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Old 13-Jan-2016, 12:26 AM   #1
antman
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Live about 45 miles outside NYC on Long Island

Hi Guys-

Another cord cutter here trying to find a good antenna for my house! I live in Hauppauge in New York (on Long Island) about 45 miles from NYC as the crow flies.

Some details on the house-
The antenna will be approximately 20 feet from the first of 2 tvs. Add another 15 feet to the second tv.


Here is a link for my tv signal analysis results-

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...5134e004d69ad0

I live in a bit of a dip with trees and houses above me on a hill towards NYC where most of the signals emanate from. My neighbor has good reception on most channels except for NBC and he is further down the hill from me. I would like to get NBC so I am willing to be creative in my setup.

I am thinking something like the following might work for me:

1) Winegard HD7698P Platinum HD Series Antenna or something like it. I do like the concept of the Dennisí double stacker antenna (http://dennysantennaservice.com/hd_s...enna-html.html) but I have been unable to contact the store either by phone or email.) Would love to use something like the outdoor flatwave antenna (http://www.winegard.com/hdtv-outdoor-antennas?q=offair)
instead of these big guys but Iím not sure how they would work in my situation. I could probably mount the flatwave higher since it has a smaller profile and that might help as well.

2) Some sort of pre amplifier like the Winegard LNA-200 Boost XT Digital HDTV Preamplifier

3) Some sort of rotator system.

Thanks for your help!

Steve
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Old 13-Jan-2016, 12:42 AM   #2
Tim
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Do you know any details about your neighbor's setup? Model of antenna(s), preamp, height of antenna, etc?
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Old 13-Jan-2016, 1:26 AM   #3
antman
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He doesn't know. I had a look and it looks similar to the Winegrad. The preamp is on the mast and it has the same shape as the LNA-200. I would say it's about 22 feet off the ground.

Because I'm up the hill a bit, my antenna should be a good 10' higher.

Last edited by antman; 13-Jan-2016 at 1:34 AM.
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Old 13-Jan-2016, 2:04 AM   #4
shoman94
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If you want a smaller antenna, I'd have a look at the CS4V that includes the VHF antenna. Point it a approx. 260 degrees. That should give you Fox,NBC,CBS and ABC. CBS at 73 degrees and the other stations in that direction should be plenty strong enough to be picked up on the back side. I'm not sure you'll need a pre-amp. That will be trial and error.... maybe a powered splitter will be better. I haven't look at local FM towers in your area but you may need an FM filter.

I'm using this antenna to pick up a station with 2edge, 49miles away and an NM of 0.4...I'm getting a solid 60+% signal with it. I think this antenna needs more credit than its normally given.

Last edited by shoman94; 13-Jan-2016 at 3:07 PM.
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Old 13-Jan-2016, 1:41 PM   #5
rickbb
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I'd look at a DB8e, remove the reflector and point it at the 45 degree true direction or so.

The reason I'd do this is without the reflector it will pick up stations from both the back and front. By pointing it at about 45 you're splitting the difference between 2 of the tower directions.

Mount this on the roof as high as you can to maximize your reception. Bow tie style antennas have a lower wind load than a large Yagi so it makes it easier to go higher.

This would only get UHF channels, and you have 2 VHF so you would need to add a VHF only antenna and use a joiner to combine them.

If you use a rotator with 2 TV's and you watch both at the same time, who is going to decide which direction to point it?

I think any kind of amp would overload your tuners as you have some close and strong signals.
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Old 13-Jan-2016, 2:55 PM   #6
ADTech
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Quote:
I'd look at a DB8e, remove the reflector and point it at the 45 degree true direction or so.
Um, not this time. Go back and notice that his primary goal is NYC, not CT and eastern Long Island. Besides, that arrangement would have too narrow of a beamwidth anyway.

Frankly, the most effective solution would be to go with the large high-V/UHF combo or paired UHF antenna with a separate high-VHF antenna with a suitable preamp and a rotor. If he went with the separates, only the UHF antenna would need to be on the rotor and, chances are, a good number of the nearby UHF stations are going to come in off the back anyway when aimed at NYC.
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Old 13-Jan-2016, 6:05 PM   #7
antman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADTech View Post
Um, not this time. Go back and notice that his primary goal is NYC, not CT and eastern Long Island. Besides, that arrangement would have too narrow of a beamwidth anyway.

Frankly, the most effective solution would be to go with the large high-V/UHF combo or paired UHF antenna with a separate high-VHF antenna with a suitable preamp and a rotor. If he went with the separates, only the UHF antenna would need to be on the rotor and, chances are, a good number of the nearby UHF stations are going to come in off the back anyway when aimed at NYC.

Opinions on the highest quality, larger high_v/UHF antenna? I'm looking at the HD7698P Platinum HD Series Antenna. Would this suit my purposes are there any better options.

I am looking at the Channel Master 9521a Rototator. Does anybody have any experience with this roto in terms of longevity, etc.?
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Old 13-Jan-2016, 8:20 PM   #8
rabbit73
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Quote:
Opinions on the highest quality, larger high_v/UHF antenna? I'm looking at the HD7698P Platinum HD Series Antenna. Would this suit my purposes are there any better options.
The 7698 is about the best available now if you can do without WJLP Me-TV. The alternative that ADTech mentioned would be separate VHF and UHF antennas.
Quote:
I am looking at the Channel Master 9521a Rototator. Does anybody have any experience with this roto in terms of longevity, etc.?
The 9521 is popular, but it is considered light duty. If you are only going to use it for initial aim for NYC and leave it there, it would probably do the job. If you are going to rotate the antenna a lot, you will need a ham rotator, but they are more expensive.

If you have a rotator, your TV must be able to add a channel after scan, or you will need to rescan after changing direction. If there is more than one TV, who gets to decide the antenna direction?

Try the antenna without a preamp first. If Fox and NBC are a problem, consider the Juice preamp from Antennas Direct because it is resistant to overload.
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Last edited by rabbit73; 13-Jan-2016 at 8:24 PM.
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Old 13-Jan-2016, 10:33 PM   #9
antman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
The 7698 is about the best available now if you can do without WJLP Me-TV. The alternative that ADTech mentioned would be separate VHF and UHF antennas.
The 9521 is popular, but it is considered light duty. If you are only going to use it for initial aim for NYC and leave it there, it would probably do the job. If you are going to rotate the antenna a lot, you will need a ham rotator, but they are more expensive.

If you have a rotator, your TV must be able to add a channel after scan, or you will need to rescan after changing direction. If there is more than one TV, who gets to decide the antenna direction?

Try the antenna without a preamp first. If Fox and NBC are a problem, consider the Juice preamp from Antennas Direct because it is resistant to overload.
Thanks Rabbit!
Would there be a way for me to avoid getting a roto all together if I used separate antennas aimed in different locations. If yes, what would you recommend?
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Old 14-Jan-2016, 12:56 AM   #10
rabbit73
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There are ways of doing it depending upon what other channels you want. WLIW already gives you Create with PBS. What other direction besides NYC has something special that you want?
http://www.rabbitears.info/search.ph...pe=dBm&height=
click on a callsign to see the network

Keep it simple for greater reliability and ease of use.

If the antenna is outside, the coax shield should be grounded with a grounding block that is connected to the house electrical system ground with 10 gauge copper wire for electrical safety and to reject interference. For further compliance with the electrical code (NEC), the mast should also be grounded in a similar manner to drain any buildup of static charge, but the system will not survive a direct strike.
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Last edited by rabbit73; 14-Jan-2016 at 1:05 AM.
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Old 14-Jan-2016, 7:09 PM   #11
antman
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Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
There are ways of doing it depending upon what other channels you want. WLIW already gives you Create with PBS. What other direction besides NYC has something special that you want?
http://www.rabbitears.info/search.ph...pe=dBm&height=
click on a callsign to see the network

Keep it simple for greater reliability and ease of use.

If the antenna is outside, the coax shield should be grounded with a grounding block that is connected to the house electrical system ground with 10 gauge copper wire for electrical safety and to reject interference. For further compliance with the electrical code (NEC), the mast should also be grounded in a similar manner to drain any buildup of static charge, but the system will not survive a direct strike.
Yes, I will be putting the antenna outside using a chimney mount.

Rabbitears.com is a cool site. Thanks for that. I put the results from the search in a spreadsheet and see that everything I need/want is at 263 degrees. I'm primarily after the big New York stations- wcbs, wnbc, wnyw, wabc, wwor, wpix, wnet. I see there are also some additional ones at 263 degrees also.

A couple of things-
1) My neighbor is having trouble with WNBC (channel 4‑1 (28)) I'm hoping to be able to do something that will enable me to receive this channel.
2) If I have the HD7698P antenna pointed at 263 degrees would I have to change direction to view stations that go to down 260 degrees and up to 270 degrees. Some of these stations might be worth watching. I would love to set and forget the antenna direction if possible (and save on the purchase of a rotator).
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Old 14-Jan-2016, 7:53 PM   #12
Tim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antman View Post
A couple of things-
1) My neighbor is having trouble with WNBC (channel 4‑1 (28)) I'm hoping to be able to do something that will enable me to receive this channel.
2) If I have the HD7698P antenna pointed at 263 degrees would I have to change direction to view stations that go to down 260 degrees and up to 270 degrees. Some of these stations might be worth watching. I would love to set and forget the antenna direction if possible (and save on the purchase of a rotator).
From your comments, it appears that the weakest station you really want to receive is WNBC with an NM of 8.9...plus it is a 2 edge signal (as are many of your other stations).

To have the best possible chance of receiving WNBC, I would suggest going with a DB8e UHF antenna--the extra 1 or 2 dB extra gain as compared to the Winegard 7698 might make all the difference in the world for reliable reception of WNBC. Couple that to a separate VHF-Hi antenna such as the Stellar Labs 8 or 12 element version using a UVSJ combiner.

Aim the DB8e at WNBC and then tweak it back and forth a bit to get your best signal on WNBC. The rest of your UHF stations in that 259 to 264 degree arc that are stronger than WNBC should not be a problem...the bandwidth of the antenna ranges from 17 to 24 degrees depending on the frequency.
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Old 14-Jan-2016, 7:58 PM   #13
rabbit73
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Quote:
My neighbor is having trouble with WNBC (channel 4‑1 (28)) I'm hoping to be able to do something that will enable me to receive this channel.
That is an important channel, but one of your weaker ones. You need to adjust the antenna aim to favor it.
Quote:
2) If I have the HD7698P antenna pointed at 263 degrees would I have to change direction to view stations that go to down 260 degrees and up to 270 degrees.
I doubt it; the beamwidth is narrow because of the high gain, but not that narrow. Take a look at the beamwidths here:
http://www.winegard.com/kbase/uploads/HD7698P.pdf

Keep in mind that the tvfool report is only a computer simulation, and is known to be less accurate for 2Edge signals.
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Last edited by rabbit73; 14-Jan-2016 at 8:02 PM.
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Old 17-Jan-2016, 9:56 PM   #14
antman
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Thanks to all for the input!

Here is where I am heading based on input and additional research.

Main antenna- CM4228HD
I researched the DB8e, DB8 and the HDB8X.
1) I choose the CM4228HD because it seems that this antenna higher gain than the others up to about channel 35-37 UHF by a good margin. (3-5db). Most of my UHF channels are within this 14 and 40 range.
http://www.antennahacks.com/Comparis...228_vs_DB8.htm
http://antennahacks.com/Comparisons/..._CM4228Old.htm
http://antennahacks.com/Comparisons/..._vs_HD8800.htm

2) It also picks up some of the VHF (high) channels better than the others so I’m hoping it will be good enough to not have to use a separate VHF antenna. I have some high vhf channels to get. If I don’t have success with the CM4228HD in picking up these VHF channels, I will pick up this- http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/30-2476

http://www.antennahacks.com/Comparis...F_Shootout.htm

I intend on trying in my attic first to see what happens! (asphalt shingle roof)

Does this sound reasonable?
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Old 31-Jan-2016, 10:28 PM   #15
antman
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Got a great day today so went up on my roof and installed the CM4228HD. What a great antenna. I am getting most of my channels except NBC, New York and PIX, New York. ABC (hi-v) comes in with a booing signal. These New York stations are at 263 degrees.

What surprised me is that I am picking up New Haven Channels as well and some of these stations are over 60 miles away. I am picking up NBC (WVIT) at compass heading 19 degrees. I can get PIX on that direction too.

Soooo, the combination of 263 degrees and 19 degrees pretty much gets me everything I need/want. I tried aiming the antenna somewhat in the middle but it didn't work well. Here is my dilemma- I really don't want to get a rotator.

I would like to stack 2- CM4228 with one pointing to 263 degrees and one pointing to 19 degrees. Would this work? How would I join the 2 signals?
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Old 31-Jan-2016, 11:41 PM   #16
rabbit73
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You can aim one at 263 and one at 19, but combining them is a problem.

If you use a splitter in reverse as a combiner, that usually doesn't work well because when the same signals from each antenna reach the combining point, they will interfere with each other if they are not in phase. You are welcome to try it, but you probably will not be happy with the results. When it doesn't work, some channels are missing.

You could have the 263 antenna connected to TV 1 and have the 19 antenna connected to TV 2.

You could have a splitter from each antenna and an A/B switch for each TV to select which antenna is needed. Each TV would need to be able to add a channel after scan or you would need to rescan after each change of direction.

You could connect one antenna to the TV antenna input, and connect the other antenna to a separate tuner with its output going to the aux input of the TV.

An Alternative to Rotators and Antenna Combiners
http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=820
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Last edited by rabbit73; 1-Feb-2016 at 12:01 AM.
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Old 2-Feb-2016, 8:14 PM   #17
antman
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Thanks Rabbit73!
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Old 20-Feb-2016, 4:40 PM   #18
antman
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Soo....

I have the cm4228hd and the stellar labs deep fringe yagi(12 element) hooked up on the same mast about 2 feet apart. Both antennas are being fed through the a combiner (UHF - VHF Antenna Combiner By Stellar Labs (33-2230) then through the a preamplifier (Winegard LNA-200 Boost XT). The picture on the uff channels are worse since I put up the vhf antenna. Very frustrating!! Any thoughts about if I am messing up somewhere?
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Old 20-Feb-2016, 5:14 PM   #19
Tim
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Don't get frustrated...it sometimes takes a bit of experimentation to work things out in a signal situation such as yours.
1. I would recommend a 4 ft spacing between antennas to prevent coupling
2. The Stellar Labs 33-2230 combiner specs show an insertion loss of 3.5 dB, while others such as the Pico Macom UVSJ specs show an insertion loss of only 0.5 dB and the Holland UVSJ as loss of 0.7 dB.
3. Did you need the preamp to receive your UHF stations?
4. Try just the UHF antenna with and without preamp and see what results you get
5. Try just the VHF antenna with and without preamp and see what results you get
The answers to points 3, 4 & 5 will help determine what is happening with your installation.
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Old 20-Feb-2016, 11:02 PM   #20
antman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim View Post
Don't get frustrated...it sometimes takes a bit of experimentation to work things out in a signal situation such as yours.
1. I would recommend a 4 ft spacing between antennas to prevent coupling
2. The Stellar Labs 33-2230 combiner specs show an insertion loss of 3.5 dB, while others such as the Pico Macom UVSJ specs show an insertion loss of only 0.5 dB and the Holland UVSJ as loss of 0.7 dB.
3. Did you need the preamp to receive your UHF stations?
4. Try just the UHF antenna with and without preamp and see what results you get
5. Try just the VHF antenna with and without preamp and see what results you get
The answers to points 3, 4 & 5 will help determine what is happening with your installation.
Thanks, Tim.

I didn't realize that the insertion loss is 3.5 db for that combiner. That's a lot. I ordered the Pico Macom UVSG and I'll install it as soon as it arrives. That should make a big difference I would guess.

I'll head up on the roof tomorrow to play with some of your other suggestions. Thank you again for your recommendations and suggestions.
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