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Old 30-Sep-2011, 11:38 AM   #1
k3n0bl
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N00b Needs Help

First off, AWESOME WEBSITE! JUST WHAT I NEEDED!

I am trying to get an idea if I can receive a station 92 miles away. Using the call sign lookup form, I was able to find out that i am at the edge of one of the outtermost light pink spots of southwest ohio.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...&q=call%3dWBNS

The TV Signal Analysis Results for my address has this station in the grey. Not sure what you would need to know exactly, but the NB (db) is -16.7 and the PWR (dbm) is -107.5. I am not sure what all that means but I assume it is a foundation for the equipment I would need? From my roof there are 2 trees that are blocking the angle I assume I would need. Is this whole thing doable? What equipment would I need?
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Old 30-Sep-2011, 12:10 PM   #2
John Candle
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Tv Antennas and Reception

Also need the tvfool radar report that shows your exact address location , and the antenna height. Make two reports , 25 and 40 feet antenna heights. Also how many tv's will be connected?? . http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=4

Last edited by John Candle; 30-Sep-2011 at 12:12 PM.
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Old 30-Sep-2011, 12:18 PM   #3
k3n0bl
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Also need the tvfool radar report that shows your exact address location , and the antenna height. Make two reports , 25 and 40 feet antenna heights. Also how many tv's will be connected??
I believe this is what you wanted..?
25 Ft
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...60b5d9cb5ff489

40 Ft
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...60b580231cd0f4

Whenever I will want the long distance reception, only 1 TV will need to be hooked up. But normally I will have 2-3 TVs hooked up.
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Old 30-Sep-2011, 12:43 PM   #4
k3n0bl
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Sorry about that!

25 ft
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...60b591632a4d3b

40 ft
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...60b56e90aa82aa

I would like to have more than 1 tv hooked up, but its not a big deal if I don't. I am only interested in the channel I posted above (WBNS).

Last edited by k3n0bl; 30-Sep-2011 at 12:46 PM.
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Old 30-Sep-2011, 2:25 PM   #5
MisterMe
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Originally Posted by k3n0bl View Post
...

I would like to have more than 1 tv hooked up, but its not a big deal if I don't. I am only interested in the channel I posted above (WBNS).
You have two other closer and more reliable CBS affiliates--WHIO and WKRC. In fact, they are both in the green. Out of curiosity, what is so special about CBS affiliate WBNS that you prefer it over the other two?
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Old 30-Sep-2011, 2:27 PM   #6
k3n0bl
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Out of curiosity, what is so special about CBS affiliate WBNS that you prefer it over the other two?
They are far more consistent at showing my sports teams

Any advice is appreciated! I am brand new to this stuff, I am wondering if it's just a pipedream that I can get the station lol.

Last edited by k3n0bl; 30-Sep-2011 at 2:39 PM.
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Old 30-Sep-2011, 2:44 PM   #7
Dave Loudin
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Originally Posted by k3n0bl View Post
The TV Signal Analysis Results for my address has this station in the grey. Not sure what you would need to know exactly, but the NB (db) is -16.7 and the PWR (dbm) is -107.5. I am not sure what all that means but I assume it is a foundation for the equipment I would need?
Have you read the Signal Analysis FAQ? It will tell you what you need to know. Assuming you have read that, then you would know that chasing a station with a NM at your location of nearly -12 dB via a troposhperic scatter path is going to be very hard. Reliable reception, meaning having spare signal strength to protect against all sorts of signal fading, requires +10 dB NM. You would need an antenna with 22 dB gain (amplifiers DO NOT COUNT in this - they zero out cable losses) and that is not possible.

You will see WBNS on occasion with the typical fringe-area antenna. You just won't be sure when.
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Old 30-Sep-2011, 2:49 PM   #8
k3n0bl
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Have you read the Signal Analysis FAQ? It will tell you what you need to know.
I read it yes, but I am not savvy on this stuff whatsoever, thanks for clearing it up.


Quick question here, after some quick googling, I came up with a site Tropospheric Ducting Forecasts.
http://www.dxinfocentre.com/tropo_eur.html
Would this aid me in predicting the likelihood of receiving better signals?

Last edited by k3n0bl; 30-Sep-2011 at 3:10 PM.
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Old 30-Sep-2011, 3:48 PM   #9
Tower Guy
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You will see WBNS on occasion with the typical fringe-area antenna. You just won't be sure when.
Reception of WBNS on channel 21 would require not only a large antenna array, but also additional rejection of WCPO on channel 22. WCPO is predicted to be 69.6 db stronger than WBNS. Another concern is WUPX, also on channel 21.

Consider a pair of 91XG antennas stacked horizontally 1.5 or 2.5 wavelengths apart. (about 3' or 4.9') The 91XG by itself will attenuate WCPO & WUPX by roughly 30 db. The stack would improve that to 50 db, which might be just enough. The next problem is how to use a preamp that is not overloaded by the strong local stations, including WCPO. The Tinlee CF-7 filter outdoor model is one solution. http://tinlee.com/bandpass_filters.php?active=1#CFAL The filter would be installed between the antenna and the preamp. A good preamp would be the Kitztech KT-200-COAX http://www.kitztech.com/

Last edited by Tower Guy; 30-Sep-2011 at 3:54 PM.
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Old 30-Sep-2011, 4:18 PM   #10
k3n0bl
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Reception of WBNS on channel 21 would require not only a large antenna array, but also additional rejection of WCPO on channel 22. WCPO is predicted to be 69.6 db stronger than WBNS. Another concern is WUPX, also on channel 21.

Consider a pair of 91XG antennas stacked horizontally 1.5 or 2.5 wavelengths apart. (about 3' or 4.9') The 91XG by itself will attenuate WCPO & WUPX by roughly 30 db. The stack would improve that to 50 db, which might be just enough. The next problem is how to use a preamp that is not overloaded by the strong local stations, including WCPO. The Tinlee CF-7 filter outdoor model is one solution. http://tinlee.com/bandpass_filters.php?active=1#CFAL The filter would be installed between the antenna and the preamp. A good preamp would be the Kitztech KT-200-COAX http://www.kitztech.com/
Whoah! Thanks a lot!
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Old 30-Sep-2011, 9:33 PM   #11
Tower Guy
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Whoah! Thanks a lot!
You're welcome. I'll be rooting for the Bills on Sunday, sorry.
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Old 30-Sep-2011, 11:48 PM   #12
be236
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Reception of WBNS on channel 21 would require not only a large antenna array, but also additional rejection of WCPO on channel 22. WCPO is predicted to be 69.6 db stronger than WBNS. Another concern is WUPX, also on channel 21.

Consider a pair of 91XG antennas stacked horizontally 1.5 or 2.5 wavelengths apart. (about 3' or 4.9') The 91XG by itself will attenuate WCPO & WUPX by roughly 30 db. The stack would improve that to 50 db, which might be just enough.
What do you mean? Two 91XGs would bring his dB gain to 50dB? One 91XG is rated at 16.7dB.
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Old 1-Oct-2011, 9:09 AM   #13
k3n0bl
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What do you mean? Two 91XGs would bring his dB gain to 50dB? One 91XG is rated at 16.7dB.
I am new to all this stuff, but i think he was saying the 91XG would weaken the gain from WCPO, which is something i would have to do to get the station I want, WBNS

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You're welcome. I'll be rooting for the Bills on Sunday, sorry.
Don't be sorry cuz I'll be rooting for the Bills too lol, the whole reason I want WBNS is because they show my Browns much more often than the Dayton CBS lol. Bills are looking great this year. I always have to check out www.the506.com to see how I can watch my Browns. Columbus carries almost every single game, even if there is a blackout in Cleveland.

I contacted Tin Lee Electronics about the filter, they said the following

"Because of the azimuth between WCBO & the desired WUPX, you will still likely pick up the ch.22 quite strong. We can only build a custom CF7 filter that will further suppress ch.22 by another 20db. Insertion loss may be up to -4db on your ch.21. It is best to get an idea of the actual ch. 22 level by measurement if possible. If it still comes in strong, the filter still may not be sufficient . Let me know. Filter coxt is $325 US."

Is $325 about right? It'd be worth it if it works, but if not that's a bit of change to throw away.

Last edited by k3n0bl; 1-Oct-2011 at 10:21 AM.
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Old 1-Oct-2011, 2:01 PM   #14
Dave Loudin
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You must be very serious about this. Keep in mind that with the stack of XG-91s, the filter, and a preamp, you may still not have 100% reliable reception.
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Old 1-Oct-2011, 7:11 PM   #15
Tower Guy
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Is $325 about right? It'd be worth it if it works, but if not that's a bit of change to throw away.
$325 is too high. Use this instead http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...Hz-%28BPF-U%29

Select channel 21.

Tinlee is right, the filter itself would not not eliminate channel 22. The pair of antennas are intended to drop channel 22 only enough to eliminate preamp and tuner overload.

Dave is right too. Reception of channel 21 may not be 100% reliable. It may be necessary to play with antenna location and/or height to optimize the signal.
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Old 2-Oct-2011, 3:48 PM   #16
John Candle
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Tv Antennas and Reception

http://www.slingbox.com/go/slingbox , has the Slingbox Pro HD , that will receive a broadcast digital tv channel and transmit the channel via the internet to your tv. The receiving/transmitting sling box is located where the the tv station can be received , like at a relatives or friends house or apt. etc. , with simple rabbit ears type antenna , http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=233 , or a outdoor antenna can also be used.
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Old 3-Oct-2011, 3:54 PM   #17
k3n0bl
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the Slingbox Pro HD , will receive a broadcast digital tv channel and transmit the channel via the internet to your tv.
I have the Slingbox Pro HD, which doesnt live up to the name unless you have an ISP with sufficient enough upload bandwidth, which none of the ISPs in my area have 3 Mbp/Sec upload. I have family in the area where i would like to put it but none of them are tech savvy and I'm afraid to leave it there if something goes wrong since I am virtually never in that area.

After downloading the Columbus google earth torrent, the pink area of WBNS seems to be right on the edge of my house, possible inside it, hard to tell lol. If not, the pink areas seem to be only a few feet higher than where I am at. I can realistically get 30 ft with a 2 story home. The angle I'd have to go is right through some trees, not sure how realistic this whole thing is. lol
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Old 3-Oct-2011, 7:38 PM   #18
Tower Guy
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The angle I'd have to go is right through some trees, not sure how realistic this whole thing is.
The predicted signal levels and interference for reception of WBNS is marginal. Add the trees and some inexperience, I'd rate your chances for success at less than 50%.

My own quest for additional NFL regional games has been mostly unsuccessful. I did it prior to TVFool, so my results were more trial and error.

I'm on a hill about 500' above Albany, NY.
The tower is 120' tall Rohn 45.
The antenna is a Channel Master 4228 old style.
The preamp is a Winegard AP 4700.
The feedline is 400' of 3/4" hardline.
The rotator is an old CDR Ham-M.
The HDTV set is a Zenith 34" CRT style with built in ATSC tuner.
I've built these filters http://www.wa4dsy.net/cgi-bin/idbpf

It picked up analog stations in Hartford, CT; Utica, NY; White River Junction, VT; Rutland, VT, Worcester, MA; and LPTV stations in Glens Falls, NY and Cooperstown, NY. With DTV, only Utica is reliable.

I have not played with the reception for several years. With analog off the air I could try other preamps and better tuners.
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Old 4-Oct-2011, 2:08 AM   #19
John Candle
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Tv Antennas and Reception

There is a growing number of devices that take a internet feed from the tv station and feed it directly to the tv.
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Old 4-Oct-2011, 9:31 AM   #20
phone man
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Originally Posted by k3n0bl View Post
I read it yes, but I am not savvy on this stuff whatsoever, thanks for clearing it up.


Quick question here, after some quick googling, I came up with a site Tropospheric Ducting Forecasts.
http://www.dxinfocentre.com/tropo_eur.html
Would this aid me in predicting the likelihood of receiving better signals?
Actually, this is the map you want http://www.dxinfocentre.com/tropo.html
and according to the maps, Oct 5-9 might yield some long distance opportunities.
I'm 35 miles northeast of Columbus and can get WHIO and WPTD from Dayton (98 miles) once in a while but it's a rare event and only lasts a couple hours at a time.
You're sure you want to see Dom Tiberi that bad?? LOL!
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