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Old 21-Jul-2010, 5:21 PM   #1
chumster
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Need antenna advice

Hi,

I put up a channel master 4228 antenna with pre-amp I had sitting around and can get only one channel WTAJ 10.1 and when I turn off the pre-amp I get nothing at all. I am using a magnavox converter box as well. My TVfool map shows other stations real close to 10.1, but I cant get them. Any suggestions would be helpful. Thanks!


http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9fbe9bdf47f62d
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Old 21-Jul-2010, 7:29 PM   #2
Billiam
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How did you install the antenna? On the roof? Are nearby structures blocking the signal? What kind of cable are you using? What kind of pre amp?
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Old 21-Jul-2010, 8:02 PM   #3
chumster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billiam View Post
How did you install the antenna? On the roof? Are nearby structures blocking the signal? What kind of cable are you using? What kind of pre amp?
Hi,

It is installed on the side of the house 20 feet above the ground and 5ft above the roof. There are no near structures. I am using the standard round cable wire I bought from a dealer. The pre-amp is a channel master the power supply says 0747. Channel 10 comes in crystal clear but nothing from the towers right near 10.
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Old 21-Jul-2010, 10:54 PM   #4
mtownsend
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My initial reaction is that the signals should be strong enough (according to your report) to be picked up easily by an outdoor 4228, and especially if there's a good pre-amp also being used.



Here are a few comments/suggestions:



1) Make sure the analyzed location is accurate for your house. Sometimes, address lookups are not all that accurate (varies from one city to the next depending on the quality of the database sources). You can check the accuracy by using the Interactive Maps tool (here). It will show a map after you enter your address and if the location is not quite right, you can drag-n-drop the pointer until it's right on top of your house. If the initial address lookup is significantly different than your true location, there might be big differences in the analysis results.

You can also play what-if games with antenna heights by changing the value in the height field (everything is automatically recomputed).



2) Pre-amps cannot be simply "turned off". If you disconnect the power supply (or unplug it), but leave the pre-amp inline, then the amp becomes a dead circuit that doesn't allow anything though. An unpowered pre-amp does NOT act like a "pass thru" device. You must physically remove the amp in order to test the antenna by itself.



3) Have you tried turning the antenna in a few different directions? By experimenting with antenna aim, you might be able to find a better "sweet spot" that picks up a cleaner signal on more of the channels.
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Old 22-Jul-2010, 12:11 AM   #5
chumster
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Thanks for the info. I will take the antenna down this weekend and remove the pre-amp and try other locations. A friend has ordered a new antenna from lava HD-2605 and is going to let me try it just incase my antenna isnt working. The signals actually look better since I used that tool you gave me for right at my location. I will let you know what happens this weekend.




Quote:
Originally Posted by mtownsend View Post
My initial reaction is that the signals should be strong enough (according to your report) to be picked up easily by an outdoor 4228, and especially if there's a good pre-amp also being used.



Here are a few comments/suggestions:



1) Make sure the analyzed location is accurate for your house. Sometimes, address lookups are not all that accurate (varies from one city to the next depending on the quality of the database sources). You can check the accuracy by using the Interactive Maps tool (here). It will show a map after you enter your address and if the location is not quite right, you can drag-n-drop the pointer until it's right on top of your house. If the initial address lookup is significantly different than your true location, there might be big differences in the analysis results.

You can also play what-if games with antenna heights by changing the value in the height field (everything is automatically recomputed).



2) Pre-amps cannot be simply "turned off". If you disconnect the power supply (or unplug it), but leave the pre-amp inline, then the amp becomes a dead circuit that doesn't allow anything though. An unpowered pre-amp does NOT act like a "pass thru" device. You must physically remove the amp in order to test the antenna by itself.



3) Have you tried turning the antenna in a few different directions? By experimenting with antenna aim, you might be able to find a better "sweet spot" that picks up a cleaner signal on more of the channels.
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Old 22-Jul-2010, 12:27 AM   #6
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Just FYI, the Lava antennas are very cheaply made and are poor performing antennas. They might work if you have strong signals to begin with, but many people have had bad experiences with these antennas. There have been multiple reports that the built-in rotator dies after about 1 year. The antenna itself is physically too small to have much raw gain, so it's of very little help when there are marginally receivable channels.
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Old 22-Jul-2010, 2:20 AM   #7
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Thanks again for the info. He purchased it from amazon so if it doesnt work he can send it back.
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Old 24-Jul-2010, 1:33 AM   #8
chumster
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Well I am defeated. We spent the day trying to get better signal, but no luck. The 4228 pulled in a signal of 20 for WTAJ, and the cheap lava pulled in a 58 but nothing else. I had one glimpse of channel 47, but could not pull it in. So everything I bought from amazon is going back. The cable company offers the limited package for $19.95 a month so that still beats paying $60.00 a month to dish network.



Quote:
Originally Posted by mtownsend View Post
Just FYI, the Lava antennas are very cheaply made and are poor performing antennas. They might work if you have strong signals to begin with, but many people have had bad experiences with these antennas. There have been multiple reports that the built-in rotator dies after about 1 year. The antenna itself is physically too small to have much raw gain, so it's of very little help when there are marginally receivable channels.
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Old 24-Jul-2010, 1:42 AM   #9
mtownsend
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Sorry to hear that.

The 4228 is a very powerful antenna that lots of people use with great success. I hope your frustration was not all caused by something silly like a bad connector (been known to happen), bad cable, or bad converter box.
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Old 24-Jul-2010, 1:55 AM   #10
chumster
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Actually I was thinking about trying a new converter box. The equipment is new and the picture I get is flawless. The box I am using is a walmart magnavox cut made by funai. What would be a good box to try I can purchase from amazon? Everyone tells me the same that I sould be getting more channels.



Quote:
Originally Posted by mtownsend View Post
Sorry to hear that.

The 4228 is a very powerful antenna that lots of people use with great success. I hope your frustration was not all caused by something silly like a bad connector (been known to happen), bad cable, or bad converter box.
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Old 24-Jul-2010, 2:30 AM   #11
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Don't give up the ship just yet. I also tried the CB 4228 and Antennacraft U8000 mounted on my roof at my location and they didn't work very well at all. In fact, the CB4221HD is outperforming both while sitting in my living room some 35 miles from the nearest signals and WITHOUT a pre amp.

My guess is that you have a problem with multipath just like I do. Try something like the Antennacraft MXU59 with a Titan 7777 pre amp from Channel Bastard. Or if you have a few more bux to spend look at the Antennas Direct 91XG. I use both of these antennas at my location and I am getting around 80 to 90% signal strength on all my channels in yellow and around 60 to 80% on average on a red signal showing a weak 2 edge signal with a strength of around 6 db. My guess is that either of these antennas with that pre amp will give you at least the top four channels on your TV Fool report.
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Old 24-Jul-2010, 2:56 AM   #12
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Ok, I purchased the 91XG for $70 off amazon free shipping. This way if it dont work they will take it back. When you mean multipath are you talking about the towers being close? Because I took notice that 3 are on top of each other. Now I will sit back and wait. Thanks for the info!
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Old 24-Jul-2010, 3:02 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chumster View Post
Ok, I purchased the 91XG for $70 off amazon free shipping. This way if it dont work they will take it back. When you mean multipath are you talking about the towers being close? Because I took notice that 3 are on top of each other. Now I will sit back and wait. Thanks for the info!
The 91xg is a good antenna. You will have to assemble it though you can get help from Antennas Direct if need be. I've found their CS department to be very useful in times of need.

Multipath is created when the signal from a station bounces off objects such as large buildings, mountains or hills and trees. I think you are in PA which is a hilly and mountainous state. Thus, you will not have a very clean Line of Site path to your towers. 1 edge and 2 edge signals are being received indirectly from the tower via another path unlike a LOS or Line of Sight signal which has a straight path from the tower to the receiving antenna.

I'd also get a better pre amp. It is very possible that thing no longer works right and is actually causing you to lose signal. The 7777 should work fine.

Last edited by Billiam; 24-Jul-2010 at 10:42 AM.
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Old 24-Jul-2010, 8:03 PM   #14
chumster
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The pre-amp I have is the Channel Master 7775 Titan2. It seems to work fine but time will tell when I get the new antenna. Thanks
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Old 28-Jul-2010, 1:22 AM   #15
chumster
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Ok, I got the 91XG today and installed it. I now get a crystal clear channel 10 and channel 47 so I picked up a channel. When I scan for channels the converter box stalls 4 times when scanning. Twice a channel found light comes on and twice not. So now I am going to hook up a friends digital TV tomorrow and see what I can get. I figure its the other 2 strong channels on my TVfool page. Something tells me the converter box is trouble.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Billiam View Post
Don't give up the ship just yet. I also tried the CB 4228 and Antennacraft U8000 mounted on my roof at my location and they didn't work very well at all. In fact, the CB4221HD is outperforming both while sitting in my living room some 35 miles from the nearest signals and WITHOUT a pre amp.

My guess is that you have a problem with multipath just like I do. Try something like the Antennacraft MXU59 with a Titan 7777 pre amp from Channel Bastard. Or if you have a few more bux to spend look at the Antennas Direct 91XG. I use both of these antennas at my location and I am getting around 80 to 90% signal strength on all my channels in yellow and around 60 to 80% on average on a red signal showing a weak 2 edge signal with a strength of around 6 db. My guess is that either of these antennas with that pre amp will give you at least the top four channels on your TV Fool report.
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Old 28-Jul-2010, 1:53 AM   #16
No static at all
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Do you have the front of the antenna tilted up slightly? I have found this quite helpful in fringe/mountainous areas.

Did you try aiming the antenna towards 287 degrees to see if NBC 6 is available? You can enter channels manually on the Magnavox converter by entering the real RF channel # (34 for NBC 6) & it will find the channel & enter it into the memory if strong enough.

I have tested a few of the Magnavox converters & had excellent results in both deep fringe & metropolitan areas. They have worked just as well as the Zenith, Zinwell & Channel Master models.
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Old 28-Jul-2010, 2:04 AM   #17
chumster
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Hi,

No I dont have it tilted, but I can with this model. I will try to tilt it tomorrow. When I enter the RF channel it says scanning and then no signal. I am going to try the digital tv first and see what happens. I did point towards WJAC and the converter pauses but thats all.


Quote:
Originally Posted by No static at all View Post
Do you have the front of the antenna tilted up slightly? I have found this quite helpful in fringe/mountainous areas.

Did you try aiming the antenna towards 287 degrees to see if NBC 6 is available? You can enter channels manually on the Magnavox converter by entering the real RF channel # (34 for NBC 6) & it will find the channel & enter it into the memory if strong enough.

I have tested a few of the Magnavox converters & had excellent results in both deep fringe & metropolitan areas. They have worked just as well as the Zenith, Zinwell & Channel Master models.
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Old 28-Jul-2010, 2:18 AM   #18
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Yeah, It never hurts to try another tuner to see if there are any differences.

I recently put up a 91XG at a friends house & with a few hours of slight height/tilt adjustments, reception is outstanding. We had previously tried the original CM 4428 & Winegard HD8800 with so-so results. We also switched from a CM7777 preamp to a Winegard AP 4800 (UHF only) & noticed a slight improvement in reliability as well.

One other question; how close is the preamp module to the antenna?
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Old 28-Jul-2010, 2:20 AM   #19
chumster
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The pre-amp module is about 12-15 inches below the antenna. Should I have it closer?



Quote:
Originally Posted by No static at all View Post
Yeah, It never hurts to try another tuner to see if there are any differences.

I recently put up a 91XG at a friends house & with a few hours of slight height/tilt adjustments, reception is outstanding. We had previously tried the original CM 4428 & Winegard HD8800 with so-so results. We also switched from a CM7777 preamp to a Winegard AP 4800 (UHF only) & noticed a slight improvement in reliability as well.

One other question; how close is the preamp module to the antenna?
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Old 28-Jul-2010, 2:23 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chumster View Post
The pre-amp module is about 12-15 inches below the antenna. Should I have it closer?
No, even a few feet is fine!!
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