The Grand Plan needs help

[LOTL]

Hi All,
Thought this would be a good place to start before embarking on my quest to abandon Comcast cable.
We live in a 3 story home that we hope to sell within the next 2-3 years (depending on where housing prices go).

We have the 3rd floor closed down and i was thinking of placing the antenna i get, up in which ever room provides the best reception.
I know an outdoor mount may be inevitable, so im open to that as well.

I was thinking of using the Coax that is already run to the 2 rooms for the Antenna feed back to my Homerun HDHR3-US tuner. I believe the coax is RG-59 and i suspect not of the greatest quality.
Is RG-6 preferred? Should i just run a new cable and if so any recommendations on cable. RG-6 seems to be the way to go, is shielding critical? Quad shield seems to be more a buzz word, is it necessary?

Heres my TV Fool report:
The Grand Plan report (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d0b86350037ddf8)

I may have asked too my questions here, but my main one is what antenna you folks might recommend. I appreciate any input.

[GroundUrMast]

I also run SiliconDust products in my home network. http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=820

It looks as if your hope of mounting the antenna(s) indoors has a fairly good chance for success, the signal levels available to you are actually very good for the most part.

I would suggest using an Antennas Direct DB-4e facing SE. This antenna is reasonably compact but it out performs similar 4-bay panel antenna designs. Like other UHF only antennas, it lacks coverage of VHF channels (real channels 2 through 13). From indoors, that would only impact your ability to receive WMUR, but WCVB is an ABC affiliate that will be easy to get.

Try the existing coax. Quad Shield is not needed for OTA applications (though it will work fine).

If you want to consider reception of some of the weaker signals to the NE, Multiple HDHR's can be used to terminate multiple antennas.

[Electron]

WMUR 9 ABC is to the north east , so no need to receive with the DB4e. WCVB 20 is to the south east will be received buy the DB4e. Aim the DB4e at about 145 degree magnetic compass. Here is how to aim antennas , http://www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html. All of the receivable digital Tv stations/channels to the south - south east are UHF channels , so the DB4e , http://www.antennasdirect.com , will do a real fine job. As far quad coax goes . "quad" "quad coax" "quad shield" have become buzz words , it sounds cool and impressive to say. Yes quad shield does have uses as an example, at high interference locations and situations. Satellite system dealers/installers are using more quad shield because of the ever increasing amounts of wireless devices that use the frequencies that are used to transfer signals on the coax from the dish to the receiver.

[LOTL]

Thanks Guys,
The DB4e looks to be pretty affordable. I see that it also comes bundled with a J mount and even with an amplifier. I take it since neither of you mentioned the use of an amplifier or pre-amp, then i should be all set without one for now.

If i choose to just lean it against the wall and it does well, then i can probably just whip up some inexpensive Rigid EMT Pipe mount or something similar, just to allow easy rotational movement.

Would i need to take into consideration the elevation or angle of the antenna or does that only pertain to Satellite dish placement?

Dont Multi-Directional antennas have less range than directional antennas and arent they subject to more interference?

Im assuming a Directional antenna would require the need for a rotor of some kind to get the best signal from some of the stations. I take it that seeing as how the azimuth of a lot of the stations are around 117 degrees, that i wouldnt have to move it much. This is all new to me and im learning as i go.

Electron, why 145 degrees?

GroundUrMast, great thread on the Homerun stuff. I see your running the same HRHD3 that im looking at. Is it still working well for you with the exception of only the one input?

I like what one of the other guys suggested about locating the HDHR3 near the Antenna and make a CAT5 run down to the router.
Has me rethinking the cabling of things. Although if the older Coax thats in the walls does the trick, then there's no reason to snake a CAT5 run down 3 floors in a very inaccessible house.

Not to dilute this thread, but i have been running XBMC as my media center software and have looked into various backends to do the DVR stuff. XBMC's DVR support requires a few hoop jumps and i may just go with NextPVR or maybe MediaPortal. I tried Win7 Media Center, but it choked when i added my 113 movie library plus TV show collection to it. Could just be a glitch with my Quad-core I7 system, but i doubt it ;)

[MisterMe]

...

Would i need to take into consideration the elevation or angle of the antenna or does that only pertain to Satellite dish placement?Don't overthink this. Electron has given you excellent advice. The parabolic reflecting dish for a satellite antenna is required because it is designed to receive extremely weak signals. You can receive most of your Boston stations with a set of rabbit ears and a UHF loop.

Dont Multi-Directional antennas have less range than directional antennas and arent they subject to more interference?Yes. However, this is an issue with weak signals. Electron has recommended antennas that are more than up to the task of providing stable signals to your TV.

Im assuming a Directional antenna would require the need for a rotor of some kind to get the best signal from some of the stations. I take it that seeing as how the azimuth of a lot of the stations are around 117 degrees, that i wouldnt have to move it much. This is all new to me and im learning as i go.

Electron, why 145 degrees?The 145° direction is a good compromise direction that will ensure that you receive ample signal strength from Boston while allowing you to receive weaker signals from New Hampshire.

[Electron]

The half power forward beam width of the antenna is 60 degrees , thats the angle to the left and right of the front of the antenna , a 60 degree spread to the left and right. The angle of the tv stations is 65 degree , About 145 degree antenna aiming puts the antenna about in the middle between , WHDN 120 degrees and WUNI 185 degrees. . As all ways the antenna is turned to the left and right as a final adjustment to find the best position to get the best signals of the tv stations that one will like to receive. Mister Me means well and he is doing his best help.

[Electron]

An antenna mount like this , as an Example , http://www.ronard.com/909911.html , makes a great stand. Does Not need to be bolted the floor in side of a room. Also it will help reception if the antenna is placed at a window that does not have a real metal screen or metalized film and the direction of the window is south east or something close to south east.

[Electron]

A tripod stand will make it easy to pick up the antenna and tripod and aim the antenna to the north east to check out reception of the tv stations of that direction.

[Electron]

Mister Me is very preseptive he looks at letters of the alphabet the word structure and usage of words of the question askers and reaches out across the internet to understand what the question asker is really saying. When I recommended the DB4e , I recommended only the DB4e. The amplifier that comes in the bundle is the PA-18 preamp that is used when the very strongest signal is -> weak and the rest are even weaker. Your strongest signals are just enough that the PA-18 might overload and be the cause of bad or no reception of some channels. For a preamp I recommend a CPA-19 preamp it tolerates higher signal strengths and has the same gain figure. Thank you Mister Me.

[LOTL]

O.K. here is another what if. As i mentioned in my first post, we plan on selling this house and moving up to my house when it sells.
My property has very tall pine trees on either side. I have seen neighbors locate their satellite dishes away from tree coverage and run coax back to their house. (would be about a 100' run in my case)
I suspect that would be something i might have to do to get adequate reception (if in fact that direction is where the antenna needs to be pointed)
Heres my TVFool report for that location:
The other house (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d0b86d97a1a0cad)

Would the DB4e still be the antenna of choice for that location with the possible use of a pre-amp? Or should i just worry about my present location and revisit the issue 2-3 years from now?

Thanks for the link to the tripod, i looked at a stand on Antenna Directs website and i believe it has the same dimensions as some of my speaker stands i use for DJ'ing. I have a couple old stands that i dont use anymore and it looks like one of them would do the trick.

[Electron]

At the new location the same tv stations will be received , however the Tv transmissions to the south east and north east are A Lot Weaker. Make two more radar plots with the antenna at 40 feet and 60 feet.

[LOTL]

Other House 40' (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d0b8609834c4ea8)

Other House 60' (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d0b8663c4beafcf)

[Electron]

Ok it is fun to play 'what if' here at tvfool. If the Tv stations/channels stay the same in the future , all UHF digital channels , 14 thru 51 UHF , to the south east. Then use the same DB4e UHF antenna pointed at about 145 degree magnetic compass. Use a Channel Master CM7777 preamp with the DB4e antenna connected to the UHF input of the CM7777. Also there is digital Tv station that is just on positive side of the edge of being able to receive , WVBK-CA digital 2 in the VHF low band of channels 2 thru 6. The programing is , http://www.wvbktv.com , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WVBK , The Outdoor Channel. . Install and connect a Winegard HD5030 channels 2 thru 13 antenna and connect to the VHF input of the CM7777 preamplifier. . If WVBK is not received then the HD5030 antenna can be turned to receive WMUR-TV 9 ABC at about 58 degree magnetic compass. The antennas will be mounted no lower then 40 feet above the ground. And if need to go higher then that is Ok. The Tv transmissions will get stronger if need to get above trees. Trees in full leaf do a good job of absorbing UHF transmissions. Here are some places to buy antennas and etc. http://www.winegarddirect.com , http://www.channelmasterstore.com , http://www.solidsignal.com , http://www.amazon.com http://www.starkelectronic.com , http://www.3starinc.com. Here are some Strong and Sturdy antenna mounts , http://www.ronard.com/909911.html , http://www.ronard.com/34424560.html , http://www.ronard.com/ychim.html , http://www.ronard.com.

[LOTL]

Thanks Electron for all your help. The DB4e is on order along with my Homerun HDHR-3. Let the fun (and hopefully the savings) begin!

I notice a lot of people dont post back their results after getting recommendations from here. Ill be sure to let you all know how the Grand Plan works out.

[LOTL]

Well i got around to hooking up the DB4e today. I hooked it up without the Homerun box for now.

I have a newer TV which can tune OTA channels. So my connections are as follows.
DB4e Antenna > 15' RG6 to 3rd Floor Wall Jack > RG59 from 3rd Floor wall jack down to Basement > RG59 connects to 4 way Antronics 5-1000mhz splitter (all 4 outputs are -7.5db) > Out of Splitter directly to TV is a run of 50' RG6.

My signal meter on the Samsung TV, shows 4-5 bars out of 10. There is an LNA option which is described as "Amplifies the Signal Strength for the current channel" when turned off, my signal strength drops to 1 bar.

Im considering running out to Lowes and picking up a Coax coupler. Bypass the splitter and see if it helps.

Antenna placement is very touchy and im fortunate enough to have a south facing window at which its mostly pointed at. I had my girlfriend on the phone as i adjusted the antenna position to optimize signal strength.

In the direction that the antenna is facing and about 200-300' away are some high pine trees. Im tuning in about 12 stations, but some are the same station with alternative programming. Im not able to get Fox or Channel 7. Without these, the project may be dead in the water. Its unfortunate as the channels that do come in, come in well and are every bit as good as cable.

Ill run out now to grab the coupler and see what improvement there is. The next step if there is no improvement, is to replace the RG59 with RG6 or a run of CAT6 cable. I have also been looking at MOCA adapters, but id still have to use the RG59 and i dont know if ill see much of an improvement in signal strength.

Im open to suggestions. Ill post back how the coupler works.

[Electron]

REMOVE the Splitter. . A way to 'Prove Out' reception is to run a known to be good RG-6 coax Direct from the antenna DIRECT to the Tv , No couplers , No splitters , No nothing. One length of coax Direct from the Antenna to the Tv. If there is RG-59 coax in the walls then it has been there for a Long Time. RG-6 will transfer the signal any where through out the house. You can also move the Tv close to the antenna as a test.

[Electron]

You can also use a Antennas Direct CPA-19 preamp at the antenna. However DO NOT and I Repeat , DO NOT use the preamp as a way to try and make up for bad RG-59 coax.

[LOTL]

Thanks again Electron.
I just installed the coupler and my signal strength went to a constant 7 out of 10.

I rescanned my stations and im now getting 16 stations which include Fox and channel 7.

I also picked up another 4 way splitter. It doesnt say what the Insertion Loss is other than "Low Insertion Loss" on the back of the package.
Ideal 4-Way Splitter (http://www.idealindustries.com/prodDetail.do?prodId=85-334&div=2&l1=splitters&l2=satellite_dig_tv_splitters&l3=85-334)
I havent put it in yet, as the other rooms that the splitter fed aren't used.

Ill try bringing one of the tube TV's we have laying around upstairs and connect the antenna directly to it and see what it does.

[GroundUrMast]

Your plan of connecting the antenna directly to one tuner is a good one. If it's not too much trouble, I would carry the TV up to the third floor, close to the antenna. The idea is to determine the quality of the signal at the output of the antenna, before any old coax, amplifier noise or splitter loss complicates the situation.

If you have a good signal at the antenna, then you can expect to find a reliable solution for distributing the signal.

An amplifier can only use the signal available at it's input. So, an amplifier at the end of the line is at a disadvantage compared to one close to the source. The CPA-19 suggested earlier is definitely worth consideration if you need to overcome cable and splitter losses.

But again, be sure you have a usable signal at the antenna before you add other factors.

The idea of using Ethernet over coax adapters is very viable. I would add that complexity only after I had the basic antenna and distribution system running reliably.

Also, be on the lookout for loose or otherwise faulty connections on the old coax... those old crimp connectors were a constant source of trouble, even when assembled using pro-grade tools.

[LOTL]

Well the older tube TV i brought upstairs evidently doesn't have a QAM tuner (QAM was the wrong term to use, thanks Electron for the correction). It wouldn't display any channels.
To have to carry my 50" Samsung DLP up 3 flights for the purpose of this test, has me thinking i have already gotten the stations i was hoping for and that i should be happy with that.
I guess if i want to distribute the signal to the other unused rooms at some point, then ill have to try the splitter i picked up or another option.

Im sure i wont leave things as is and ill wait for my girlfriends son to get home and have him help me carry the TV upstairs. Stay tuned...

[Electron]

It is not QAM , QAM is Quaduature Amplitude Modulation , QAM is cable Tv signals/channels . . Digital Broadcast Tv is ATSC = Advanced Television System Committee . I am not getting on you in any way shape or form. It is that people read these forum posts and this is one of the many ways that misinformation get's spread around. People read and say , O , QAM is broadcast tv And It Is Not.

[Electron]

Here are digital converters that will convert the digital broadcast Tv transmissions to Analog to receive on the old Analog broadcast Tv receivers. The old Analog Tv receiver will show the best picture you have ever seen because the converter will feed a close to perfect analog signal to the Tv. . Channel Masters newest digital receiver is DVR with 2 digital tuners and has Many inputs and outputs. http://www.channelmasterstore.com

[LOTL]

Sorry for the misinformation and thank you for the correction. I edited my post to let people know QAM was the wrong term to use.
Weren't the cable company's supposed to provide the digital converters for free? I dont need the DVR capability and instead of spending any more money on a converter, ill drag the 50 incher upstairs and see if there's an improvement in signal strength.

[Electron]

You are not receiving cable tv. You are receiving OTA = Over The Air , Broadcast Television. If you are referring to the converter box $40.00 coupon program , that was our tax dollars funding the program , that program came and went a long time ago. It was advertised , Constantly and Loudly , In Your Face kind of advertising about the beginning and ending of the program. Many people sent for and received there coupons and used them before the dead line date.

[Electron]

Yes you can use a CPA-19 preamp to provide a stronger signal to the Tv/s. For your reception situation with the antenna inside the house. The antenna is right there so put the CPA-19 preamp and the power supply for the preamp right there close to the antenna.

[LOTL]

Yes you can use a CPA-19 preamp to provide a stronger signal to the Tv/s. For your reception situation with the antenna inside the house. The antenna is right there so put the CPA-19 preamp and the power supply for the preamp right there close to the antenna.
So if bringing my TV upstairs doesnt increase my signal strength, then the issue isnt the RG59 cable and you would recommend the CPA-19?

I guess the only other thing worth trying is moving the DB4e outside and up higher correct?
I think for the cost of the CPA-19, it might be the way to go vs the cost of moving the DB4e outside.

[Electron]

Yes use the CPA-19 preamp. it will give a stronger signal to the one Tv and will be needed for , 2 , 3 or 4 Tv's.

[MisterMe]

...

Weren't the cable company's supposed to provide the digital converters for free? I dont need the DVR capability and instead of spending any more money on a converter, ill drag the 50 incher upstairs and see if there's an improvement in signal strength.Cable companies did distribute digital converters for their customers who needed them. However, you may be confusing two completely unrelated issues:

Full-power OTA TV stations in the USA were required to switch to digital broadcasts in 2009. Viewers with analog TVs could use a converter to receive these broadcasts OTA and view them on their old TV sets. The Government provided two coupons for each household that could, in principle, pay for two converters. Viewers who received their programming via cable were assured that they did not need to worry. Their cable company would maintain analog versions of their programming that their old TVs would continue to receive as though nothing happened.
Rarely reported is supposed to be a digital transition for cable in the USA. In 2009, I read that the digital cable transition was scheduled for 2012.* My cable company went through that transition in 2011. All programming, including all standard resolution programming, has been switched to QAM and given virtual cable channel numbers that mirror the old NTSC analog cable channels. For example, QAM Channel 12 is displayed as "12" and not "12.0" or "12.1." For subscribers who do not have QAM-compatible TV sets, a converter box is required. The cable company provides converter boxes for subscribers who need them.

Make no mistake. The OTA converter box converts ATSC digital signals to NTSC analog signals. It cannot be used on cable. The cable converter box converts QAM digital signals to NTSC analog signals. It cannot be used for OTA stations.

*The cable transition is not mandated by the FCC. It is a business decision made by the cable companies.

[Electron]

Mister Me is getting better and better , getting very precise at explaining the many different situations of Tv reception. And is explaining in a way that is to the point and leaves no loop holes to get tangled in. . I like the wording , Make no mistake. And then straight to the point.

[LOTL]

Thanks MisterMe for all the info.
Another question for you guys.
My signal strength is all over the place. Ill check it one time and its at 3, another time and its at 4 or 5 and this morning it was at 8!
This morning i rescanned the channels when it was at 8 and for a couple hours i was channel surfing through the 16 channels it tuned.

Tonight signal strength is down to 3 and i lost some of the channels and im getting pixelation and drop outs on others.

Had a busy day yesterday and havent had the chance to drag my TV upstairs. Im curious as to why the signal strength will hold solid for a extended period of time at a particular level and then drop off or increase at other times.
Weather has been clear and cold here, so i dont think thats a factor.

I have the pre-amp on order and hope to have it by end of week.
I suppose my issue could still be with the old RG59 run and possibly the crimped connections i made with the RG6 run from the basement to the TV. Although the RG6 connection worked fine when hooked up to Comcast cable.

I guess i need to get that TV upstairs to rule out the cable being an issue.

[MisterMe]

... Im curious as to why the signal strength will hold solid for a extended period of time at a particular level and then drop off or increase at other times.
Weather has been clear and cold here, so i dont think thats a factor.

...To the contrary, clear cold weather can be very much a factor. There is an atmospheric condition known as tropospheric ducting. That's what the Tropo means in your TV Fool Radar report. It is associated with high pressure systems and the still cold dry air that accompany high pressure systems. Normally, TV signals propagate just over the horizon. Tropospheric ducting allows signals to propagate up to hundreds of miles. This may or may not be a good thing. If it allows you to receive RF Channel 15 from 200 miles away, then it may a good thing. If it allows RF Channel 15 from 200 miles away to interfere with your local RF Channel 15, then it is a bad thing.

Here is the deal. My RF Channel 15s are mythical. Your TV Fool Radar plot indicates that you live in a poor reception area with many weak signals. You have multiple instances of local stations that use the same RF channel as stations about 100 miles away--or less. WMUR/ABC (RF-9) uses the same RF channel as WEDN/PBS. WCVB/ABC (RF-20) uses the same RF channel as WCCT/CW. WHDH/NBC (RF-42) uses the same RF channel as WSAH/MeTV. These are just three examples in your TVFR plot. Each of these stations may be received on a regular basis with a deep fringe VHF/UHF antenna. This phenomenon is not restricted to stations in your TVFR plot. What is more, tropospheric ducting is just one of several atmospheric anomalies that may allow you to receive distant stations. And remember, if you can receive the signal, then the signal may also interfere with another signal that you prefer.

[LOTL]

I got a lot more than i bargained for when i came here for an antenna recommendation. (thats a real good thing)

You guys are going to love this. This morning i turned the TV on and checked my signal strength. Well it was down to 3 on 7-1WHDH and up to 10 on 4-1WBZ, 7 on 5-1WCVB. So you get the picture. I had never used an OTA antenna on this TV (or any other) and never had the need to check antenna strength. I thought the signal strength was the overall strength of the connection between the antenna and the TV and not of each individual station.:rolleyes:

So with that said, i have still lost some of the stations that i tuned in yesterday, but that could just be the fringe stations. Once again the newbie shows his newbieness ;)

[Electron]

So what channels are being received all the time. You can list them like this , WBZ-TV real channel 30 , virtual channel (4.1) CBS.

[Electron]

The signal strength at the Tv is the signal strength at the antenna minus some loss through the coax and minus some loss if there is a splitter , the more output ports the splitter has the more the signal will be reduced.

[LOTL]

So what channels are being received all the time. You can list them like this , WBZ-TV real channel 30 , virtual channel (4.1) CBS.
I just got finished moving the TV up to the 3rd floor. Connected it directly to the DB4e with the 15' run of RG6.
I rescanned all of the OTA channels and here is what i got.
3rd Floor Data w/TV Connected directly to Antenna
RC=Real Channel V=Virtual SS=Signal Strength
WGBH-DT RC-19 V2-1 SS:9
WGBH-DT2 RC-(not on chart) V2-2 SS:9
WBZ-TV RC-30 V4-1 SS:9-10
WCVB-DT RC-20 V5-1 SS:10
WHDH-TV RC-42 V7.1 SS:2-3
WHDH-DT2 RC-(not on chart) V7.2 SS:2-3
WFXT-DT RC-31 V25.1 SS:6
WSBK-DT RC-39 V38.1 SS:5-6
WGBX-DT RC-43 V44.1 SS:5
WGBX-DT2 RC-(not on chart) V44.2 SS:5
WGBX-DT3 RC-(not on chart) V44.3 SS:5
WGBX-DT4 RC-(not on chart) V44.4 SS:5
WMFP-DT RC-18 V62.1 SS:9
WMFP-DT2 RC(not on chart) V62.2 SS:9
WUTF-DT RC-27 V66.1 SS:6
WBPX-DT RC-32 V68.1 SS:3
WBPX-DT2 RC-(not on chart) V68.2 SS:3
WBPX-DT3 RC-(not on chart) V68.3 SS:3

Downstairs Data
WGBH-DT RC-19 V2-1 SS:8
WGBH-DT2 RC-(not on chart) V2-2 SS:8
WBZ-TV RC-30 V4-1 SS:8
WCVB-DT RC-20 V5-1 SS:8-9
WHDH-TV RC-42 V7.1 SS:2-3
WHDH-DT2 RC-(not on chart) V7.2 SS:2-3
WFXT-DT RC-31 V25.1 SS:2
WSBK-DT RC-39 V38.1 SS:2-3
WGBX-DT RC-43 V44.1 SS:4
WGBX-DT2 RC-(not on chart) V44.2 SS:4
WGBX-DT3 RC-(not on chart) V44.3 SS:4
WGBX-DT4 RC-(not on chart) V44.4 SS:4
WMFP-DT RC-18 V62.1 SS:7
WMFP-DT2 RC(not on chart) V62.2 SS:7
WUTF-DT RC-27 V66.1 SS:0-1


The signal strength at the Tv is the signal strength at the antenna minus some loss through the coax and minus some loss if there is a splitter , the more output ports the splitter has the more the signal will be reduced.
I think i may not have made myself clear when i made that 5 A.M. post this morning. I didnt realize that each station would give me a different signal strength. I was thinking i was looking at the strength of my connection from the antenna to my TV. I know it sounds extremely stupid that i made that assumption and thats why i mentioned the newbie comment. I now realize that each station that i tune will give me a different signal strength. Im really not a stupid man and had this idea stuck in my head and was blinded by my inexperience.

[LOTL]

Edited above post to include Downstairs Data.