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Old 19-Mar-2021, 12:45 AM   #1
toddbailey
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looking for advice

hi all,

i have an older cm-4228, 100 ft lmr-400 cable, and a cm 3414 splitter and looking for advice on what else do I need to get the few missing channels. do I need more antenna (adding a second 4228) a pre amp or a different antenna

All the towers are between 148 and 154 azmuth. the current antenna is apx 30 feet up.
Seattle towers are apx 25 miles away but I'm in a 2 edge purple zone

thanks
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Old 19-Mar-2021, 11:21 PM   #2
rabbit73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toddbailey View Post
i have an older cm-4228, 100 ft lmr-400 cable, and a cm 3414 splitter and looking for advice on what else do I need to get the few missing channels.
Hello, toddbailey; welcome to the forum.

Your description doesn't seem to match your location. Please do a signal report at rabbitears.info so that we can see what signals you have (I use coordinates from Google maps). You can do a report at this site:
https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php

A generic report for Carnation looks like this:
https://www.rabbitears.info/searchma...tudy_id=234086

A generic map for Carnation looks looks this:



Quote:
i have an older cm-4228, 100 ft lmr-400 cable, and a cm 3414 splitter and looking for advice on what else do I need to get the few missing channels.
What channels do you get now, and what channels are missing?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg toddbaileyTVFgenericMap_1.jpg (205.5 KB, 162 views)
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Last edited by rabbit73; 19-Mar-2021 at 11:25 PM.
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Old 20-Mar-2021, 5:26 PM   #3
toddbailey
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https://www.rabbitears.info/searchma...tudy_id=234296


yes 33‑1 (33) KWPX-TV ION BELLEVUE WA 13.5 192.5 177.1 105.96 Good 65.36
yes 56‑1 (34) KWDK Daystar TACOMA WA 13.5 192.5 177.1 100.89 Good 60.21 L
yes 7‑1 (18) KIRO-TV CBS Issaquah WA 13.5 192.5 177.1 83.90 Fair 44.75 L
yes 22‑1 (36) KZJO My SEATTLE WA 19.5 253.6 238.2 78.55 Fair 37.69 L
yes 46‑1 (12) KUSE-LD Azteca SEATTLE WA 13.5 192.5 177.1 76.56 Fair 40.56
yes 4‑1 (30) KOMO-TV ABC SEATTLE WA 21.3 258.2 242.8 74.31 Fair 33.99 L
yes 7‑1 (23) KIRO-TV CBS SEATTLE WA 21.4 258.4 243 72.89 Fair 33.23 L
yes 51‑1 (24) KUNS-TV UNI BELLEVUE WA 21.3 258.2 242.8 72.42 Fair 32.66 L
yes 9‑1 (9) KCTS-TV PBS SEATTLE WA 19.5 253.7 238.3 71.87 Fair 35.87
yes 16‑1 (31) KONG IND EVERETT WA 21.1 258 242.6 66.38 Fair 25.96
yes 5‑1 (25) KING-TV NBC SEATTLE WA 21.1 258 242.6 65.35 Fair 25.5 L

iffy 11‑1 (11) KSTW CW TACOMA WA 19.5 253.6 238.2 71.46 Fair 35.46
iffy 13‑1 (13) KCPQ FOX TACOMA WA 43.2 256.6 241.2 61.23 Fair 25.23
iffy 13‑1 (22) KCPQ FOX TACOMA WA 19.5 253.6 238.2 58.03 Poor 18.47


no 44‑1 (16) KFFV MeTV SEATTLE WA 19.5 253.6 238.2 60.45 Poor 21.51 L

no 20‑1 (21) KTBW-TV TBN TACOMA WA 42.6 256.4 241 60.54 Poor 21.08 L
no 6‑1 (6) KYMU-LD IND SEATTLE WA 21.4 258.4 243 57.37 Poor 29.37
no 35‑1 (35) K35PB-D MALTBY WA 21.4 258.4 243 53.23 Poor 12.46
no 24‑1 (32) KRUM-LD REL SEATTLE WA 21.1 258 242.6 52.11 Poor 11.6
no 28‑1 (27) KBTC-TV PBS TACOMA WA 40.4 224.7 209.3 50.50 Poor 10.45
no 8‑1 (8) K08OU-D 3ABN SEATTLE WA 19.5 253.6 238.2 48.71 Poor 12.71
no 28‑1 (28) KBTC-TV PBS Seattle WA 19.5 253.6 238.2 45.68 Poor 5.54


the stations i want to receive are kstw 11, kffv (44-1 / 16) and kcpq (13 & 22)
currently kstw and kcpq are marginal, kffv is a no show

Last edited by toddbailey; 20-Mar-2021 at 5:30 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 20-Mar-2021, 10:07 PM   #4
rabbit73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toddbailey View Post
the stations i want to receive are kstw 11, kffv (44-1 / 16) and kcpq (13 & 22)
currently kstw and kcpq are marginal, kffv is a no show
Thank you for the signal report.





9-1 (9) KCTS and 11-1 (11) KSTW are both listed at about the same strength; but you receive KCTS better. KCTS is licensed in Seattle and KSTW licensed in Tacoma, but the towers are close together in Seattle on Capitol Hill.



The original 4228 was designed primarily for UHF signals, but it has some useful gain on VHF-High (7-13).



KCTS and KSTW have a similar terrain profile; there is a hill in the signal path:



KCTS is running 21.7 kW ERP to an non-directional antenna and KSTW is running 100kW ERP to a very directional antenna that sends much less than 100 kW in your direction.

I suspect that the KSTW signal is weaker at your location because of the slightly different signal path, the signal diffraction at the crest of the hill, and the trees surrounding your location.

If you want to improve the reception of KSTW, you will need a separate antenna designed for VHF-High like the Stellar Labs 30-2476 or 30-2475. This antenna should also improve the reception of 13-1 (13) KCPQ. Try it without its own preamp first.

KFFV is much weaker. If you are not able to receive it with your 4228 antenna aimed at 238 deg true, you could try adding a medium gain preamp at the antenna. The risk is that the much stronger signals from the south might cause overload even though they are in a different direction.

A last resort for WFFV would be a third separate antenna for UHF like the Antennas Direct 91XG or Solid Signal HDB91X with a custom bandpass filter for channel 16 and a preamp.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg toddbaileyTVFmap_1.jpg (205.3 KB, 161 views)
File Type: png toddbaileyTVFreportRE.png (316.3 KB, 161 views)
File Type: jpg toddbaileyTVFseattleTowers_1.jpg (208.1 KB, 161 views)
File Type: jpg CM4228origForVHF3.jpg (189.8 KB, 160 views)
File Type: jpg toddbaileyTVFp3KSTW.jpg (92.4 KB, 152 views)
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Last edited by rabbit73; 21-Mar-2021 at 12:54 AM.
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Old 21-Mar-2021, 6:12 PM   #5
toddbailey
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thanks for the feedback.
I made a mistake in reporting that I receive ch 9 kcts-pbs, I don't. This is another channel i'd like to receive. but with lower importance.
i'll review this and try out your suggestions.

Since I have a unused corner yagi i think i'll try stacking it below the bow tie i don't have any info on these antennas so I've included pictures.

any thoughts on adding a cm 7777 amp to boost the signal further?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg a2.jpg (350.8 KB, 81 views)
File Type: jpg A1.jpg (103.7 KB, 79 views)
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Old 21-Mar-2021, 7:05 PM   #6
rabbit73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toddbailey View Post
thanks for the feedback.
I made a mistake in reporting that I receive ch 9 kcts-pbs, I don't. This is another channel i'd like to receive. but with lower importance.
i'll review this and try out your suggestions.
Thank you for the correction; that makes more sense.

Using a separate antenna designed for VHF-High should help with reception of KCTS and KSTW.

Quote:
Since I have a unused corner yagi i think i'll try stacking it below the bow tie i don't have any info on these antennas so I've included pictures.
The corner reflector yagi should be able to pick up most of the same channels as the original 4228.

This is an original 4228:



Quote:
any thoughts on adding a cm 7777 amp to boost the signal further?
The 7777 is a high gain preamp; it would probably be overloaded by the very strong signals from the south.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg CM 4228 original3.jpg (263.0 KB, 155 views)
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Old 22-Mar-2021, 1:54 AM   #7
toddbailey
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just ordered a cm-7777hd, a switchable dual gain preamp 16/25db, and antenna joiner for future vhf antenna.

btw all stations I currently get are labeled as marginable at best according to the tv's signal meter
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Old 23-Mar-2021, 5:29 PM   #8
toddbailey
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from what I gather joining multiple antennas is iffy at best, and connecting my cm-4228 with my rs u-120 sounds like a recipe for signal phasing and cancellation problems.
but since I got the hardware already ordered I'll give it a try anyway.


would a better option be to go with a single antenna?
if so, what is the best and highest gain uni-directional vhf/uhf antenna available?

would increasing antenna height from 30 to 40 ft help much?

also I'm using 75 to 100 ft of lmr-400/50 coax
it should be 75 ohm but the company sent the wrong product and the return policy didn't include shipping costs. so I went ahead and used it anyway and just going from rg-6 to the
lmr-400 product gave me a nice improvement in reception quality.
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Old 24-Mar-2021, 7:47 PM   #9
rabbit73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toddbailey View Post
from what I gather joining multiple antennas is iffy at best, and connecting my cm-4228 with my rs u-120 sounds like a recipe for signal phasing and cancellation problems.
but since I got the hardware already ordered I'll give it a try anyway.
Well, since nobody is answering you:

Yes, it can be iffy. You just have to try it.

If the two antennas are identical and aimed in the same direction, you can combine them for increased gain. You can use a splitter in reverse as a combiner. The feedlines must be the same length. If the antennas have baluns, they must be in phase.

If the two antennas are aimed in different directions, they can be different and the two feedlines don't have to be the same length.
Quote:
would a better option be to go with a single antenna?
if so, what is the best and highest gain uni-directional vhf/uhf antenna available?
That is a possible option. The Winegard HD7698P would be suitable. The long VHF-High elements at the rear must be opened in the correct order; the instructions are confusing.







Quote:
would increasing antenna height from 30 to 40 ft help much?
The general rule is higher is better, but it isn't always true.
Quote:
also I'm using 75 to 100 ft of lmr-400/50 coax
it should be 75 ohm but the company sent the wrong product and the return policy didn't include shipping costs. so I went ahead and used it anyway and just going from rg-6 to the
50 vs 75 probably isn't that critical because the output impedance of the antenna isn't going to be 75 ohms at all frequencies.
Quote:
lmr-400 product gave me a nice improvement in reception quality.
That reduces the signal loss, especially for UHF. However, if you use a medium gain preamp at the antenna, it will amplify the signals before coming down the coax, possibly making RG6 good enough.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Winegard HD7698P Gain2.jpg (64.9 KB, 147 views)
File Type: jpg Winegard HD7698P New Instructions Image_2.jpg (97.2 KB, 144 views)
File Type: jpg Winegard HD7698P Old Instructions Image_2.jpg (99.9 KB, 144 views)
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Last edited by rabbit73; 24-Mar-2021 at 10:15 PM.
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Old 25-Mar-2021, 4:07 PM   #10
toddbailey
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I took delivery of a channel master cm-7777hd preamp and wired it in just before the 4 way splitter. In doing so i gained channel 20. so a slight win. Other channels seem basically unaffected. This amp is CM's dual gain device. The lo gain offers 17db and the hi gain setting states 30-35 db.
In either setting there was no change in the number of channels received and little change in signal strength but I noticed that pixelation on the channels that had these issues improved somewhat. Of course the amp is installed at the wrong location and should be out by the antenna not inside next to the splitter.

At some future point, I'll venture out on the roof and install it where it should be, next to the antenna.

On a side note, I found an alternative to relying on a ota antenna, there is a free streaming service called locast that provides local stations over an internet connection. to use all you need is a pc or a smart tv or other streaming device. so this entire exercise on upgrading one's own ota system might be moot. The deal breaker is whether or not I can configure my DVR, mythtv, to record from a particular channel at a desired time and do so reliably. Mean while I'll go ahead with stacking project and see how the cm 4228 and the rs u120 work together with the preamp.
I suspect I'll actually lose channels do to different design and phasing issues. But it's wait and see what happens but with out a proper vhf antenna I suspect I still won't get the channels I need.

Last edited by toddbailey; 25-Mar-2021 at 4:18 PM.
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Old 25-Mar-2021, 7:48 PM   #11
JoeAZ
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OR: You could purchase a TELEVES DAT BOSS MIX LR which is designed for
Rf 7-36 and comes with it's own built in preamp. Smaller, shorter and better
built than the HD 7698P and it does not have that crappy connection enclosure.
My experience has shown it outperforms the 7698p on UHF and is about as good
on Rf 7-13.
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Old 25-Mar-2021, 8:57 PM   #12
toddbailey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeAZ View Post
OR: You could purchase a TELEVES DAT BOSS MIX LR which is designed for
Rf 7-36 and comes with it's own built in preamp. Smaller, shorter and better
built than the HD 7698P and it does not have that crappy connection enclosure.
My experience has shown it outperforms the 7698p on UHF and is about as good
on Rf 7-13.
all these different antennas and different prices, they all seem to have a max gain of about 15 db. Which makes me wonder will model A be any better than model B?
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Old 25-Mar-2021, 11:35 PM   #13
JoeAZ
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I am 90+ miles from Phoenix, AZ in Prescott, AZ.
Phoenix transmitters broadcast at about 3k ASL, there
are 7-8K foot mtns between Phoenix and Prescott at 5,280 feet.
No other antenna has been even close in bringing in Phoenix
channels direct from South Mtn. Rf 8,10 and 12 sometimes
decode late at night. I get acknowledgement of UHF stations
from Phoenix. The Winegard 7698P wasn't even close.....
The Televes DAT BOSS MIX LR is available from Lowes' for
around $170.00 with the built in preamp. It's a bargain!
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Old 26-Mar-2021, 5:36 PM   #14
toddbailey
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Is there a Televes DAT BOSS MIX LR model that doesn't have an preamp?
I just purchased a CM-7777hd. guess I have another part I can't use after all

I'm thinking this one might be the ideal purchase

DAT BOSS MIX antenna
Low-VHF/High-VHF/UHF for 130 at lowe's


FYI locast is a pain to watch unless you subscribe, every 15 minutes a nag screen pops up and you are dumped out to the menu screen. Furthermore they don't provide dvr services nor a way to record via an external dvr system. still $5 / month isn't too much to ask in you just can't get that station you need

Last edited by toddbailey; 26-Mar-2021 at 6:15 PM.
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Old 26-Mar-2021, 7:26 PM   #15
JoeAZ
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Unless you NEED low VHF/ KYMU LP, the model you want is #149883.
It's a bit hard to find as it is in such high demand as are all Televes
antennas. You can check it out at TELEVES.com. It performs way
better than its specs would indicate and those specs are pretty impressive!
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Old 30-Mar-2021, 11:13 PM   #16
OTAFAN
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Can the antenna operate in either the active (0n) or passive (Off) modes through the supplied amp?

JoeAZ, you probably are using the amp on in your location, but for those of us in stronger signal locations, would this antenna perform just as well in passive mode?

Thanks for the Televes recommendation and advice! All the best.....
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Old 30-Mar-2021, 11:54 PM   #17
JoeAZ
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OTA FAN,
You are correct. I power the preamp 24/7. The antenna also works nicely
in passive mode, (preamp off) but I lose quite a few weak stations. The preamp
also rejects cell phone interference.... a huge plus!
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Old 31-Mar-2021, 12:47 AM   #18
OTAFAN
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I hope toddbailey won't mind too much if I ask another question, since you, JoeAz are the only one I've come across who has experience with this antenna.

I'm in SoCal LA/OC where signals are strong, but with a few Low-VHF that I watch, Retro 63.3 display real 4, and High-VHF 8, which is weak pointed directly into LA proper, but I can receive most of the time.

Two questions: Any overload issues you might see for me if I picked up the Televes, especially since most other LA stations are above 30SNR? And, the specs on Low-VHF passive are -3; you said your antenna performed better than the listed specs?

Thanks again, JoeAz, for your help. Techs like you have been essential here on this forum among others!
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Old 31-Mar-2021, 2:14 AM   #19
toddbailey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeAZ View Post
Unless you NEED low VHF/ KYMU LP, the model you want is #149883.
It's a bit hard to find as it is in such high demand as are all Televes
antennas. You can check it out at TELEVES.com. It performs way
better than its specs would indicate and those specs are pretty impressive!

otafan and others: feel free to jump in, this is a group discussion.

moving on
the jury is still out on vhf-lo, one station, 3-4 channels one in spanish and no english sub-titles.
if the tri band antenna costs about the same and performs about the same then it's an easy decision, however tax return has been delayed so the project is on hold. since I already have 2 antennas, i might as well try to stack the radio shack and channel master antennas and see what happens.

Last edited by toddbailey; 31-Mar-2021 at 2:20 AM.
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Old 31-Mar-2021, 5:34 AM   #20
toddbailey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OTAFAN View Post
Can the antenna operate in either the active (0n) or passive (Off) modes through the supplied amp?. ...

YES, the televes web site clearly states this...
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