Noob in central WA needs help with install

matter · 3-Jan-2014, 7:12 PM

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...46ae266debcbcd
Here is my analysis, I am replacing an ancient UHF bowtie and so far have installed a CM 4221hd and it is aimed South. My old install had a Radio Shack pre-amp that had 300ohm connections so the mast mount transmitter won't work with my new antenna. I still have the inline amp hooked up that went with that and further down the line I have a Radio Shack distribution amp. There is about 100' of coax overall to the tv. The antenna is about 20' high.
The stations come in pretty good except 11.1 and 11.2 are probably the worst and often won't come in at all, 42.1 and 42.2 are next worse. I was planning to get another pre-amp but don't know what would be the best. If I take the old amp from the pre-amp out of the line I lose just about everything.
Thanks in advance for any help, hope I gave enough info to help.

ADTech · 3-Jan-2014, 8:00 PM

You need a VHF antenna for channel 11, the 4221 is a UHF antenna. You also really need a stronger UHF antenna plus a modern pre-amplifier.

GroundUrMast · 3-Jan-2014, 8:02 PM

If you are trying to receive the Tri-Cities stations, I'd recommend a large combination such as the Antennas Direct DB8e + Antennacraft Y10713 + RCA TVPRAMP1R. Mount high and clear of obstructions such as trees & buildings.

StephanieS · 3-Jan-2014, 8:24 PM

Greetings from Cheney, Matter!

If I am reading your post correctly, you do receive the translators at magnetic 263 well and you have two goals:

1. Recommendation of a new preamp.

2. Improvement of Tri-Cities signals.

For one, I'm a fan of a RCA TVPRAMP1R preamp. I use one in tandem with an Antenna's direct 91xg for reception of KLEW's Moscow/Pullman translator at 56 miles.

KFFX is very weak and may not improve much. If I were to attempt to increase reliability, I would purchase a second antenna, specifically an Antennacraft Y10-7-13 for high-band VHF coverage and orientate it to magnetic 133. I would repurpose your CM4221 HD to magnetic 263 to focus on KSPS, KAYU, KXLY, KYVE, and KREM translators. KHQ may require a Antenna's direct 91xg to have any chance at reliable reception at this heading.

Via RCA TVPRAMP1R, connect Y10-7-13 coax to VHF input, then connect CM4221 coax to UHF input. Run lead from preamp into home as usual.

KVEW is very weak and has even lesser likelihood of reliable reception. See above comment about Antenna's Direct 91xg being necessary for any chance at this signal and other Tri-City broadcasts.

When you start getting around -82 to -85 dbm at your location, variances in atmosphere can effect the signals and knock it below reception threshold.

If I were you, I'd concentrate on translator farm at magnetic 265 and have a little fun with KFFX while having a realistic expectation that any other Tri-Cities signals are severely compromised by hills south of town and may never be fully reliable.

Good luck!

matter · 3-Jan-2014, 9:26 PM

Wow, thanks for all the speedy responses! Unfortunately I am a bit stupid about much of this and am somewhat confused. I have my antenna aimed at around 139 deg. and that is about where I had the old one. My old one actually worked pretty good but I hoped I could make it better so I decided to open this can of worms.
StephanieS you are correct as to what my goals are (I think) as wanting a modern preamp but not knowing what one. Also I don't know how you tell channel 11 is VHF by the chart. It has always came in pretty good so I assumed it was UHF. Also I get a bit confused also matching the channels from my tv together with the radar chart.
I just did a channel scan and currently I am getting channels 7.1, 7.2, 7.3, 25.1, 25.3, 31.1, 31.2, 31.3, 39.1 thru 39.7, 42.1 and 42.2. I guess I am not sure what I am getting from where really. They are all pretty much Tri Cities though. I guess I am thinking putting on a preamp and see what I have? The channels I do get seem much cleaner than the 20 year old UHF antenna I replaced. The KVEW 42.1, 42.2 actually comes in very good right now.

StephanieS · 3-Jan-2014, 9:46 PM

Hello Matter,

Yes, we quick draw around here, lol.

Your reception of Tri-Cities is much better than your plot suggests. Just going by your plot, I'd have little to no hope of anything other than KFFX. Receiving KNDU (where I worked for awhile in the 90s), KVEW and KTNW is fantastic.

As to specific TV broadcast bands there are three: low band VHF channels are 2-6, high band VHF channels are 7-13 and UHF is 14 and above.

With the exception of KFFX, you are dealing with UHF signals.

With your better than expected reception off Jump Off Joe (KNDU, KVEW, KTNW) with the 4221, GroundUrMast's suggestion of an Antenna's Direct 91xg and Antennacraft Y10-7-13 pointed to the Tri-Cities may yield you better results than your plot suggests.

With the TVPRAMP1R, you may find you see the translators off the side as well. With my 91xg I see all of my Spokane signals off the rear quarter @ 16 miles.

It all depends which are your priority signals. To focus on the Tri-Cities, you may only see a couple of the Wenatchee area translators if you do the 91xg and Y10-7-13 pointed at Kennewick. Is your focus Kennewick or Wenatchee?

The digital world of TV is all or nothing in terms of reception unlike the old analog fade to snowy oblivion. In digital, if you decode the signal with enough strength it'll look amazing (assuming you aren't watching ION with SIX subchannels, then that's a compression issue). Digital reception is either there or it isn't. There is no fade.

SS

Quote:

Originally Posted by matter

Wow, thanks for all the speedy responses! Unfortunately I am a bit stupid about much of this and am somewhat confused. I have my antenna aimed at around 139 deg. and that is about where I had the old one. My old one actually worked pretty good but I hoped I could make it better so I decided to open this can of worms.
StephanieS you are correct as to what my goals are (I think) as wanting a modern preamp but not knowing what one. Also I don't know how you tell channel 11 is VHF by the chart. It has always came in pretty good so I assumed it was UHF. Also I get a bit confused also matching the channels from my tv together with the radar chart.
I just did a channel scan and currently I am getting channels 7.1, 7.2, 7.3, 25.1, 25.3, 31.1, 31.2, 31.3, 39.1 thru 39.7, 42.1 and 42.2. I guess I am not sure what I am getting from where really. They are all pretty much Tri Cities though. I guess I am thinking putting on a preamp and see what I have? The channels I do get seem much cleaner than the 20 year old UHF antenna I replaced. The KVEW 42.1, 42.2 actually comes in very good right now.

matter · 3-Jan-2014, 9:57 PM

They say every can of worms has a lid somewhere, but I wonder...
So I tried turning towards 260 and was a little disappointed but I understand now that I am getting many of the channels from there even when I am aimed south. So I just turned to about 160 and things look pretty good for no preamp. So I think I will order a RCA TVPRAMP1R and a Antennacraft Y10713 and see where that leaves me. Do I need to worry about distance between the two antennas?

StephanieS · 3-Jan-2014, 10:05 PM

While at heading 260 did you do a rescan on your TV? In the digital world, when you reorientate your antenna towards weak signals rescanning is a good idea.

The fact you see KSPS' translator while not pointing at it gives me a hint that the other Wenatchee translators might be receivable with a stronger UHF antenna as ADTech suggested.

It sounds though like Tri-Cities is the priority? If so, additionally order the Antennas Direct 91xg is my recommendation. You may find KEPR decodes as well working in tandem with the preamp. The 91xg will give you the best chance at UHF reception of Tri-Cities.

Quote:

Originally Posted by matter

They say every can of worms has a lid somewhere, but I wonder...
So I tried turning towards 260 and was a little disappointed but I understand now that I am getting many of the channels from there even when I am aimed south. So I just turned to about 160 and things look pretty good for no preamp. So I think I will order a RCA TVPRAMP1R and a Antennacraft Y10713 and see where that leaves me. Do I need to worry about distance between the two antennas?

matter · 3-Jan-2014, 10:11 PM

I did rescan. So take off my cm 4221?

StephanieS · 3-Jan-2014, 10:45 PM

If you are going to focus exclusively on the Tri-Cities, yes.

Install a Antennas Direct 91xg (orientated to magnetic 161) along with Y10-7-13 (orientated to magnetic 133) along with the RCA TVPRAM1R Preamp for the best possible chance at reliable reception of that market.

When you install antennas, connect 91xg to UHF/Combined TVPRAMP1R input. Connect the Y10-7-13 to the dedicated VHF input. The preamp will combine antennas into one lead going down into your home.

Let us know how this works out.

matter · 3-Jan-2014, 11:03 PM

I will. The 4221 was a Christmas gift so I may try to stick it out depending on my options. So no interferance concerns of the antennas being too close together?

StephanieS · 3-Jan-2014, 11:18 PM

On the same pole, make sure you mount them 4 to 5' apart if possible.

If you have them "on top" of each other, that isn't ideal and can cause the antenna to not perform as well. Four to five feet spacing ought to be fine on the pole.

Many mount multiple antennas on one pole.

See my set up before I did some wire adjusting last summer. The smaller antenna (ANT751) serves as a backup and if KXLY is being flaky on the 91xg, the ANT751 will likely have a solid lock on it.

Both antennas have separate leads of coax coming inside. I switch between them via an A/B switch.

My set up:

Quote:

Originally Posted by matter

I will. The 4221 was a Christmas gift so I may try to stick it out depending on my options. So no interferance concerns of the antennas being too close together?

StephanieS · 4-Jan-2014, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matter

7.1, 7.2, 7.3, 25.1, 25.3, 31.1, 31.2, 31.3, 39.1 thru 39.7, 42.1 and 42.2. I guess I am not sure what I am getting from where really.

7.1 - 7.3 - KSPS via K49KV-D located near Misson Ridge (One of the
Wenatchee area translator clusters)
25.1, 25.3 - KNDU primary signal from Jump Off Joe Butte south of Kennewick
31.1 - 31.3 - KTNW primary signal from Jump Off Joe Butte south of Kennewick
42.1 - 42.2 - KVEW primary signal from Jump Off Joe Butte South of Kennewick
39.1 - 39.7 - K39dk-d transmitting from south of Moses Lake in the Saddle Mountains

bytor · 4-Jan-2014, 5:44 AM

quote:
"Your reception of Tri-Cities is much better than your plot suggests. "

I have found this true also with the Wenatchee area Stephanie regarding reception and the radar plot i was given . I am a NOOB to this also Matter.

I am Using a Dennys HD stacker with what I consider to be great success. I have aimed this antenna pretty much every direction and reception is great in all directions and best at 180Degrees.

Good to see another Central Washingtonian here.

StephanieS · 4-Jan-2014, 6:36 AM

That's amazing, I recall living in Ellensburg years ago and swore I saw a snowy KNDU. Reflection off the northern hills of the Kittitas Valley?

Do you receive KEPR as well?

What's your elevation?

I ran an ANT751R only pointed at 80 degrees magnetic that brought me most Spokane locals not terrain shielded (@ 16 miles, LOS) and an Idaho PBS translator (@ 55 miles, LOS) for a year. Then last summer I added the 91xg to specifically go after KLEW's 1kw Moscow/Pullman translator (@ 56 miles, 1-edge) which is reported at about 7db field strength. KLEW is almost fully reliable except in icing conditions at the transmission site.

DX'ing must be fun with your reception! I am lucky I can even run a preamp to work with the 91xg. I'm so close to the Spokane locals they are putting 65 db signals on me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bytor

quote:
"Your reception of Tri-Cities is much better than your plot suggests. "

I have found this true also with the Wenatchee area Stephanie regarding reception and the radar plot i was given . I am a NOOB to this also Matter.

I am Using a Dennys HD stacker with what I consider to be great success. I have aimed this antenna pretty much every direction and reception is great in all directions and best at 180Degrees.

Good to see another Central Washingtonian here.

matter · 9-Jan-2014, 8:40 PM

OK, I got a preamp and a Y10713 and as soon as I get a chance I will be doing an install. I think I am going to stack the Y10713 on the same pole as my CM4221 about 4 ft apart. Which one would I want above the other?

matter · 9-Jan-2014, 9:33 PM

Quick update, I decided to take 10 minutes and do a quicky install of the preamp using just the CM4221 that is already installed. No turning of the antenna or anything, just a rescan and I went from maybe 15 channels to 31 digital and 2 analog. That includes the 11.1 and 11.2 VHF that I was trying to get. They come in perfect so now I am not sure I am going to install the Y10713 after all. Might wait and see if it is consistent. Then again, I have it just sitting here, might try it to see what else I can find.

GroundUrMast · 9-Jan-2014, 10:13 PM

That's a nice update.

If you mount the two antennas on the same mast, the UHF antenna will usually do best at the top and the VHF below...

StephanieS · 10-Jan-2014, 4:56 AM

Nice to hear.

I would be curious the strength of KFFX RF 11 though. If your signal is weak and just above threshold of reception, weather may affect it. It may be a good idea to install the Y10-7-13 anyway are my thoughts. The Y10-7-13 will likely yield an increase in strength and stability over the CM4221's reception.

Did you pull in KEPR? I imagine the Wenatchee area translators are the others that made an appearance. I'm also very curious about KBWU-LD, RF channel 36. It is a lower powered UHF repeater for KFFX for the immediate Tri-Cities metro. Does your TV give you a menu that will give you the real RF channel instead of the virtual?

Could you give a highlights of the stations you picked up?

Quote:

Originally Posted by matter

Quick update, I decided to take 10 minutes and do a quicky install of the preamp using just the CM4221 that is already installed. No turning of the antenna or anything, just a rescan and I went from maybe 15 channels to 31 digital and 2 analog. That includes the 11.1 and 11.2 VHF that I was trying to get. They come in perfect so now I am not sure I am going to install the Y10713 after all. Might wait and see if it is consistent. Then again, I have it just sitting here, might try it to see what else I can find.