Stuck in a hole.

LoTech · 11-Feb-2011, 3:43 PM

Reception at my house is slim to none. TV Fool Report

So far I have been able to reliably get WYMT and WKHA, but WCYB still eludes me. The report above is for the location with the best possible reception of WCYB on my property (according to TV Fool).

Would it be possible (or reasonable) to use a VHF low antenna and a big pre-amp to get this signal to my house which is about 300 feet away? I'm open to suggestions if someone else has a better idea.

ADTech · 11-Feb-2011, 5:05 PM

Sure, it's (likely) possible and may work. It's likely your best and only chance.

A VHF-only pre-amp such as the AP-3700 would be expected to drive a VHF-5 signal 500-700 ft through RG6 coax. If you used RG11, you could likely go a bit further, perhaps 20% more.

No static at all · 11-Feb-2011, 5:16 PM

Unfortunately a VHF-LO station with a noise margin that low will be impossible to receive reliably.

Tower Guy · 11-Feb-2011, 5:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoTech

Would it be possible (or reasonable) to use a VHF low antenna and a big pre-amp to get this signal to my house which is about 300 feet away? I'm open to suggestions if someone else has a better idea.

Here's what I'd do.

I'd install a beambender on the top of the mountain that's 3/4 mile SE of your house at 37.144445,-82.83597. Here's the tvfool report for that location http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...e07cb01bcdfbe2

To make it work you'd need two Y5-2-6 antennas, a 20 +/- db gain preamp, a channel 5 bandpass filter, an MATV amplifier with about 50 db of amplification, a solar cell, and a battery.

The antenna aimed at channel 5 would be on the SE side of the peak, the second antenna would be on the NW side of the hill and aimed at your house. The antennas would be mounted 100' or more apart. They could be closer if the hill itself shielded them from each other.

This is the right filter. It goes between the preamp and the MATV amplifier.
http://www.summitsource.com/pico-mac...5-p-10398.html

This is the type of MATV amplifier that's needed.

http://www.summitsource.com/50-db-di...mp-p-8557.html

Mount the antennas and solar panel to trees. Camouflage the solar panel. Bury the battery and amplifier in a watertight cooler. Run RG-6 coax along the ground, or bury it if you can.

http://www.axcera.com/downloads/tech...technote_7.pdf'

LoTech · 11-Feb-2011, 5:22 PM

Quote:

A VHF-only pre-amp such as the AP-3700 would be expected to drive a VHF-5 signal 500-700 ft through RG6 coax. If you used RG11, you could likely go a bit further, perhaps 20% more.

Thanks. What antenna would you suggest for this setup?

LoTech · 11-Feb-2011, 5:28 PM

Quote:

To make it work you'd need two Y5-2-6 antennas, a 20 +/- db gain preamp, a channel 5 bandpass filter, an MATV amplifier with about 50 db of amplification, a solar cell, and a battery.

This sounds intriguing. Would that work through all the trees on the mountain? I'm afraid that I would invest a lot of money only to have nature filter out the signal when the leaves start to sprout.

Tower Guy · 11-Feb-2011, 5:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoTech

This sounds intriguing. Would that work through all the trees on the mountain?

Yes, channel 5 will penetrate the trees. Even so, it's a major science project with multiple things to design and install properly.

ADTech · 11-Feb-2011, 5:54 PM

Might also depend on whether he owns or can get access to that mountain.

John Candle · 12-Feb-2011, 7:49 AM

Run 2 more tvfool reports. One with the antenna height at 30 feet and one with the antenna height at 60 feet. I will provide simpler information about Tv reception. . How many Tv's will be connected??

LoTech · 12-Feb-2011, 1:29 PM

30 foot Report 60 foot Report

It seems that the signal gets worse with height. It maxes out at 5-15 ft in this location.

John Candle · 12-Feb-2011, 2:48 PM

I see improvements in signal strength as the height goes up at 37.15 / -82.84 . Watch those Callsign letters , the Tv Stations , some change places as the height goes up. . At 60 feet it looks like this WYMT 26.1 , WAGV 2.0 , WKHA -0.3 , WCYB -8.3 . . WCYB went down 2.3 . The others went up , some a lot. . At the >>StartMAPS<< part of tvfool the antenna can be moved around and up and down looking for better reception.

John Candle · 12-Feb-2011, 3:57 PM

If you send a private message with the address of the house , I can be of more help with WCBY 5 and the other channels

John Candle · 12-Feb-2011, 5:08 PM

Lo Tech has Many other posts. Is your antenna/antennas still in the attic??

John Candle · 13-Feb-2011, 9:59 AM

A phenomenon known as ground wave Tv reception might work at your location for channel 5. A Winegard YA 6260 low band Tv antenna will be no more then 1 foot above ground , the antenna can be rotated by hand to find the strongest reception. -6.2 NM(dB) . I have sent a private message of the antenna location. Go to the >>Start MAPS<< part of tvfool and put in the latitude/longitude. Here are 2 Ultra Low Noises amplifiers you can select from. http://www.researchcomms.com , http://www.kitztech.com . At >>Start MAPS<< the antenna can be moved around , searching for better or worse reception conditions.

John Candle · 14-Feb-2011, 8:30 AM

Here is one to check out Go to slingbox demo day at BestBuy. The singbox tuner can be at a place that gets good strong reception of the channel/channels you will like to watch and transmits the Tv channel any where there is a internet connection , even your house. The sling box Tv receiver can be at some ones house or apt. or condo etc.. The sling box tv receiver receives the channel and transmits on the internet to your house.

Tower Guy · 14-Feb-2011, 2:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Candle

Here are 2 Ultra Low Noises amplifiers you can select from.

Ultra low noise figure preamps offer almost no advantage on low band VHF. The atmospheric noise is so high on channel 5 that an off the shelf preamp is as good as necessary.

LoTech · 14-Feb-2011, 2:08 PM

Thanks for all the info guys. Really! I'm going to have to do some investigating as to where I can get signal, and what that signal strength is before I continue. I'm liking the idea of a passive repeater, but I'm apprehensive about starting the project. Oh well, a new work week starts and it'll be a few days before I find anything out. I'll post back with my results - positive or negative.

Tower Guy · 14-Feb-2011, 4:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoTech

I'm liking the idea of a passive repeater.

In your case totally passive won't work, the signal is too weak to start with. Some gain is necessary, but how much depends on multiple variables. I calculate that you'd need about 50 db of gain, and if the TX/RX antennas are 100' part, more than that amount of gain would not work (due to feedback). That's a small margin for error, so plan on 200' of separation or install the antennas on different sides of the hilltop.

The Eagle Aspen MATV amp that I posted earlier shows different gain specs on the Eagle Aspen web site than the Summit Source web site. You could start with two high gain preamps such as the Channel Master 7777, yet the solar power interface for the amp will need to be designed. I don't have a 7777 to reverse engineer. The Winegard AP series of amps uses a 18 volt wall wart supply with a three terminal regulator inside the preamp. I didn't take one apart to determine the voltage on the three terminal regulator. The HDP-269 amp doesn't have enough gain.

Strictly speaking, a booster must be licensed, but if you use the least amount of gain necessary and a channel 5 filter, no one will know. Your neighbors (not that you have many) could also access the signal.

LoTech · 16-Feb-2011, 3:17 PM

I've done some checking, and the terrain is just too rough to get to the top of the mountain to the southeast. There is a spot on top of a little mined out plateau to the northwest at 37.149474,-82.844778 (you have to look at the satellite imagery because the terrain features aren't exactly correct). If I set the antenna height at 1 foot it shows that I could get WCYB at a noise margin of about 9. With the antennas that Iceberg mentioned, would this be enough signal to set up a passive repeater (or amplified) to beam the signal back down into the valley below about 750-1000 feet LOS? If so, where would I place the transmitting antenna? The problem I see is that I would have to put the transmitting antenna almost in the same direction as where the signal is coming from.

Tower Guy · 16-Feb-2011, 4:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoTech

There is a spot on top of a little mined out plateau to the northwest at 37.149474,-82.844778 (you have to look at the satellite imagery because the terrain features aren't exactly correct). If I set the antenna height at 1 foot it shows that I could get WCYB at a noise margin of about 9. .

With a NM of 9 db I think that the low band noise would doom the project. Even if it didn't, your amplifier gain would need to be about 75 db. That would mean that the antennas would need to be about 1600 ft apart and spaced horizontally so that they don't aim at each other in order to work properly. From that location, 1600' of cable would almost reach your house.

I have actually built a beambender and know the process very well. You can see it here: http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=r2q...q=hancock%20ma (rotate the image left for a better view)

It has a 4' dish aimed at Pittsfield, an 8' dish aimed toward Altamont, and 50 db of gain. It's mounted on a 60' tower and powered by a solar panel and two 12 volt deep cycle batteries. It works on 2 GHz.