to my distribution point.

P.S. This is all part of the longer-range plan. I am still planning to install one of the medium-range antennas in the attic for the local channels.

Thank you! This stuff is really cool!

[GroundUrMast]

To be clear, your opportunity to receive local stations reliably is excellent.

I hope your wife will 'buy-into' the idea of a tower. Clearly, as you go higher, the conditions for both Madison and Chicago signals improve, enough that some UHF signal may be reliable. You'll still be faced with low signal levels, co-channel and adjacent-channel interference and multipath interference. The primary means to overcome those obstacles is antenna gain, directivity and height. In your case... height buys as much or more than any other single factor.