Advice for Newbie

[Jeremiah]

Hi all,

I am completely new to this whole antenna thing and would like some help and guidance before I go blind buying things. Here is my report:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...1dda9e44b45bb8

FYI I did not enter in a value for the height above ground level.

What antenna (preferably from Amazon) would you recommend for the best setup and highest amount of channels? I notice that some channels are at 249º while others are at 40º. I am not exactly sure what this means so if you could also explain that I would be most grateful. I plan on having at least two TVs hooked up to it and would much prefer to install it in the attic. What will give me the best reception and highest amount of channels?

Thanks so much.

Your location has (some but not all) Easy To Receive , OTA=Over The Air , Digital Broadcast Tv stations/channels of 2 directions.

Not all Tv stations are of 1 direction. That is why the Tv stations are of different directions.

One reason is , cities that are closer together can have their own separate Tv stations.

And cities that are far apart can have their own Tv stations.

Another reason is , many Tv stations have more then one transmitter location so as to cover/transmit over a larger and larger area.

Another reason is , Tv stations buy or lease land to install a transmitting tower , the land price , lease price , zoning regulations , are factors of where the Tv transmitting tower is.

Another reason is Tv stations on the same channel are further apart so as not to have same channel interference reception situations.

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Attics and the inside of buildings Is/Are Not a reception friendly environment and Never Will Be a reception friendly environment.

Signals are , deflected off the building , multi-path/reflection-signals bouncing all around in the attic and building , and signals are absorbed by building construction.

That said.

The reception of the Strong Signal Strength Local Tv stations/channels of 2 directions , about 262 and 54 degree magnetic compass directions are Strong at your location.

Instal in the attic , a Winegard HD7082P all channel antenna aimed at about 280 degree magnetic compass direction.

Here is how to aim antennas , http://www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html.

As always the starting antenna aim direction is the -> starting antenna aim direction.

Most Digital Tv's have a signal strength meter and some Digital Tv's also have a signal quality meter.
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The current Tv channel bands are.

VHF low band channels 2 thru 6.

VHF high band channels 7 thru 13.

UHF band channels 14 thru 51.

Your location has receivable Tv stations/channels in all three Tv bands.

Instal the HD7082P all channel antenna that receives All 3 Tv bands.

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WNYT , NBC , REAL UHF Digital channel 18 , at 54 degree magnetic compass direction.

And WNYT , NBC , REAL VHF Digital channel 12 , at 262 degree magnetic compass direction.

Are both , WNYT , NBC , with 2 separate transmitters at 2 locations.

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WNGN-LP REAL UHF Digital channel 23 , and WNGX-LD REAL UHF Digital channel 25 , at 54 degree magnetic compass direction are both , FamilyNet - Religion.
The transmitting antennas are aimed in different directions , the transmitter is only 6.7 miles from your location so both signals are strong and will be received.

The Digital Broadcast Tv stations/channels that are in the Green and Yellow , Current Plus Pending Applications Included reception zones should be received.

If there are reception issues/problems that are not be resolvable by antenna aim adjustments and/or antenna location in the attic then Move the antenna to Above the Peak of the Roof for better reception.

WYPX-DT REAL UHF Digital channel 50 , virtual number (55.1) ION. Is Very Weak Signal Strength at your location and will most likely not be received with antenna in the attic.

If you will like to receive WYPX , ION , then install the HD7082P antenna above the peak of the roof.

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Install a Winegard HDP-269 preamp.

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For 1 Tv connected use No splitter.

For 2 Tv's connected use a , HFS-2D , 2 way splitter.

For 3 Tv's connected use a , HFS-3D , 3 way splitter.

Buy the HFS splitters at , http://www.solidsignal.com , or , http://www.hollandelectronics.com.

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The HD7082P antenna has been discontinued , Amazon has 10 left in stock , http://www.amazon.com.

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As always , trees and tree leaves , plants and plant leaves , do a good job of , absorbing , multi-path/reflecting , blocking , Digital Broadcast Tv reception and so do buildings and other obstructions including your own roof and house.

It is best to install the antenna at a location that has the least amount to no amount of obstructions of any type or kind in the directions of reception including your own roof and house.

The Tv's Must Channel Scan for the Digital Broadcast Tv stations/channels , often named the 'Air Channels' or , 'Antenna Channels' in the Tv Setup Menu because the Tv transmissions travel through the Air from the transmitting antenna to the receiving antenna.

Some Digital Tv's will Automatic channel scan for cable tv channels.

DO NOT channel scan for cable tv channels.

Go into the Tv Setup Menu and select , 'Air Channels' ~ 'Antenna Channels'.

[Jeremiah]

Thanks so much for reply.

Why do you recommend the Winegard over, say, the #1 best selling antenna on Amazon, the RCA ANT751R?

What does an antenna pre-amp do and why is it necessary? Since the signals are strong in my area I'm not sure why I need it.

Thanks,

Just because a antenna is a number one seller does not mean that the antenna is the correct antenna for every reception situation.

The ANT751 Will Work for - Your reception situation - ->the degree/ability/how many channels - of reception will best be discovered by You.

Install a ANT751 in the attic.

Test for reception of WYPX , ION , Qubo , ION Life.

Test for reception of the other low signal strength digital tv stations channels.

Test for reception with and with out a preamplifier in the attic.

Move the ANT751 to above the roof , test for reception with and with out the preamplifier.

If you will like to install a antenna Above the Peak of the Roof and dispense with the HD7082P big antenna and the testing with the ANT751 antenna.

Then as a Test.

Above the Peak of the Roof install a Winegard HD7000R All Channel Antenna aimed at about 280 degree magnetic compass direction.

Try reception with and without the preamplifier.

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You can install the ANT751 or any other type or kind of antenna.

Here is the Truth.

There are No Honest Magic Tv antennas.

There are No Scam Magic Tv antenna.

There are No Magic Tv antennas.

[GroundUrMast]

The ANT-751 will have less gain and no intentional design support for reception of real channels 2 through 6. It simply does not fit your application the way an antenna designed for 'all channel' reception will.

If you opt for a small all channel antenna such as the HD7000R, you'll be increasing the risk of less reliable reception of the weaker signals that are available to you.

A preamp will help overcome cable and splitter losses. This is not a problem for the strong signals listed on your report, but the weaker signal are going to be in need of amplification if they're to make it all the way from the antenna to the tuners.

I would take teleview's advise on this, and go with the 7082.

[Jeremiah]

Many thanks to both of you. However, the 7082 will end up totaling over $100 after shipping charges. I have been looking at Winegard's other offerings and I'm wondering, at that price, if it would be wiser to just go with the 7694P, 7697P, or even the 8200U. I'd feel more comfortable buying one of these as they are available direct through Amazon who has a worry-free return policy.

Thoughts? Would you be able to explain the differences?

[GroundUrMast]

Of the antennas you've listed, the HD8200U is the only all-channel option. All of the 769X series antennas are designed to cover real channels 7 through 69... which would leave you with WRGB at risk of reception problems.

Given your desire to buy through Amazon, consider the RCA ANT3036WR, http://www.amazon.com/RCA-ANT3036WR-...ds=rca+antenna The Winegard would be more durable IMO, but if the RCA lasts half as long as the 7082 you'd be about even.

[Jeremiah]

Wow, I would have totally missed that. Thanks.

Given that I anticipate that it will be installed in the attic, I am not so much worried about durability as it would not have to deal with the elements.

I do not really care about ION so could I get away with no pre-amp?

On that note, how would you install an antenna that large in an attic, anyway?

[GroundUrMast]

Generally, you are going to have to assemble/unfold the antenna in the attic. The attic will need to be large enough to allow the antenna to be aimed properly. Measure carefully. Then you're still taking the chance that the attic may or may not be a useable reception location due to penetration losses and/or signal reflections.

Attic or outdoors, try with no preamp. Make your first tests and aim adjustments with only one TV connected (to eliminate the losses caused by splitting). Then, when you know what the antenna actually delivers, you can assess the need for amplification.

Based on the frequent questions asked about amplifiers, it seem many people have the mistaken idea that an amplifier is a substitute for an antenna, or that it can improve the performance of an antenna. Both notions are false. An amplifier can only 'push' signal through losses in cable and splitters attached to the output of the amplifier. Amplifiers also add noise and distortion to the signal, over and above that which was in the air.

If you prove the need for amplification, and are mounting everything indoors, the Channel Master CM-3410 is a very good distribution amplifier that is hard to overload and also has decent noise/distortion performance. It can be powered remotely if needed. http://www.amazon.com/Channel-Master.../dp/B001FY0B90, http://www.amazon.com/PCT-Inserter-M.../dp/B005Y12UH6

[Jeremiah]

Originally Posted by GroundUrMast

If you prove the need for amplification, and are mounting everything indoors, the Channel Master CM-3410 is a very good distribution amplifier that is hard to overload and also has decent noise/distortion performance. It can be powered remotely if needed. http://www.amazon.com/Channel-Master.../dp/B001FY0B90, http://www.amazon.com/PCT-Inserter-M.../dp/B005Y12UH6

It has now been several months, and I do have the antenna installed. Well, it appears I will need this amplifier after all. Two questions, though: What is that PCT Inserter that you linked to and what is its function? And, since I am splitting the signal, will that 1 port amp work or do I need one with two ports? I guess what I am asking is if the signal has to be split at the amp itself, or if I can split the signal coming out of the amp with a regular 2-way splitter.

Thanks again.

[GroundUrMast]

No need to buy another splitter... the splitter built into the CM-3412, 3414 & 3418 are no improvement over the existing passive splitter you already have. The amplifier is the same in each of those models as that used in the 3410.

The CM-3410 can be powered via the coax... that allows you to mount the amplifier close to the antenna even when there is no outlet close by.

If you are willing to run a new piece of coax from the outlet to the amplifier, you won't need the PCT MPI-1G Remote Power Inserter. The connection between the amplifier and the power supply 'brick' is regular RG-6 coax terminated with standard F connectors... Just like the rest of your cables.

The PCT MPI-1G Remote Power Inserter comes in handy when you want to avoid running coax from an outlet to the amplifier. You'll still need a short piece of coax from the power supply - into the PCT MPI-1G Remote Power Inserter.

It boils down to which option makes sense in your situation.

Here's links to the instruction sheets:
http://www.pctstore.com/v/vspfiles/a...on%20sheet.pdf
http://support.channelmaster.com/att...tion+Sheet.pdf

[Jeremiah]

Originally Posted by GroundUrMast

No need to buy another splitter... the splitter built into the CM-3412, 3414 & 3418 are no improvement over the existing passive splitter you already have. The amplifier is the same in each of those models as that used in the 3410.

Well, that was all a spectacular failure.

Ran about 75 ft of coax in the attic from a power outlet to the amp. Used the included 6 ft of coax to run the amp to the antenna itself, then connected the TV line.

Everything worked great until I attached the second line to the splitter in the basement. First line plummeted from 18 channels to 3. Second could not pick up anything. Now I am at a loss and am wondering what to do.

I know you said I don't need another splitter, but should I purchase the CM-3412 instead? Is there another way?

[GroundUrMast]

Does this diagram accurately depict your connections?



What make and model splitter are you using?

[Jeremiah]

That looks about right. The splitter is an Antronix CMCDT2106T-HEP.

[GroundUrMast]

Aaaahhhhh...

The CMCDT2106T-HEP is a directional tap, not a splitter. http://www.antronix.net/Products/cat...oppassives&i=8

If you switch to a CM-3412, you would need to run more cable or locate the amplifier at the present location of the tap. That would either cost time and money or reduce the benefit of locating the amp where it can overcome all the system losses. I would stop by Home Depot and buy an Ideal #85-132 2-way splitter for less than $4.

Also, be absolutely certain that the power coax is connected only to the 'PWR IN' port on the CM-3410, not the 'PWR IN / RF OUT' port. You need to be sure the power line does not feed power into the splitter or TV tuners.

[Jeremiah]

Brilliant! Will see about getting that done tomorrow. Bravo.

[Jeremiah]

I still can't believe I'm having issues with this- really, this is maddening- but I am. I obtained the Ideal #85-132 splitter and installed it. There was a minor improvement: instead of losing 15+ channels on the first line, I only lose one or two. However, the second line is still DOA.

I think I know what you will say next: move it outside. This can indeed be done, but with the all effort and expense that it will take to do this, I want to be absolutely sure that I have exhausted all other options. So, once again, any ideas?

[GroundUrMast]

Is there any chance there are satellite system parts somewhere in-line with the runs of coax?

Is there any chance of a cable company service still attached to any of your coax? (Internet access for example.)

I would go buy one or two 100' cables with factory installed connectors. Bypass the suspected bad cable runs, at least as a test...

[Jeremiah]

Originally Posted by GroundUrMast

Is there any chance there are satellite system parts somewhere in-line with the runs of coax?

Is there any chance of a cable company service still attached to any of your coax? (Internet access for example.)

I don't think so, no.

In any event I went ahead and decided to put it outside. At the moment it is about 4 feet above the roof. After installing it I tested to see if it worked with just the line coming from the antenna and I got one channel. What the ****? What the hell is going on? I have it pointing in the general direction of 280º like recommended above and it's now doing worse than it did in the attic. I don't know how that's possible. Tomorrow I'm going to go ahead and replace the line coming from the transformer with one that is tested and working, but my hope is all but evaporated that it will work. I will try with the amp as well. I really, really, don't want to have to get basic cable.

[StephanieS]

Jeremiah,

Great help has been given by Teleview and GroundUrMast,

I do want to share results that I have gotten using my RCA ANT751 and putting either a distribution amp or a preamp on the mast - neither benefit me. In the end, in my situation, I lose signals due to either overloading or factors I am not aware of.

Thus, my RCA ANT751 operates unamplified pushing it's signal down 150' of coax to the farthest TV. The configuration has an initial 100' drop of coax to get indoors, to an A/B switch, then to a power passing Eagle Aspen P-1000-2AP-GX 2-Way Splitter and finally to the two leads, 20' and 50' respectively.

My other antenna, an Antenna's Direct 91XG, has a RCA Preamp on the mast, then pushes it's signal down the 100' drop to the A/B switch. The preamp power adapter is at the end of the 100' drop. From there, the set up is the same as the RCA ANT751's flow chart.

Both my antennas perform as expected. I wish I had a little more signal on the ANT751 for a weaker channel I enjoy, but that is a minor gripe.

The fact with a single lead, before adding the second coax everything worked fine shows your drop from the antenna and the antenna itself is fine.

Regarding the coax issues, I agree with GroundUrMast, things seem suspect. I generally prefer to do a fresh install instead of piggybacking on old satellite company installations, thus you know all the parts you've put into it the set up.

Going on your roof and having worse reception is not normal, attempt another location on the roof. Double check your connections. Has your coax been harshly bent, kinked or roughed up? That can make a difference and a big one.

You had success in the attic with everything but the second lead. Before moving the antenna outdoors (the ideal place) I'd have replaced that second lead. Keeping the setup in place would've allowed you to troubleshoot the second lead and getting the set up as a whole 100%

Antenna installs are a macro and micro problem management. If you know as a whole the system is good, like you did, you can focus on micro problems, like the second lead.

Pick up a replacement for that second lead... and let us know

I might try removing all amplification and just splitting the coax (with the new second lead) and see how that fares, then adding amplification back in the chain so you can see a side by side comparison of results.

Originally Posted by Jeremiah

I don't think so, no.

In any event I went ahead and decided to put it outside. At the moment it is about 4 feet above the roof. After installing it I tested to see if it worked with just the line coming from the antenna and I got one channel. What the ****? What the hell is going on? I have it pointing in the general direction of 280º like recommended above and it's now doing worse than it did in the attic. I don't know how that's possible. Tomorrow I'm going to go ahead and replace the line coming from the transformer with one that is tested and working, but my hope is all but evaporated that it will work. I will try with the amp as well. I really, really, don't want to have to get basic cable.