Trying to get WTOL in Toldedo From Warren,MI

[dexxa]

I'm trying to get WTOL from Warren, Mi it looks like its only 57miles south of me? i have a 7inch portable tv i took out in an open field and tried it with a vhf antenna small one but still didn't receive it? Any Idea?



http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=80&q=call%3dwtol

[StephanieS]

Hi Dexxa,

We'll be happy to check it out for you and give a thought or two as to what your options are.

First though, could you run your radar plot at:

http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29

Then post your results for us to see. The more details and information we have about your location and how you wish to set things up, the more help and advice we can give.

:)
SS

[dexxa]

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46ae1cb4b46e9d

[StephanieS]

Dexxa,

Thanks. That is more helpful. You might want to run it with your specific address so the detail is a little stronger. Currently, your radar plot only provides for reception at your block level. However, it does give me baseline to work with.

First comment, lovely tvfool report. You ought to have many reliable signals.

As to WTOL CBS on RF 11, a small VHF antenna isn't going to be the correct application. WTOL is in the weak category and requires a larger, high gain VHF antenna to be received.

I would be inclined to suggest a Antennacraft Y5-7-13 dedicated H-VHF beam mounted on your roof pointed at magnetic 203 for reception of WTOL.

Thus this would be a two antenna set up complimented by an RCA ANT751 for local signals pointed at about magnetic 200. I wouldn't try to do a one all antenna solution here because of the diversity of signal strengths. When we try for weaker signals, many of us use specific antennas for them. If signals are strong, we let one antenna handle most of those if we can.

Your trick pointing the Y5-7-13 is that you have strong signals off to each side. That said, via the Y5-7-13, you may also see ABC WTVG as well. Due to those mentiond strong signals, you may not be able to run a preamp.

Do you have a set up currently or are you building from scratch?

[dexxa]

I did put in my address but this is what i got back "WARNING: Address was only resolved to block level and might not be that close to your actual location. For more accurate results, try entering a specific address or coordinates."

[GroundUrMast]

When generating a TV Fool report, my preferred method is to open the Interactive TV Maps (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=90) tool. Leave the 'input method' set to the default, 'address'. Then, enter only the Postal Code, and then click the 'Map This' button.

At this point you should have a map displayed, with a movable cursor located at the center of the Postal Code that was entered. Use your mouse to drag the cursor to the exact location you're interested in. In the upper right corner of the map you can select fview types, I find it helpful to use both.

At the bottom of the map, enter the antenna height. Please use the highest value that you can safely consider installing. If you aren't sure, then use 25'. FWIW, You can also find the LAT/LON coordinates of the cursor (in decimal form, not deg/min/sec).

Once the cursor location and the antenna height are set correctly, click on the 'Make Radar Plot' button located at the upper right corner of the map. The TV Fool report opens in a new tab or window. You can then copy the URL from the address bar of your browser, for posting to a thread.

I hope this helps, I just want to be sure we give you advise based on the actual conditions at your location. :)

[dexxa]

Ok, I did the radar plot

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46ae63af34aa71

[GroundUrMast]

I would be inclined to use an ANT-751 pointed toward the west... For reception of most of the available signals.

To get WTOL reliably, I'd go to the Antennacraft Y10713 and then use this technique: http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=2882

If you locate a preamp (such as the RCA TVPRAMP1R) at the antenna, you may find the UHF capability of the Y10713 is fair or even good. A preamp will isolate the antenna from the coax run, thus reducing some of the negative effects of poor SWR in the UHF band. Regardless of whether you receive UHF 40 or 47 with this technique, I think you'll benefit from the preamp when tuned to WTOL.

[dexxa]

I picked up the Antennacraft Y5-7-13 dedicated H-VHF beam antenna still with no luck i pointed it at 203 degrees Also scanned for digital channels and also hit 11.0 for WTOL and just fuzzy... Also turned the antenna by hand to see if i could get it.. NO LUCK!

[GroundUrMast]

Few tuners provide for direct entry of a channel. Unless your TV instruction manual indicates otherwise, you can assume that you must scan to add a channel.

Consider doing a double scan: http://www.sbgi.net/template/shared_content/dtv/FCC_Rescan_Notice.pdf

I would have chosen the Y10713... Experiment with alternate mounting locations and heights.

[StephanieS]

What is your set up? Do you have a preamp on the mast? Are you splitting your coax to multiple TVs? What is the length of coax run? Does your TV have a menu that you can manually enter the channel then choose "signal strength" to see at what level RF 11 is being received?

Did you attempt this from your roof? Is the antenna free and clear of obstructions at magnetic 203?

If your TV has a menu feature that you can "see" signal strength, that'd be helpful.

You may need to test a couple alternate locations. "Dead spots" aren't uncommon and moving antenna locations in some cases a few inches to a few feet can yield great improvements in reliability.

The more info we have, the more we can figure it out. First step is if there is a signal on RF 11 with the Y5-7-13 and at what level.

Edit: A further idea, with the Y5-7-13 pointed at magnetic 203, test reception at night. Often during daylight hours due to atmospheric conditions weaker signals can fall below reception threshold.






I picked up the Antennacraft Y5-7-13 dedicated H-VHF beam antenna still with no luck i pointed it at 203 degrees Also scanned for digital channels and also hit 11.0 for WTOL and just fuzzy... Also turned the antenna by hand to see if i could get it.. NO LUCK!

[dexxa]

No preamp installed pointed the antenna at 203 magnetic and NO mutiple tv setup yet. just pointing at WTOL location my rca 7inch tv has signal meter and i am able to tune to channel 11 but snowy so i turned the antenna little back and forth to see if i was able to get it..but nothing... Also antenna is on top of roof about 20ft high Also tested it at night to see NOTHING! I am running cable 50ft and also went over to a field near me open space nothing around and still not a damn thing spent all day on this project.

[teleview]

Fuzzy and snowy are words that describe Analog Tv reception.

------

Here is how to aim antennas, www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html

Use a Real and Actual magnetic compass to aim antenna.

------

Digital Broadcast Tv tuners can develop - Digital Glitches - that are not cleared out with simple channel scans.

To clear tuner do Double Rescan.

www.wchstv.com/DoubleReScanAlert.pdf

[GroundUrMast]

Presuming the 7" RCA TV is equipped with a digital tuner, I have to presume you will need to perform a channel scan each time you reposition the antenna. However, it's best that you check the manual for that TV...

Most TVs with ATSC tuners will not accept direct manual tuning, or simply sweeping the horizon with the antenna... Some will accept direct entry but only through the menu (manual add mode). Again, what does the manual say?

[StephanieS]

Yes, did you do a tuner rescan?

I hear the frustration in your voice. Remember, TV antenna installs are sort of a black art. There are many variables at play, sometimes you have to work through them to find the solution you want.

An idea is that I might try another receiver other than the RCA 7". If your indoor TV is your final destination, I would conduct my testing on that TV as it's tuner is the one that will be used daily.

I am leery or recommending a preamp to you. The RCA TVPRAMP1R serves me well and has a good tolerance for strong signals. In my situation, I have 65 db signals off to my side, while you have 71 db. You are also much closer than I am to your strong signals transmitters.

I would:

A. Test on indoor TV, doing a complete digital channel rescan with only the Y5-7-13 patchd into the TV.

Do this rescan each time you fiddle with it.

B. If A unsuccessful, order and test RCA TVPRAMP1R on Y5-7-13

C. If A and B unsuccessful order Y10-7-13. Test Y10-7-13 with and without preamp to determine best reception situation.

You are seeing other signals on the Y5-7-13 yes?




No preamp installed pointed the antenna at 203 magnetic and NO mutiple tv setup yet. just pointing at WTOL location my rca 7inch tv has signal meter and i am able to tune to channel 11 but snowy so i turned the antenna little back and forth to see if i was able to get it..but nothing... Also antenna is on top of roof about 20ft high Also tested it at night to see NOTHING! I am running cable 50ft and also went over to a field near me open space nothing around and still not a damn thing spent all day on this project.

[No static at all]

I suggest going by Radio Shack & purchasing an FM trap as the next step. You have an EXTREME amount of FM energy at your location. It is likely overwhelming the tuner & preventing it from seeing the weak channel 11 signal.

The Y5-7-13 antenna may not be enough antenna either, but I would see what happens after trying the FM trap between the antenna & TV.

[dexxa]

Good News!! picking up wtvg in toledo but no WTOL keep scanning to pick it up!

[StephanieS]

This is a good sign as WTVG is 2.6 db 7 db weaker than WTOL.

Was this with the FM trap as No Static At All suggested?

Good News!! picking up wtvg in toledo but no WTOL keep scanning to pick it up!

[dexxa]

Just cam seem to get WTOL In my crossahirs.

[dexxa]

Yes I do have the radio shack FM trap on the antenna

[No static at all]

Do you happen to have a Zenith (http://www.overstock.com/Electronics/Zenith-DTT901-Digital-TV-Tuner-Converter-Box-Refurbished/4275939/product.html) or Insignia digital to analog converter box lying around? (Or maybe from one of your friends)These models can be a great diagnostic tool as they will show if any signal at all is available, even if well below the digital threshold.

Also, is the antenna above the peak of the roof? If so, how far?

[dexxa]

Wtvg is a little southwest of me, so i turned the antenna little more south becuse it seems like WTOL is south east of WTVG and scanned still nothing that's strange?

[StephanieS]

Yes, having a component ATSC tuner is advantageous to have around. I have an off brand Tivax that I have used to test reception and test if it's an internal TV tuner issue. Does the TV you are using allow manual channel input or allow for testing of signal strengths across all channels?

Being able to see if you indeed have a signal on WTOL is the next important step.

If a signal is there, but just below threshold I may consider ordering a bandpass filter. Essentially, instead of blocking FM which is what you are doing now, I'd try to knock everything down except the H-VHF frequencies.
With the bandpass, you'd be doing your best to knock down all the hash. You would likely lose all UHF and the Y5-7-13 would become exclusively for WTOL. A second antenna would have to take care of your other signals along the line of a Antennacraft HBU11 or the more expensive RCA ANT751.

If the signal isn't there, the Y10-7-13 may be your next step.

Once you establish reception, then you can finalize plans for configuration.

The bandpass would be something like this:

http://www.summitsource.com/pico-macom-channel-bandpass-filter-removes-catv-channels-other-than-specified-channel-rack-mountable-design-single-channel-band-pass-filter-with-impedance-part-ch11-p-10401.html

(others might have a better approach on this piece of equipment

Once you establish reception, a channel master join-tenna might be an option. For $3.99, this would allow you to combine two antennas into one lead.

http://www.channelmasterstore.com/JOIN_TENNA_CM_0581_p/cm-0581.htm

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=hbu11&d=antennacraft-by-radioshack-hbu11-13-element-high-band-vhf-/-uhf-outdoor-hdtv-antenna-%28hbu11%29

[dexxa]

Ok, i Received the Y10-7-13 this antenna i am receiving WTOL at 9.4db but noticed with a yagi antenna i'm not going to be able to get WTVG or Wtol at the same time. Is their something in a smaller antenna "not so directional" So i can pick up WTVG and WTOL so i wont have multiple antenna's? Since i live in a hoa condo i can go higher with my Antenna and know where the signal is im getting it right even with my roof line.. Could i go to a H-Vhf bow tie antenna smaller unit with more DB even if i add an amplifier to get more db out of it and if so.? what would you recommend?

[StephanieS]

Dexxa,

I wouldn't advise an all in one antenna in your situation. The reason being, to receive WTOL you would need an aggressive aerial along the lines of a Winegard HD 7698P. The problem is you have such strong signals in your area, a stronger, higher gain antenna would apply that gain to the strong signals as well Thus, creating a potential for overload with your reciever.

With the upgrade to the Y10-7-13 other than WTOL are you recieving all the local channels you want?

If so, a rotor might be an option and you may be able to get by without a second UHF/VHF antenna for your locals.

[dexxa]

[QUOTE=No static at all;40322]Do you happen to have a Zenith (http://www.overstock.com/Electronics/Zenith-DTT901-Digital-TV-Tuner-Converter-Box-Refurbished/4275939/product.html) or Insignia digital to analog converter box lying around? (Or maybe from one of your friends)These models can be a great diagnostic tool as they will show if any signal at all is available, even if well below the digital threshold.

Also, is the antenna above the peak of the roof? If so, how far?[/QU


The Antenna is about 2 feet above the peak of the house.

[GroundUrMast]

Could i go to a H-Vhf bow tie antenna smaller unit with more DB even if i add an amplifier to get more db out of it and if so.? what would you recommend?Which make and model of H-Vhf bow tie antenna are you thinking of? The available panel antennas that I'm familiar with offer some VHF capability are primarily UHF antennas, their VHF performance is significantly less than the Y10713 (which is the current consumer grade 'big gun' H-VHF option). (When you mention 'H-Vhf bow tie', I think of old antennas such as this huge array from the 1950's: http://file.vintageadbrowser.com/vqbf51jo58qxhb.jpg This beast was about 9' x 9' and required a 10' mast just to support it's back side. Additional mast was needed to actually put it in the air.)

No amplifier will add gain to the antenna. Amplifiers can only 'push' signal through the loss of cable and splitters on the output of the amp. (In some cases, an amplifier may help overcome some of the internal noise of a tuner.)

The Antenna is about 2 feet above the peak of the house.
I'd try higher, to see if you can make both RCH-11 and RCH-13 reliable with a single aim point.

[dexxa]

Do you happen to have a Zenith (http://www.overstock.com/Electronics/Zenith-DTT901-Digital-TV-Tuner-Converter-Box-Refurbished/4275939/product.html) or Insignia digital to analog converter box lying around? (Or maybe from one of your friends)These models can be a great diagnostic tool as they will show if any signal at all is available, even if well below the digital threshold.

Also, is the antenna above the peak of the roof? If so, how far?

I happen to have a senith converter box.. so i hooked it up and channel 11.1 is in the "week" category so i tried tuning it with antenna it come up saying WTOL but week cant seem to get it into good section?

[No static at all]

I happen to have a senith converter box.. so i hooked it up and channel 11.1 is in the "week" category so i tried tuning it with antenna it come up saying WTOL but week cant seem to get it into good section?Does WTOL decode with the Zenith Converter or just show a weak signal? I thought you were receiving WTOL with your regular TV since adding the Y10-7-13 antenna? Are you still using the FM trap?