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Old 16-Oct-2013, 3:14 AM   #1
PJ_WI
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Antenna Questions

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...46ae56db8af342

There is a very old antenna facing 320 degrees (via compass).

We receive channels

Channel, Gain
8.1, 21%
8.2, 24%
8.3, 26%
8.4, 21%
10.1, 21%
10.2, 23%
36.1, 10%
36.2, 11%
36.3, 13%

All the channels may brake up if it is windy. As the attached photo shows there are 80'+ pine trees blocking about 280-330 degrees. Woods and hill to south. More large pine trees to east.

The house isnít used often so I am looking for options to receive the 21.1(Fox) and 6.1 (NBC) without spending a lot of money. Only one TV is used.

We do not receive W32CV at all.

What is the maximum gain you can expect to receive?

Thanks,
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Old 16-Oct-2013, 3:28 AM   #2
PJ_WI
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Antenna Help

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...46ae56db8af342

There is a very old antenna facing 320 degrees (via compass). There is not a rotor.

We receive channels:

8.1, 21%
8.2, 24%
8.3, 26%
8.4, 21%
10.1, 21%
10.2, 23%
36.1, 10%
36.2, 11%
36.3, 13%

The house isnít used often so I am looking for options to receive the 21.1(Fox) and 6.1 (NBC) if possible and improve the current reception without spending a lot.

The attached photo shows the 80' plus trees blocking 280-330 degrees. Also woods and a hill are to the south and anything west is has large pin trees. The property is on high ground clockwise 270-90 degrees. South has the hill but we do receive 36.

Any suggestion are appreciated.
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Old 16-Oct-2013, 6:44 AM   #3
StephanieS
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Hello PJ_WI,

Those are some difficult conditions with 3 out of your 4 strongest signals being in different directions. Your current antenna is a warrior though. Been airborne awhile judging by the conditions of the elements.

Further, your current antenna appears to be VHF only. Which explains your challenge in receiving real channel 32 on UHF. A set up that'd use your existing mounting and would provide a test would be to purchase a Winegard HD8200U coupled to a RCA TVPRAMP1R pre-amp and aim it at 289 magnetic. You may get lucky and see RF 17 and 19, at very least it'll provide you knowledge that you have to go to the extreme level to pick up those signals which I elaborate on in the next paragraph.

Now the bad news and I hate to be the bearer of, but your signals on real channels 17 and 19 at 289 magnetic are the stuff of extremes. It is a positive you receive real channel 8. However, the foliage path blockage at 289 is something you have to get above especially for UHF signals, then there is no guarantee you will get RF 17 and 19. In certain cases single digit negative db signal strengths can be received, but getting into double negative digits is, as I mentioned, is the stuff of extremes. You can try, for example two Antennas Direct 91xgs co-phased for UHF coverage then a Antennacraft Y10713 for VHF coverage mounted three to four feet below the 91xgs atop a 100' tower to overcome immediate path blockages. However, that is a set up that'll run you a hefty bill of a several thousand dollars out the gate and that still may not reliably get the channels on 17 and 19. This is the kind of set up it'll take to pull in RF 17 and 19, presuming it's even possible.

Your situation actually reminds of me Richmond, Indiana. Many 50, 75 and even 100' towers snuggled right up against houses in efforts to receive Indianapolis TV, which in most of that city the Indy signals are down at low single digit db strengths above zero. A better situation than you have with the Duluth-Superior signals.

Why don't you for research purposes rerun your plot for your address at 100', 250' and 500' then share that with us. That will give some idea as to the level of edges and at what height the signals improve, if at all.

Last edited by StephanieS; 16-Oct-2013 at 7:44 AM. Reason: clarification
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Old 16-Oct-2013, 7:35 AM   #4
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Given the extreme distance between you and the transmitting antennas, some realistic expectations need to be set. Even with the following system you may not achieve fully reliable reception.

The largest antennas are needed if your are going to have a chance at reliable reception. You'll also need to be able to mount clear of the tree(s).

I would try an Antennas Direct DB8e equipped with their PA-18 preamplifier. It's goal would be real CH-17 & 19.

An Antennacraft Y10713 also equipped with a PA-18 preamplifier would be my choice for attempting reception of real CH-8 & 10.

Presuming you found acceptable reception with each antenna, you would then be able to combine the outputs of the separately amplified down-leads using a standard UHF/VHF signal combiner (UVSJ).
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Old 16-Oct-2013, 10:18 AM   #5
ADTech
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Quote:
We do not receive W32CV at all.
That is to be expected since it hasn't been built.

The trees will always be a problem (breakups when the wind blows) unless you can clear them one way or another.

Otherwise, GUM's suggestions are about as good as it is going to get. You might want to add a rotor for the UHF (only) antenna.
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Old 16-Oct-2013, 12:24 PM   #6
PJ_WI
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Thanks for the input.

We don't spend alot of time there so it isn't beneficial to spend alot of money.

I looked at DTV for my house and using mobil antenna since it isn't my property but I can't get the clear sight angles needed.

Would simply adding a rotor be an improvement?

What if the antenna was 8' off the ground aimed under the trees?
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Old 16-Oct-2013, 2:54 PM   #7
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Aiming under trees, if that affords a clearer path towards the horizon, can often improve reception by avoiding the detrimental effects that foliage has on weak signals.

However, your forecasted signals are very weak. You'll have to do as much right as possible in order to improve reception.
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Old 16-Oct-2013, 5:09 PM   #8
teleview
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Pratical and Useful Information.

I called KQDS concerning the repeater/translator station W32CV.

A informational chat with Chris 877-583-7369 in the engineering department at KQDS , www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KQDS-TV.

Chris says Yes W32CV is transmitting Analog transmission , not Digital.

And the other translator transmitters as listed in wikipedia are on the air and are also transmitting a Analog signal.

A channel scan for Analog Broadcast Tv Channels will receive W32CV.

W32CV is a strong signal at your location and will be easy to receive.

I will return with a recommendation of reception of Tv stations.

Last edited by teleview; 17-Oct-2013 at 3:42 AM.
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Old 16-Oct-2013, 5:29 PM   #9
PJ_WI
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teleview View Post
I called KQDS concerning the translator station W32CV.

A informational chat with Chris 877-583-7369 in the engineering department at KQDS , www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KQDS-TV.

Chris says Yes W32CV is transmitting Analog transmission , not Digital.

And the other translator transmitters as listed in wikipedia are on the air and are also transmitting a Analog signal.

A channel scan for Analog Broadcast Tv Channels will receive W32CV.

W32CV is a strong signal at your location and will be easy to receive.

I will return with a recommendation of reception of Tv stations.
So if I pluged the antenna directly into the TV we would recieve 32? Currently are using the converter box.

Thanks,
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Old 16-Oct-2013, 5:35 PM   #10
PJ_WI
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StephanieS View Post
Hello PJ_WI,

Those are some difficult conditions with 3 out of your 4 strongest signals being in different directions. Your current antenna is a warrior though. Been airborne awhile judging by the conditions of the elements.

Further, your current antenna appears to be VHF only. Which explains your challenge in receiving real channel 32 on UHF. A set up that'd use your existing mounting and would provide a test would be to purchase a Winegard HD8200U coupled to a RCA TVPRAMP1R pre-amp and aim it at 289 magnetic. You may get lucky and see RF 17 and 19, at very least it'll provide you knowledge that you have to go to the extreme level to pick up those signals which I elaborate on in the next paragraph.

Now the bad news and I hate to be the bearer of, but your signals on real channels 17 and 19 at 289 magnetic are the stuff of extremes. It is a positive you receive real channel 8. However, the foliage path blockage at 289 is something you have to get above especially for UHF signals, then there is no guarantee you will get RF 17 and 19. In certain cases single digit negative db signal strengths can be received, but getting into double negative digits is, as I mentioned, is the stuff of extremes. You can try, for example two Antennas Direct 91xgs co-phased for UHF coverage then a Antennacraft Y10713 for VHF coverage mounted three to four feet below the 91xgs atop a 100' tower to overcome immediate path blockages. However, that is a set up that'll run you a hefty bill of a several thousand dollars out the gate and that still may not reliably get the channels on 17 and 19. This is the kind of set up it'll take to pull in RF 17 and 19, presuming it's even possible.

Your situation actually reminds of me Richmond, Indiana. Many 50, 75 and even 100' towers snuggled right up against houses in efforts to receive Indianapolis TV, which in most of that city the Indy signals are down at low single digit db strengths above zero. A better situation than you have with the Duluth-Superior signals.

Why don't you for research purposes rerun your plot for your address at 100', 250' and 500' then share that with us. That will give some idea as to the level of edges and at what height the signals improve, if at all.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...46ae44d13ad833

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...46aec08a4850c8


100 and 200ft. Wow makes a huge difference.
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Old 16-Oct-2013, 9:17 PM   #11
teleview
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Pratical and Useful Information.

Newer Digital Tv's have Digital and Analog tuners.

Older Tv's have a Analog tuner but no Digital tuner.

Using the Analog tuner will receive W32CV.

The image/picture on the screen will be Analog so will not be the best quality.

_____________________

No matter what , a Big antenna is required for reception , to go after reliable reception of NBC , and to receive as many channels as possible.

As a Test of reception , remove the old beat up antenna and in it's place install a Winegard HD7698P antenna.

Replace All outside coax with New RG-6 coax that has the Compression type connectors on the ends of the coax , not the old crimp type connectors.

Replace All outside coax system connections and couplers.

Install a Winegard LNA-200 'Boost' XT antenna system amplifier.

For 1 Tv connected use No splitter.

_____________________

Test reception in 2 directions.

About 138 degree magnetic compass direction.

Here is how to aim antennas , http://www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html.

Use a Real and Actual magnetic compass to aim antenna.

Scan for Digital Broardcast Tv stations/channels.

_______________

Aim the HD7698P antenna at about 289 degree magnetic compass direction.

Scan for Digital Broadcast Tv stations channels.

___________________________________________________________

As always , the strating antenna aim direction is the --> starting antenna aim direction.

The aim direction can be adjusted for best reception.

Most Converter Boxes and Tv Tuners have a Signal Strength Meter and some also have a Signal Quality Meter.

___________________________________________________________

Digital Broadcast Tv Tuners can develop -Digital Glitches- that are not cleared out with simple channel scans.

It can help reception to do Double Rescans.

www.wchstv.com/DoubleReScanAlert.pdf.

----------------

Last edited by teleview; 16-Oct-2013 at 9:38 PM. Reason: Clarify information and typos.
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Old 16-Oct-2013, 9:19 PM   #12
StephanieS
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100' and 200' appear to be different zip codes. One being 54550 and the other 53550.

What got my attention was WGN, lol. I was like wait, that's not even listed on your 100' plot.

Is the 54550 the right zip code? If so, I ran a 100' generic zip code search and this is what it yielded:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...46aee7c1bb6e23

Granted it, it's not tailored to your address, but the signals at magnetic 289 are now above zero, which is greatly more doable for reception than double digit negative #'s. You may want to rerun your information at 100' and share it.
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Old 16-Oct-2013, 9:30 PM   #13
GroundUrMast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PJ_WI View Post
So if I pluged the antenna directly into the TV we would recieve 32? Currently are using the converter box.

Thanks,
The converter box is almost certain to block analog signals. If you turn it off, it may have 'analog pass-through'. If not, simply run the antenna lead directly to the TV for analog reception.
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Old 16-Oct-2013, 9:35 PM   #14
teleview
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Pratical and Useful Information.

When making the tvfool radar plot and channel list report use the Exact address to make a accurate report.
A accurate report is important.
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Old 16-Oct-2013, 11:12 PM   #15
PJ_WI
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StephanieS View Post
100' and 200' appear to be different zip codes. One being 54550 and the other 53550.

What got my attention was WGN, lol. I was like wait, that's not even listed on your 100' plot.

Is the 54550 the right zip code? If so, I ran a 100' generic zip code search and this is what it yielded:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...46aee7c1bb6e23

Granted it, it's not tailored to your address, but the signals at magnetic 289 are now above zero, which is greatly more doable for reception than double digit negative #'s. You may want to rerun your information at 100' and share it.
Sorry, you are correct [54550] I was in a hurry. The explains all the channels.

Thanks,
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Old 17-Oct-2013, 12:05 AM   #16
PJ_WI
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Channel 17:
8ft -9.1
35ft -11.4
40ft -11.2
100ft -8.5

New goal cleanup 8 10 and 36, also pickup the FOX analog rebroadcast of 32.
#1? The current antenna is not good for UHF (14-69). It also maybe 40 years old.
#2? Should I add a rotor?
#3? Why does the 8' antenna ht provide better values.
#4? Keep current antenna and add UHF specific?

8ft
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...46ae25ad6f9560

30ft
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...46ae051ac1df11

35ft
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...46aea5964ced9e

40ft
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...46ae05d7bf4807

100ft
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...46aeecc006f7d1


Thanks,
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Old 17-Oct-2013, 2:28 AM   #17
teleview
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Practical and Useful Information.

As the Tv transmissions , channels/frequencies , travel across tops of hills and mountains , and Long lengths of miles and miles of ground , some not all , the signal/signals are bent downward because of the attraction of the ground and magnetic field of planet.

At different antenna heights channels/frequencies are effected differently , some are stronger and some are weaker.

So some Tv channels can be stronger a few inches to a few feet above ground.

The effect is known as ground wave reception and in some cases reliable reception does happen.

To take advantage of the effect at lower antenna heights it is also nessesary to also take into account obstructions such as buildings and trees and other obstructions that will negate the gain of signal strength.

Even so , here the Clear Truth , Ground Wave Reception Of Tv Transmissions is/are 100% Experimental.

Last edited by teleview; 17-Oct-2013 at 5:36 AM. Reason: Clarify information and typos.
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Old 17-Oct-2013, 2:54 AM   #18
GroundUrMast
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Quote:
New goal cleanup 8 10 and 36, also pickup the FOX analog rebroadcast of 32.
#1? The current antenna is not good for UHF (14-69). It also maybe 40 years old.
#2? Should I add a rotor?
#3? Why does the 8' antenna ht provide better values.
#4? Keep current antenna and add UHF specific?
You need to avoid the trees, whether by going over, around or putting them in the fireplace. If you can't do that, this is a futile effort.

You've seen what the existing antenna does with 8 & 10 already, which leads to questions #1 & #4 - It's clear from the photo that the antenna is a VHF only design, it never was intended to receive UHF frequencies. It's bent to the point of needing to be replaced. The Y10713 is the best option in a cut for band H-VHF antenna that covers those two channels.

A DB8e is not overkill when aiming for WLEF to the south. It may produce a viewable signal from CH-32 when aimed at CH-36.

#2 - A rotator would be helpful when trying to fine tune exact aim point. Given the intention of serving only one TV, It may prove helpful if you want to optimize the reception of CH-32 & CH-36.

#3 - The Longley-Rice model used by TV Fool is known to exhibit this type of behavior. Sometimes the estimate produced is quite accurate, though in other cases, the axiom 'your mileage may vary' is quite apropos.
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If the well is dry and you don't see rain on the horizon, you'll need to dig the hole deeper. (If the antenna can't get the job done, an amp won't fix it.)

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Old 18-Oct-2013, 1:03 AM   #19
PJ_WI
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Originally Posted by GroundUrMast View Post
You need to avoid the trees, whether by going over, around or putting them in the fireplace. If you can't do that, this is a futile effort.

You've seen what the existing antenna does with 8 & 10 already, which leads to questions #1 & #4 - It's clear from the photo that the antenna is a VHF only design, it never was intended to receive UHF frequencies. It's bent to the point of needing to be replaced. The Y10713 is the best option in a cut for band H-VHF antenna that covers those two channels.

A DB8e is not overkill when aiming for WLEF to the south. It may produce a viewable signal from CH-32 when aimed at CH-36.

#2 - A rotator would be helpful when trying to fine tune exact aim point. Given the intention of serving only one TV, It may prove helpful if you want to optimize the reception of CH-32 & CH-36.

#3 - The Longley-Rice model used by TV Fool is known to exhibit this type of behavior. Sometimes the estimate produced is quite accurate, though in other cases, the axiom 'your mileage may vary' is quite apropos.
I talked with my uncle last night and he said the antenna could easily be over 50 years old.

Thanks,
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