What antenna/equipment needed for cabin in the Pocono Mts. of NEPA?

[Two Bears]

New to OTA and could use a little (lotta) help.
I have a cabin in the Pocono Mts. of NEPA and would like to receive the basic
channels ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX. Anything else would exceed my expectations.

The cabin is about 1800 ft. above sea level, with the top of the mountain being at about 1850 ft. The nearest towers appear to be about 23-36 miles away in the Wilkes-Barre/Scranton area. The cabin is located in a state park with about 26K acres of state forest behind me ... lots of trees!

Somewhere along my learning journey I came across a terrain elevation and there appears to be no other mountains, obstructions, etc. between the cabin and the towers ... just a lot of trees.

I'm assuming an attic installation won't work well, being a single story with an attic, but I can mount on the roof peak at about 20-25 feet in height.

What antenna/other equipment would you recommend?

TV signal analysis report:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...e1c6f590d8563b

Thanks in advance, and I'm sure more questions to follow.

[GroundUrMast]

Your TV Fool report is flagged, WARNING: Address was only resolved to street level and might not be that close to your actual location. For more accurate results, try entering a specific address or coordinates.

If the posted report is reasonably accurate, I would use an Antennas Direct DB8E facing about 340° and an Antennacraft Y10713 pointed at about 266°. Use an RCA TVPRAMP1R preamplifier which has inputs for both antennas.

Be sure to avoid obstructions such as trees and structures... Including your roof, I doubt an attic installation will provide satisfactory results.

[Jake V]

The towers at magnetic 343 and 339 degrees are translators that provide all the Scranton stations.

The towers at magnetic 266 degrees are the main towers for the same stations (except W18BN).

I'd aim at 340 degrees first with the DB8e since those are all UHF.

[Jake V]

And for a more accurate TV Fool Map go to http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?opti...pper&Itemid=90

Enter your address. Click "Map This". At the top right click "Satellite". Zoom in and move the red cursor so it is exactly over your cabin. Then change the "antenna height" to whatever yours will be. Then at the top right click "Make Radar Plot". Post that link in this thread for comparison. It might be the same or much different.

+=>

Go to the Tvfool home page.

Click on >>Start MAPS<< .

Enter in a Exact address or a zip code.

Move the Pointer to the Exact Location.

Make the antenna height 25 feet above ground.

Click on the (Make Radar Plot) button.

Post the report .

[Two Bears]

OK ... here is the new report. I think you're all asking for the same thing, if not let me know.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...e1c6284db3f4be

GroundUrMast: Thanks for the recommendation. Would you still recommend this with the new plot? Is there an alternative to the Antennas Direct DB8E?
Although this looks like it gets great reviews on Amazon, even with some attic installations, it kinda looks like, well, for lack of a better description, a giant fly swatter. Is there a boom type antenna available with equivalent specs that you could recommend? Also, with the Antennacraft Y10713, is this additional antenna just to receive channel W18BN? What is this channel?

Looking at the RCA TVPRAMP1R preamplifier, does this also require a power supply to it while mounted on the mast?

Jake V: Wouldn't you point to the main towers rather than the translators? Do you know what the W18BN channel is? It seems like people report that they receive like 20-30+ stations after hooking up their antenna's, but there seems to be only about 8 or so main stations (ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, PBS, ION, WB, IND). Are they getting duplicate stations in other languages?

Teleview: The pointer was only about a half a mile off to the north from the original plot? What would you recommend with this new plot?

BTW ... thanks to all of you for the quick replies. I am so glad I found this site, and appreciate all of your help very much.

[Jake V]

Two Bears,

Your new report might change things. It might be better to point for the towers at magnetic 267 and 298 degrees. But in that direction there is a combination of VHF Hi and UHF, so a different antenna(s) might be more appropriate.

As to the translators, they carry the same signals as the main towers. They are meant to provide the television signal to areas not reached by the main broadcast towers.

Others will comment on the best antenna for your new report.

As to the number of stations, most of the channels have one or more sub-channels. The total number of distinct stations in Scranton/Wilkes-Barre is about 15-20 (not sure if you would want to count the shopping networks). A look at the Newfoundland, PA zip code (which is probably close to you) would be something like this - although I see some stations from Binghamton and Allentown that you will not get. And I could not find out what W18BN is.

Jake

+=>

The second Tvfool Report has Important Differences.

Concerning the Digital Broadcast Tv Stations/Channels and Networks , in the Green and Yellow Reception Zones of the Tvfool Report.

The Digital Broadcast Tv Stations and Networks of the , North West Group , and the , ~West~ Group , Are The Same.

The , North West Group , is All UHF Tv Channels and the North West Group is All LOS=Line Of Sight Reception.

LOS is easier to receive then 1 and 2 Edge Path Obstructions Tv Stations of the ~West~ Group.

-------------------

I recommend receive the , North West Group of All UHF Channels Tv Stations in the Yellow Reception Zone.

Install a , Antennas Direct , DB8e , UHF Channels 14 thru 51 antenna.

Buy the , DB8e antenna , at http://www.amazon.com

Aim the DB8e antenna at about 344 degree magnetic compass direction.

Here is how to aim antennas , http://www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html.

Use a Real and Actual Magnetic Compass to aim antenna , do not trust a cell phone or tablet compass and etc. compass.


-------------------

A antenna system amplifier will most likely not be required for , 1 , 2 , 3 , Tv's connected.

For 1 Tv connected use No splitter.

For 2 Tv's connected use a 2 way splitter.

For 3 Tv's connected use a 3 way splitter.

------------------

Here are some above the roof antenna mounts.

http://www.ronard.com/909911.html.
Install the , ronard(911) , 5 foot tripod antenna mount.

http://www.ronard.com/34424560.html.
Install the , ronard(4560) , eave antenna mount.

http://www.ronard.com/ychim.html.
Measure around the chimney and use a , ronard(2212) , ronard(2218) , ronard(2224) .

http://www.ronard.com.

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Home Depot has , 10 foot 6 inch , 1 and 3/8 inch diameter , TOP RAIL , chain link fence , PIPE , that makes good antenna mast pipe.
Low price of about 10 dollars.

-----------------

As always , obstructions in the direction of reception will disrupt reception.

Avoid Obstructions in the direction of reception such as and not limited to , roof , building , trees and tree leaves , plants and plant leaves , and any and all other obstructions.

[GroundUrMast]

JakeV is correct, if there are translators that serve well, you may be able to omit the Y10713.

I'd still use the DB8E.

[Two Bears]

Sorry for not replying back, but I've just been so busy.

So ... I bought the DB8E antenna, 50' coax cable from Monoprice and a new Samsung 32" HDTV. Hooked it all up at the cabin and received about 8 channels with the antenna just sitting on a couch leaning against a wall.
Moved the antenna around and received about 11 channels, with an all time best 18 channels when it was mounted in the rafters of a screened in back porch. Two weeks later, went back up and decided to try it in the attic.
Mounted it on a pole in the attic and adjusted, adjusted and adjusted some more but only received about 14 channels. Over the next several weeks, I've adjusted the antenna so many times I could'nt even tell you what direction it's facing now but I'm having trouble with receiving 2 channels ... 25 (CBS) and especially 28 (NBC).

The following week I went back up and mounted it on the roof on a 10' pole bolted to 2 2x4 boards mounted under the eave giving me a final height of about 7' above the roofline ... possibly 25' off the ground. I thought I would have no problem getting the 18 channels with the roof mount but it was actually worse than the porch rafter mount. We adjusted this thing for 2 days and still could'nt get the 18 channels back. I'm so confused. We adjusted the antenna so much that the last best position has both of the antenna panels sorta criss-crossing each other, which I don't think is correct, but it works to get the NBC channel, but not the CBS channel.

I contacted Antenna's Direct Support and talked to a tech for over an hour and she suggested several things: installing an amplifier, installing some sort of converter (sorry, I wrote it down, but left it at the cabin), and then she said that the NBC channel was a VHF channel and that she would sell me a discounted C5 antenna, which is a long range VHF only antenna. Now I'm really confused. I thought all of these channels were UHF, that's why I bought the DB8E, and I was able to get both of them eventually just not reliably at the same time ... CBS and NBC. I really don't want to shell out another $100 for the C5, but if that's the only way to get around this, I will.

Since we didn't receive any better reception with the roof mount, I have taken the antenna down and mounted it back in the attic, receiving about 14 channels, but still having trouble with the CBS and NBC together.

So .... what say the experts?

Am I doing something wrong when adjusting this antenna?
Is there a certain procedure other than just moving it and adjusting?
The last time we adjusted it, we tried to get just the CBS and NBC channels first, but when we adjusted it further to get all the other channels, we had trouble getting them and the CBS/NBC channels together.

Is there any other reason I have to roof mount if the attic mount works jsut as well or better?
I really prefer the attic mount for looks, and not having to ground the mast and coax.

Do I really need a VHF only antenna like the C5 that the tech suggested?
I know the DB8E (UHF only) is capable of getting both of those channels.

I will be going back up next week and would like to fix all this, so would really appreciate some advise from the experts. Thanks in advance.

Confused and frustrated ........................................

+=>

Most Likely the added section of coax is bad.

The coupler that connects the coaxes together is bad.

The splitter is bad.

The etc. is bad.

To Prove Reception , connect a New Continues Length of coax to the DB8e antenna and run the New Continues Length of Coax through a open door or window direct to 1 Tv.

No couplers , No splitters , No etc.

It is the DB8e antenna , A continues lenght of New Coax , Direct to the Tv.

As always , trees and tree leaves , plants and plant leaves, have a Negative Effect on Broadcast Tv Reception.

Some and not all Negative Effects are.

Absorbing and Blocking Reception.

Multi-Path Reflecting Tv Signals Bouncing All Around.

The Best Practice for Reliable Reception is to install the antenna at a location that has the least amount to no amount of obstructions of any type or kind in the direction/s of reception.

--------

Digital Tv Tuners can develop -Digital Glitches- that are not cleared out with simple channel scans.

To Clear Tuner do Double Rescan.

www.wchstv.com/DoubleReScanAlert.pdf

[Jake V]

How did you point your antenna (inside and outside)?

Did you use a compass and aim to 344 degrees (roughly NNW)?

CBS (WYOU) and NBC (WBRE) at the translators at 344 degrees are both UHF (Real Channels 25 and 28).

If you were aimed at 267 degrees (slightly north of west) then CBS and NBC are on Real Channels 11 and 13, respectively.

The DB8e should pick up CBS and NBC if aimed to 344 degrees since they are UHF, but it would not be surprising that it might not pick up these channels at 267 since they are VHF (the DB8e will pick up strong signals on the upper VHF channels but it isn't designed to).

[ADTech]

First off, the DB8e was never designed for VHF, so any expectation of reliable VHF reception with it is misplaced. While it may work, the VHF reception may be at very odd angles to the aim of the antenna which will make adjustment for UHF reception unreliable. If you need VHF reception, please plan accordingly for it separately. VHF stations are those with a number of "13" or less in the column labeled "Real". In your plot, only WBRE "Virtual (display)" 28.x and WYOU 22.x are VHF stations. All the others, regardless of displayed channel number, are UHF stations. The DB8e gets its maximum UHF performance when both panels are aligned parallel to each other. When separated to aim in different directions, sensitivity is reduced markedly.

Secondly, trees will represent an unknown amount of attenuation. Personally, I've measured attenuation values of anywhere from 10 dB to over 40 dB in a wet forest. When the wind blows and the trees move, it's far, far worse as the signals basically get shredded before ever getting to the antenna. After that, it's kind of like Humpty Dumpty. Weak UHF signals, especially those listed as "2-edge" are ones I anticipate will be unlikely to be reliable when the receiving location is in the woods.

All of the UHF signals from a heading of 344° magnetic are from the Waymart translator site. This site has a 300 watt maximum ERP for each transmitted UHF channel with only 255 watts pointed in your direction. From 24 miles away through a forest, I'd assume they will not be reliable, if received at all. You might get some of them some of the time, but I would not plan on them.

Because your location has the potential to get all of the Scranton stations from two potential sources, it is necessary for you to be able to identify the real channel being received as opposed to the displayed or virtual channel. Some TV sets make this easy, others difficult, others impossible. You'll need to dig into the menus of your set to see what diagnostic capabilities are available. Identifying stations by both their call letters and by their real channel removes all ambiguity. In order to properly diagnose your reception, this real channel information is vital.

I don't have the benefit of having your precise coordinates so I cannot see a rooftop view of your surroundings, so I can only give you general advise. The usual rule of "Higher is better" has two major exceptions, both of which are present in your area. The first has to do with the incoming signal path. When the signals must pass over hills or mountains, the only way signals can reach the shadowed area is by diffraction. The basic rule for that is that lower frequencies diffract more readily than do higher frequencies. This has the practical effect of spreading the signals vertically by frequency such that you might receive different frequencies and any given height of the antenna. The second exception is when in trees. Sometimes, lower can be better as the base areas of the trees can represent a slightly more open signal path than the crowns of the trees. In all, any location that offers a clear and unobstructed view of the horizon would be the Holy Grail. If none is available, your results fall into the "unpredictable" category. They will be whatever they turn out to be.

I'd suggest that you get the VHF antenna and the RCA pre-amp before returning. I'd also suggest that you be sure that you are able to get the real channel info from the set so that there is no confusion as to the signal received. Calling the received channel by their network affiliation isn't accurate enough.

[Two Bears]

For Jake V:
How did you point your antenna (inside and outside)?
Did you use a compass and aim to 344 degrees (roughly NNW)?

When we mounted it in the porch rafters, which is were we seemed to get the most channels, we sorta wedged it in there and not on a pole. It was just a spur of the moment kinda thing, not expecting it to work as well as it did. It was facing due West (about 270 degrees) with no adjustability of the panels due to the way it was wedged in there. We were able to watch the Stanley Cup final game with a crystal clear picture ... was pixilated at first, but cleared up after just a few minutes. The rest of the game was fine. I believe it was on NBC (28) or CBS (25), not really sure.

We did not have a compass unfortunately, so had to use cell phones ... I know, I know. I have since procured a real compass and will use that when we go up again this weekend.

When mounting it in other locations, it was on a pole with both panels flat (adjacent) to the pole, pointing roughly to 344 degrees, then we adjusted each panel separately, over and over again. When I talked to the AD tech support, she had me pointing at 267 degrees, but we still received the NBC and CBS signals on channels 28 & 25, not 11 & 13. The lowest number channel ever received after any and all scans was an ABC channel on 16.
I hope this answers your questions and I do appreciate your replies.


For AD Tech:
I'm not really trying to get VHF channels out of this antenna as I was told I should be able to receive all of the UHF channels and I understood this as being a UHF only antenna.

As far as the TV goes, I couldn't find any other diagnostic info as to whether the channels are real or virtual, and once scanned, pressing the Info button shows a signal bar, but I have issues with it's reliability as some stations will show a very weak signal but a crystal clear picture with no pixilation and some channels with a very strong signal will be totally unwatchable due to pixilation.

You said: Because your location has the potential to get all of the Scranton stations from two potential sources, it is necessary for you to be able to identify the real channel being received as opposed to the displayed or virtual channel.
How would I be able to do this?

You also said: I'd suggest that you get the VHF antenna and the RCA pre-amp before returning. I'd also suggest that you be sure that you are able to get the real channel info from the set so that there is no confusion as to the signal received. Calling the received channel by their network affiliation isn't accurate enough.
Would you also recommend the C5 as Tech Support suggested? If so, and I did install it right next to the DB8E in the attic, what would be the suggested procedure for adjusting both antennas, and how would I know what antenna is receiving what signals?

I understand that they would be joined by a combiner, then all thrown together in the coax to the TV so how would I tell and know what antenna to adjust? Also, wouldn't I need to purchase a combiner that has 2 UHF inputs, 1 VHF input, and of course 1 output to TV or does the combiner get the 1 input from the 2 DB8E panels connected to the coax output, and 1 from the VHF coax output?

Would you still recommend the RCA amplifier? If so, where does this get placed in the setup ... as the last thing before going to the TV? Does this need an electrical outlet near the antenna, which is in the attic? I've read that an amplifier could also cause more issues and not solve any problems, so if I tried the VHF antenna should I try it alone before adding a pre amp?

Thanks so much for all the info and replying ... I really do appreciate it.
And sorry for all the questions but this is all new to me and I'm trying to understand it all.

[Jake V]

If, when you had your DB8e in the porch rafters, you were pointing due West, it makes sense that you did not receive CBS (WYOU-22) and NBC (WBRE-28) since the towers in that direction broadcast on real channels 11 and 13.

It sounds like you might already have tried this, but, if not, I'd set the DB-8e so that both halves are pointed in the same direction, then point it to 344 degrees using a magnetic compass. If that doesn't work, then it doesn't work. ADTech's comments are interesting (thought the signal strength from 344 degrees are both at 25 dB so I'm surprised that he gives little chance of your receiving them). If this is the case, then point it back to the west (267 degrees) and add a VHF antenna and use a combiner. Others will make recommendation for the VHF antenna and signal combiner.

+=>

Please also see post number 11 in this thread.

The North West Group of Tv Stations are all Current UHF Channels 14 thru 51 Tv Stations/Channels.

The Tv Networks are the same , in the NORTH West Group and West Group , of Tv Stations.

The West Group of Tv stations has a mix of UHF and VHF channels.

Tvfool shows the Real Channel that is transmitted and received , and shows the , (virt) , virtual number.

The (virt) virtual number is Not a Real Channel , even if the virtual number is the same as the Real Channel.

--------

Aim the DB8e UHF antenna at about 344 degree magnetic compass.

[ADTech]

Would you mind sending me your precise coordinates by private message (if you wish to keep them out of a public forum)? The following procedure will get them:

Go to http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=90
Enter your full address and hit "Map This". You will get a Google map with its guess as to your location. Drag and drop the red balloon to your approximate location, click on "Hybrid" to switch to a combined map/satellite view, then fine tune the location by adjusting the balloon's location on the map onto your rooftop.

Under the lower left of the map will be a set of numbers similar to 36.410621,-92.239341 (Those the coordinates for our office)

Those are your GPS coordinates and are what I'll need to do an accurate assessment.

[Two Bears]

PM sent. Hope this is what you are looking for and again,
I really appreciate the help and advice very much. Thank you.

[Two Bears]

teleview:

Sorry, I did not see this post (#11) until last night, and quite frankly, I didn't know how to respond to it.

You said the coax is bad.
You said the coupler is bad.
You said the splitter is bad.
You said the etc. is bad. (???)

How do I respond to that. I doubt very much that "everything" is bad, as I do have reception. Very clear/good reception on some channels. I'm just having trouble with the 2 mentioned. I've read a lot of your posted replies and you seem very knowledgeable and your advice is respected here.
Not trying to pick a fight or disrespect you in any way whatsoever, just doubt very much all is bad. You may be right, there may be something bad, I don't know, and I'm sure you know a boatload more about this than I do. That's why I'm asking for help. I hope I misinterpreted this whole thing, and thank you for your help and advice.

[ADTech]

After looking at the aerial photos of the coordinates you sent, I can only conclude that it will be impossible to make an accurate prediction of actual reception conditions at your location.

Trying the pre-amp is a prudent measure. It might help, it might make no difference. It won't harm anything, in any event, if it is properly installed and it is functional.

Using a compass to get oriented is highly recommended.

Experimenting with the height and specific location is recommended.

Expecting reliable reception, especially on UHF, is probably not a realistic expectation due to the forest, topography, and the weak signals in the vicinity. The two VHF channels, with a VHF antenna, are less likely to be impacted by the foliage.

Wish I had a more optimistic prognosis about your situation, but I've spent way too much time out in the woods with antennas since the digital transition and almost every time there are problems.