The Great Mystery of WNYT - Channel 12 (13.1) in the Hudson Valley

[PhilS]

Greetings all, I'm in Red Hook, NY, and have an OTA conundrum. WNYT, our NBC affiliate, is nowhere to be found, though it should be on channel 12 (virtual 13.1). Here's my TV Fool report:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...2c15958598a12a

Here's my Gear:

• Antenna = Radio Shack VU90XR antenna (80" boom, 26 element)
• Preamp = RCA TVPRAMP1R
• Cable = 50' generic coax; no splitters anywhere.
• Tuner = Built in LG 60PB5600

Here's the story: I have the big antenna up in my attic, aimed at ~352degrees. (Basic ply roofing, with asphalt shingles.) When I search for available channels on my TV, WNYT (channel 12, virtual 13.1) is not there AT ALL. I do receive 23.1 no problem - and according to the report - it should be less slightly worse reception than 13.1.

I'm flummoxed. I've tried three different tuners (my new LG TV, a standalone Samsung DTBH260F, and an iView 3500STBII) all with the same result. None can find the channel, and if I manually tune them to it, it says signal not found. If you look at the report, you'll see that lots of channels use the same transmitter location, and I get all of the other channels from that location with no problems whatsoever. (Once in a great while there will be a bit of digital noise on 23.1, but that's it.)

Here's the dedicated Transmitter Profile Detail on the channel: WNYT (Digital)
Channel: 12 (it's virtual channel 13.1; I don't know why that doesn't show up in the report.)
Network: NBC
Maximum ERP: 30.000 kW
Coordinates: 42.625355 -74.010128

Effective ERP: 30.000 kW (Adjusted according to your location)
Distance: 44.6 miles Azimuth: 352 degrees Compass: 5 degrees

There you have it... Please help! Why on earth doesn't WNYT (ch. 12, vir. 13.1) show up at all? Many, many thanks!

Here's the direct report:

[PhilS]

Also - Of course I could try getting the antenna up on the roof, but I'm trying to avoid that if possible... It'd be a huge hassle to do it, and I'm not sure it would fix the problem, since I already get channels with "worse" reception quality than WNYT.

[GroundUrMast]

Bear in mind that a TVFool reception report is an estimate, because it does not have access to a perfect terrain profile and no knowledge of buildings or vegetation.

I'd try testing reception outdoors, either by moving the existing antenna or by using another. Attics vary a great deal, some are satisfactory reception locations... Others pose insurmountable reception challenges.

Different frequencies are affected by reflective surfaces and other obstacles in the propagation path. Even though the signals originate from a nearly common location, you can not presume they will all encounter equal path impairments.

[PhilS]

Originally Posted by GroundUrMast

Bear in mind that a TVFool reception report is an estimate, because it does not have access to a perfect terrain profile and no knowledge of buildings or vegetation.

I'd try testing reception outdoors, either by moving the existing antenna or by using another. Attics vary a great deal, some are satisfactory reception locations... Others pose insurmountable reception challenges.

Different frequencies are affected by reflective surfaces and other obstacles in the propagation path. Even though the signals originate from a nearly common location, you can not presume they will all encounter equal path impairments.

Thanks for the quick reply! I will try to give it a shot with another antenna outside if I can figure out an easy way to do so... (And when there's no blizzard at hand!)

To further complicate matters... I left out one bizzare detail: A few weeks ago, on an average Saturday afternoon, the channel suddenly came in perfectly. It was after I'd tweaked the aim of the antenna, and I though "Ah ha!" I figured it out! It worked perfectly - showed strong reception #s for the channel for a few hours, and that was that.

And that evening when I tried to show my handiwork to the wife it was gone. I had not touched a single thing - it just vanished. I climbed back up and checked the antenna, and it was precisely as I'd left it. The weather was the same - clear and dry - just no signal whatsoever.

I guess I just chalk it up to a feisty attic gremlin?

There is a chance that I could reasonably move the antenna across the attic and have it just pointing out the gable-end of the house, rather than the roof. Perhaps that would help? (Though it would be very, very near the electric drop - would that mess up signals?)

[GroundUrMast]

If there is no risk of the antenna system coming in contact with power, then certainly try alternate locations in the attic.

[ADTech]

Install an FM filter at the input of the preamp. The one from Radio Shack should be fine, item # 15-0024, about $5. You have a TON of FM within 5 miles and, while the RCA is "pretty good" in not overloading from FM, it is not bulletproof. Make sure the internal trap is also set to on or in.

[PhilS]

Originally Posted by GroundUrMast

If there is no risk of the antenna system coming in contact with power, then certainly try alternate locations in the attic.

Definitely no risk of contact - the power drop is outside the house and the antenna will be safely inside the attic. I was more concerned if the electromagnetic field from the power line might interfere with reception, since the antenna would be pointed very near the power line.

(Obviously I know very little about the intricacies of TV reception!)

[GroundUrMast]

The electrical service drop and other wiring in a typical home or business can emit RFI... A great deal in fact. But it's generally going to have more impact on the VHF bands, particularly the L-VHF band. There may be problems in the UHF band as well, but metal close to any antenna is likely to cause detuning of the antenna and 'skewing' of it's intended polar pattern which can have just as negative effect on reliable reception as RFI.

All that to still say, try moving the antenna, both in the attic and outdoors. What you've got now isn't working to your satisfaction so keep experimenting until you find a location/height combination that produces acceptable results. Your TV Fool report suggests that such a location should be fairly easy to find (at least outdoors).

[Tower Guy]

I'd agree with other posters that your problem is interference. Yet I doubt FM overload as there is no FM station that will have a second harmonic on channel 12. I also doubt electrical interference as WRGB on channel 6 would be the first one to be bothered. I'd suspect a computer, amplified FM antenna, battery charger or some other unrelated device. Moving the antenna to the roof is likely to fix it due to stronger TV signals plus weaker interference. The other option is to turn off all circuit breakers in your house except for the one to the TV set. Then unplug everything but the TV set and preamp and see if WNYT comes in. If it works, turn things on one at a time until you discover the culprit.

Another possibility is a bad preamp. You may not even need the preamp in Red Hook unless you are splitting to many TV sets.

[PhilS]

Originally Posted by Tower Guy

I'd agree with other posters that your problem is interference. Yet I doubt FM overload as there is no FM station that will have a second harmonic on channel 12. I also doubt electrical interference as WRGB on channel 6 would be the first one to be bothered. I'd suspect a computer, amplified FM antenna, battery charger or some other unrelated device. Moving the antenna to the roof is likely to fix it due to stronger TV signals plus weaker interference. The other option is to turn off all circuit breakers in your house except for the one to the TV set. Then unplug everything but the TV set and preamp and see if WNYT comes in. If it works, turn things on one at a time until you discover the culprit.

Another possibility is a bad preamp. You may not even need the preamp in Red Hook unless you are splitting to many TV sets.

Thanks for the suggestion - I couldn't think of anything that was different one the one day that it worked, but I'll try your circuit-breaker idea, and see what happens. One thought I did have: The 50' coax that I'm running between the antenna and TV seems a bit thinner than some other coax I've handled. Could a problem like this be due to inferior coax cable shielding? (and to that end... would it be worth buying a "good" run of coax - whatever that is - and re-running the cable?)

I did find that the preamp seemed to help pull other fringe stations in, so I hope it's not that!

[No static at all]

Are you using any type of amplified speakers? I had a Cyber Acoustic speaker system that wiped out channel 12, even with the antenna on the roof far from the TV.

[GroundUrMast]

Re. cabling, shielding in particular; For OTA reception, reliable connections are vital. An open or high resistance shield connection can easily cause problems with some, but not all channels. Of course, if the connection is bad enough, all channels can be affected.

However, you don't need to spend extra money on quad-shielding because the antenna end of the coax is intentionally wide open to the environment... It's connection to the antenna is purposely 'un-shielded' so that OTA signals can be conducted into the coax. Satellite systems on the other hand, need the extra shielding because the LNB shifts the frequency of the signal coming down from the satellite which is from 4 to 18 GHz (C and Ku Bands) down to a range below 3 GHz. The LNB to satellite receiver connection is therefor using frequencies that conflict with various terrestrial services. The added shielding of RG-6Q protects the satellite system and terrestrial systems from interfering with each other. Satellite system designers need to treat the LNB to receiver connection as a closed system. On the other hand, OTA reception and distribution to the tuners is an example of an 'open' system.

If you suspect weathered, damaged or poor quality cable... Or you suspect unreliable connections, then yes, replace the suspect cable with a good quality double shielded run of RG-6 / RG-6U.

[PhilS]

Originally Posted by No static at all

Are you using any type of amplified speakers? I had a Cyber Acoustic speaker system that wiped out channel 12, even with the antenna on the roof far from the TV.

Hmm... I do have the TV connected to a Samsung HTIB, which is a amplified 5.1 surround system. (And as part of the media center, there's also a Roku and Chromebox - all of which is plugged into the same powers trip as the TV and preamp, if it makes any difference.). I'm out of town tightnow, but when I get back, I'll try unplugging that and seeing what the story is. Thanks!