Odd thing has happened twice . . .

[Dagwood]

Originally Posted by rabbit73

Hello again, Dagwood

Sorry you are having more trouble. Those two channels are very weak; it doesn't take much to knock them out.

You told us about your power inserter, but you didn't tell us what model of preamp you have.

You also didn't tell us what antenna you have. If you don't know the make and model, can you show us a photo of your antenna?

One thing might be different now: The trees might be thicker and taller now, so even if the leaves have fallen, the signals might be having a harder time now getting through.

If your antenna is made by Winegard, this video will show you how to check the CB8269 balun /combiner:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlQk...ule1MX8jCAfvPQ

You have checked the voltage coming out of the power inserter, but you haven't checked the voltage to the preamp at the upper end of the coax that connects to the preamp.

And you haven't checked the voltage to the preamp at the upper end of the coax when it is connected to the preamp. This is harder, because when you check the voltage to the preamp near the preamp when it is connected, you need access to the center conductor. I use a T-adapter for that:

This is for an RCA preamp, but the method is the same:

Thanks for the reply, Rabbit. I think everything I have from the power supply to the antenna is Wineguard.

I checked the voltage at the upper end of the coax, it shows 15.1 -- the same as it is on the lower end, indoors.

What it looks like around here . . .

Here is a view from the south, looking north towards Rochester where all the transmitters are (pik is about due north, Rochester is a bit to the west). Red arrow shows antenna which if you look carefully, you can see it is rotated a bit west:




Looking north from the roof:




Looking south:




Looking north again. As you can see, not much changes from year to year. The hill shown in the FCC diagram (that you posted in September in this thread) is about 2-3 miles north of me, nothing but woods between me and the hill.





This all looks like a Wineguard, and makes sense as everything else is too:




That checking stuff is a bit over my head. Wouldn't I be better off just buying a new preamp and taking my chances -- especially considering the two complete blackouts I've had in the past year or so?

[rabbit73]

Thanks for the excellent photos. That looks like the Winegard HD7697P or 7698P.

That checking stuff is a bit over my head. Wouldn't I be better off just buying a new preamp and taking my chances -- especially considering the two complete blackouts I've had in the past year or so?

That might be a good idea, as long as you understand that it could be something else like a bad connection in the CB-8269
cartridge housing (balun/combiner). The CB-8269 is an odd design. The forks make contact with the wires from the UHF and VHF sections in a way that doesn't look 100% reliable to me. There is a replacement available:
https://www.amazon.com/Winegard-CB-8.../dp/B003H2G5ZM

https://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=cb-8269

http://www.winegarddirect.com/viewit...(CB8269)&post=

The trees and the hill certainly could be the major problems.

[Dagwood]

Originally Posted by rabbit73

Thanks for the excellent photos. That looks like the Winegard HD7697P or 7698P.
That might be a good idea, as long as you understand that it could be something else like a bad connection in the balun/combiner.

The trees certainly could be the major problem.

Trees: I've been here for 35 years, nothing has changed. Big trees get old and die, young trees replace them -- although a photo taken 35 years ago wouldn't look much different than these photos.

Last fall was no different than the previous 34 falls, but this fall is different. Just taking the knowns and thinking logically, I would conclude that it isn't the terrain/flora (which probably hasn't changed much since the ice age) there is something not quite right with the man-made antenna system.

As for a bad connector, would that have caused the two total blackouts I've had in the past year?

If I go this way, what preamp would you recommend?

[rabbit73]

As for a bad connector, would that have caused the two total blackouts I've had in the past year?

A bad connection ANYWHERE between the antenna and the TV could do that.

Possible preamps:

Antennas Direct Juice
https://www.antennasdirect.com/store/JUICE.html

Channel Master 7777HD/Amplify (has high and low gain settings)
https://www.channelmaster.com/Amplif.../cm-7777hd.htm
on sale

[JoeAZ]

Growing up in Cheektowaga and Orchard Park, NY we were able to
receive locals plus Toronto, Hamilton, Barrie, Peterborough, London
& Kitchener in Ontario plus Erie, PA. We rarely received Rochester
even though it was much closer than many of the others. After seeing
your photos, with the trees that tall and the hill, it is surprising that
you receive anything at all. None of that explains why you are having
the recent issues and the outages. Your Winegard antenna is a very
good one but the weakest link in the design is that CB-8269 housing.
I have replaced many of those over the years that fail due to the heat
we experience here in Arizona. They usually cost around $25.00
As Rabbit indicated, Every connection is a potential source for problems.
In my head, I'm thinking that those total blackouts were caused by
shorting at one of those connections. If your cables are fairly old, like
over 10 years, you may want to replace them with new, RG6. If you
are up to it, you could replace each of the connectors yourself but be
sure to weatherproof those outdoors with good silicone sealant.

[Dagwood]

Originally Posted by JoeAZ

Growing up in Cheektowaga and Orchard Park, NY we were able to
receive locals plus Toronto, Hamilton, Barrie, Peterborough, London
& Kitchener in Ontario plus Erie, PA. We rarely received Rochester
even though it was much closer than many of the others. After seeing
your photos, with the trees that tall and the hill, it is surprising that
you receive anything at all. None of that explains why you are having
the recent issues and the outages. Your Winegard antenna is a very
good one but the weakest link in the design is that CB-8269 housing.
I have replaced many of those over the years that fail due to the heat
we experience here in Arizona. They usually cost around $25.00
As Rabbit indicated, Every connection is a potential source for problems.
In my head, I'm thinking that those total blackouts were caused by
shorting at one of those connections. If your cables are fairly old, like
over 10 years, you may want to replace them with new, RG6. If you
are up to it, you could replace each of the connectors yourself but be
sure to weatherproof those outdoors with good silicone sealant.

Thanks for the reply.

I assume you are talking about the box in my last picture? When you said "replace each of the connectors," what exactly are you referring to?

All coax was new in 2011.

[JoeAZ]

Dagwood, here is what I would do.
Check each outdoor connection. Is there any corrosion? Any rust?
If so, that could be all or part of your problem.
I would run a temporary new and VERIFIED RG6 cable directly
from the antenna to a tv. See what you get. If reception remains
poor, I'd replace the CB-8269 Winegard housing. If reception is
improved, the next thing I would do would be to replace the
cable between the antenna and the preamp. I would then run the
temporary cable from the output of the preamp to a tv. See what
happens. If reception remains about the same, you many want to
replace the preamp. It should be helping you, not keeping things
the same or worse. In essence, you will be isolating some of the
most likely OUTDOOR culprits that are likely affecting your reception.
You might try replacing each of the outdoor connectors with new ones
but you might be opening yourself up to other problems. In the last
photo, it looks like one of the lines that go into the CB-8269 connector
box might be grounding out on a rusty screw. Be sure those lines do not
touch anywhere!!!!!
Finally, please be careful on that roof.......

[OTAFAN]

You could use this to seal all your connections:

https://www.amazon.com/Universal-Ele...ords=coax+seal

I have found coax seal to be easy to apply, will last as long as you need it and is easy to remove if necessary. Also keeps moisture out and very UV resistant.

Just a suggestion. Best holiday wishes.....

[Dagwood]

Originally Posted by JoeAZ

Dagwood, here is what I would do.
Check each outdoor connection. Is there any corrosion? Any rust?
If so, that could be all or part of your problem.
I would run a temporary new and VERIFIED RG6 cable directly
from the antenna to a tv. See what you get. If reception remains
poor, I'd replace the CB-8269 Winegard housing. If reception is
improved, the next thing I would do would be to replace the
cable between the antenna and the preamp. I would then run the
temporary cable from the output of the preamp to a tv. See what
happens. If reception remains about the same, you many want to
replace the preamp. It should be helping you, not keeping things
the same or worse. In essence, you will be isolating some of the
most likely OUTDOOR culprits that are likely affecting your reception.
You might try replacing each of the outdoor connectors with new ones
but you might be opening yourself up to other problems. In the last
photo, it looks like one of the lines that go into the CB-8269 connector
box might be grounding out on a rusty screw. Be sure those lines do not
touch anywhere!!!!!
Finally, please be careful on that roof.......

UPDATE: The good news is that I didn't break a leg, nor die of exposure. The bad news is (was) that my ladder blew down about 4 this afternoon. My neighbor came home from work around 4:30, and although I can't really see their house I can see his headlights this time of year, and when he shut his lights off I started screaming like the proverbial banshee. I had been yelling "HELP" up and down the valley for a good half hour (zero traffic) and was getting a little hoarse by that time. Oh well.

They came right over and put the ladder back up. Whew. There is almost never any wind down here in this hole unless it comes from the southeast, and there must have been a big gust that blew it over. Oh well, things could have turned out much, much worse.

At any rate, I was up there cleaning my chimney and checking the antenna. TV reception has been pretty good since I posted last, but CBS would still have a little problem once in a while. FOX has been fine, and that is usually my weakest channel.

So I took that plastic housing off the antenna (after unplugging the power supply inside) and there was quite a bit cobwebs and other bug "trash" in there. I cleaned it up, and after I got back down to earth again, I plugged in the power supply and turned the TV on. Everything is okay, but it may take a few days to see if what I did is helping any with CBS.

A big thanks to all you guys for the help, and I'm probably not done yet. If everything is ok I will let it run til spring, and replace that housing then. Winter is supposed to come in with a roar in a day or two, I may not be able to get back up there til spring.

[Dagwood]

UPDATE: The weather has been pretty cold the past 2 weeks, so TV reception has been fine. But now it's been warm and cloudy, and CBS is not coming in at all tonight. (I'd noticed some slight pixelation the last day or two.)

I have never had a problem with CBS (or FOX) this time of year, even if we had a warm spell. In fact, although CBS is weak, I've never had a problem with it at any time of the year since I installed this system in 2011. So I know something is not right.

Unless someone has some quick suggestions, I'm thinking of hiring someone to fix it. Although the preamp voltages have checked out well, could there be something else wrong with it that doesn't show up with a voltage test? Should I just buy a new one? Or hire someone? TIA!

[rickbb]

"pretty cold" = dry, low or no humidity = good reception.
"warm and cloudy" = wet, humid = bad reception.

Sounds more and more like a weak corroded connection or balun somewhere. The moisture builds up and starts to short out or increasing resistance creating signal loss.

[JoeAZ]

"So I took that plastic housing off the antenna (after unplugging the power supply inside) and there was quite a bit cobwebs and other bug "trash" in there. I cleaned it up, and after I got back down to earth again, I plugged in the power supply and turned the TV on. Everything is okay, but it may take a few days to see if what I did is helping any with CBS."

I frequently run into a situation as you describe above. In addition to cleaning
out the plastic housing, I also gently run some very fine sand paper or cloth
on the contact points and antenna lines where "contact" is made. It often
makes a huge difference.
I'm inclined to agree with Rickbb. When safe to do so, check each and every
outdoor connection point.

[Dagwood]

I tried aiming it a bit each way today, but it didn't make any difference, CBS is totally dead. FOX comes in fine.

Originally Posted by rabbit73

Thanks for the excellent photos. That looks like the Winegard HD7697P or 7698P.
That might be a good idea, as long as you understand that it could be something else like a bad connection in the CB-8269
cartridge housing (balun/combiner). The CB-8269 is an odd design. The forks make contact with the wires from the UHF and VHF sections in a way that doesn't look 100% reliable to me. There is a replacement available:
https://www.amazon.com/Winegard-CB-8.../dp/B003H2G5ZM

https://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=cb-8269

http://www.winegarddirect.com/viewit...(CB8269)&post=

The trees and the hill certainly could be the major problems.

Rabbit: Is that a direct replacement for my setup, as far as you can tell by my pictures?

Originally Posted by JoeAZ

Growing up in Cheektowaga and Orchard Park, NY we were able to
receive locals plus Toronto, Hamilton, Barrie, Peterborough, London
& Kitchener in Ontario plus Erie, PA. We rarely received Rochester
even though it was much closer than many of the others. After seeing
your photos, with the trees that tall and the hill, it is surprising that
you receive anything at all. None of that explains why you are having
the recent issues and the outages. Your Winegard antenna is a very
good one but the weakest link in the design is that CB-8269 housing.
I have replaced many of those over the years that fail due to the heat
we experience here in Arizona. They usually cost around $25.00
As Rabbit indicated, Every connection is a potential source for problems.
In my head, I'm thinking that those total blackouts were caused by
shorting at one of those connections. If your cables are fairly old, like
over 10 years, you may want to replace them with new, RG6. If you
are up to it, you could replace each of the connectors yourself but be
sure to weatherproof those outdoors with good silicone sealant.

Originally Posted by JoeAZ

"So I took that plastic housing off the antenna (after unplugging the power supply inside) and there was quite a bit cobwebs and other bug "trash" in there. I cleaned it up, and after I got back down to earth again, I plugged in the power supply and turned the TV on. Everything is okay, but it may take a few days to see if what I did is helping any with CBS."

I frequently run into a situation as you describe above. In addition to cleaning
out the plastic housing, I also gently run some very fine sand paper or cloth
on the contact points and antenna lines where "contact" is made. It often
makes a huge difference.
I'm inclined to agree with Rickbb. When safe to do so, check each and every
outdoor connection point.

I re-read this thread, and from the comments made, I think I'll just order a new housing thing. For $24 delivered from Wineguard, it isn't worth my time to go up there and try to clean/test/fix the old one, which, as Rabbit noted, doesn't appear to be the best design anyway.

[JoeAZ]

That sounds like a good plan. Those lines/rods that go into the
permanently attached portion with still need to be sanded/cleaned
to maximize reception.
Finally, I'm able to stream WHEC and WHAM news from my Roku.
I'd hate to hear about someone injured or worse trying to fix an
antenna.
PLEASE LET SOMEONE KNOW YOU ARE GOING ON YOUR ROOF.
Make arrangements to call them back in a certain period of time,
otherwise, they come over to help.

[Dagwood]

Originally Posted by JoeAZ

That sounds like a good plan. Those lines/rods that go into the permanently attached portion with still need to be sanded/cleaned
to maximize reception.

Finally, I'm able to stream WHEC and WHAM news from my Roku.
I'd hate to hear about someone injured or worse trying to fix an
antenna.

PLEASE LET SOMEONE KNOW YOU ARE GOING ON YOUR ROOF.
Make arrangements to call them back in a certain period of time,
otherwise, they come over to help.

Ha, thanks Joe. Keep your eye on the news!

Some friends of mine suggested exactly what you recommended when I told them the story a couple of weeks ago. I didn't do that yesterday, but I did take my wireless land-line phone with me (no cell signal here), I tied a rope to the ladder, and had a second ladder in place in another spot.

When I got down yesterday, no CBS as I noted above. But later in the evening it came in fine (weather got colder).

I ordered a new housing from Wineguard Direct.

A big "Thanks!" to all, I will update as needed.

[Dagwood]

UPDATE:

I ordered that new housing thingy last winter. My channels were coming in fine after my last post, so the housing sat in its shipping box.

So here it is in late June and channel 8 is still coming in fine (I always lose 31 in May). As it is now, everything is normal and as expected, yet I've done nothing to the antenna, preamp, and the new housing has not been installed.

All of my equipment is the same as it was last December when 8 was giving me huge problems. So what was actually causing the reception problems, something atmospheric? (sunspots or something?)

TIA for your comments!

[JoeAZ]

Greetings Dagwood,

In retrospect, the issue with channel 8, WROC may have been
at their end. Perhaps they were running at lower power than
normal or their antenna may have needed some "tuning" to
perform at 100%. Glad you are able to enjoy CBS once again.
Enjoy your fabulous summer!

[Dagwood]

Originally Posted by JoeAZ

Greetings Dagwood,

In retrospect, the issue with channel 8, WROC may have been
at their end. Perhaps they were running at lower power than
normal or their antenna may have needed some "tuning" to
perform at 100%. Glad you are able to enjoy CBS once again.
Enjoy your fabulous summer!

Thanks for your help and comments, Joe! Hopefully the problems were just with channel 8's signal not being up to par, as you suggested.

I don't know what I would do without you knowledgeable guys here on this website. I probably would have gone up on the roof and jumped off on purpose, lol. There is no cable available here, and I don't think there is enough open area for satellite either, so OTA is all I have.





EDIT: Just for giggles, this is what it looks like around here today as contrasted to the December pictures that I posted earlier in the thread:

[rabbit73]

Thanks for the report and the photo in the summer.





Even if your antenna system is in perfect condition, I think you will continue to have problems with the trees.

Fox is your weakest signal, and their transmitting antenna has a directional pattern that doesn't send much power south; it favors east and west of Rochester.





After the FCC Repack of UHF channels, WHEC will stay on 10:
https://www.rabbitears.info/market.p...&callsign=WHEC

WHAM will move from 13 to channel 9, so you will need to rescan:
https://www.rabbitears.info/market.p...&callsign=WHAM

WXXI will move from 16 to 22:
https://www.rabbitears.info/market.p...&callsign=WXXI

WROC from 45 to 21:
https://www.rabbitears.info/market.p...&callsign=WROC

WUHF will stay on 28.
https://www.rabbitears.info/market.p...&callsign=WUHF

Transition Phase 4: Testing Begins: 6/22/2019 Phase Ends: 8/2/2019

https://www.rabbitears.info/repackch...=&lss=&status=

The only things I can think of to improve your reception would be to move your antenna higher to a location that doesn't have trees directly in front of it, or mount a smaller UHF only antenna on a tower to improve the reception of your weaker channels and combine it with your present antenna for VHF using a UVSJ UHF/VHF combiner.

Originally Posted by JoeAZ

In retrospect, the issue with channel 8, WROC may have been
at their end. Perhaps they were running at lower power than
normal or their antenna may have needed some "tuning" to
perform at 100%.

Yes, it is possible that WROC CBS, real channel 45, virtual channel 8.1, is running at reduced power for the safety of the tower workers mounting the new channel 21 antenna.

[Dagwood]

Originally Posted by rabbit73

Thanks for the report and the photo in the summer.

Fox is your weakest signal, and their transmitting antenna has a directional pattern that doesn't send much power south; it favors east and west of Rochester.

Yup, it never comes in during the summer, even 20-30 years ago when it was analog. Digital actually helped it; it stays on longer in the spring and comes back sooner in the fall. I gain maybe a month or more on each end.

Not quite getting that last image. Where is Rochester and/or the transmitter?

After the FCC Repack of UHF channels, WHEC will stay on 10:
https://www.rabbitears.info/market.p...&callsign=WHEC

WHAM will move from 13 to channel 9, so you will need to rescan:
https://www.rabbitears.info/market.p...&callsign=WHAM

WXXI will move from 16 to 22:
https://www.rabbitears.info/market.p...&callsign=WXXI

WROC from 45 to 21:
https://www.rabbitears.info/market.p...&callsign=WROC

WUHF will stay on 28.
https://www.rabbitears.info/market.p...&callsign=WUHF

This is all news to me, when is it supposed to happen?

The only things I can think of to improve your reception would be to move your antenna higher to a location that doesn't have trees directly in front of it, or mount a smaller UHF only antenna on a tower to improve the reception of your weaker channels and combine it with your present antenna for VHF using a UVSJ UHF/VHF combiner.

I'm okay with what I have, and I can live without FOX for 4 months or so every year which is the only channel I lose -- if everything is working properly. Plus I have a ROKU stick so I can get way, way more than I even want to watch.

Thanks for your comments and help!