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Old 29-Nov-2016, 11:47 PM   #1
Sparkynutz
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Ant Selection

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...dfaf40c68d841f

I purchased two antenna's to try and add some local channels to my current Netflix and internet only setup.

A Large Hospital is kiddey corner to me north east so Green bay stations are pointless and blocked by it.

I don't want a rotor and most likely just point towards Madison and call it good.
Every channel I want to get is UHF so I'm wondering if either of these will work or if I'd be better off with a specific model better suited for UHF channels
CBS 3.1, NBC 15.1, Weather 15.4, Fox 47.1, PBS 21.1, the rest I couldn't care less. just something with news on it mainly.

Walmart had a special on an RCA ANT751 for $25 so I picked it up and for the heck of it also bought the $38 RCA Attic Compact Design ANT705Z which shows up absolutely nowhere online but somewhat similar to https://www.amazon.com/GE-24792-Comp...rum-convert-20
but has 2 Metal fork looking things labeled UHF dipoles instead of the small loops on each side.

I plan on running the cable straight to one TV in my living room with about 40ft or as short of cable as I can.
Unsure on grounding block tho but will come through the bottom of the current exterior cable box into the house and follow the current cable internet coax wires.

The pole the antenna will be mounted to is already grounded and sticking out of the roof about 2ft and I'm attaching a 6ft piece of 2" galvanized exhaust pipe I had laying around as my pole. I'm hoping that should work ok with my tiny antenna.

any help would be great.
Thanks,
Ryan

PS I wouldn't be set on outdoor mount if I could attic mount and get the same reception using 1/3 the amount of wire.
I have a short ranch style house and one 2 story brick house right behind me that may or may not be issue.
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Old 30-Nov-2016, 12:26 AM   #2
rabbit73
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Welcome Ryan



Madison looks like the better direction if there are no trees or buildings in the signal path.
Quote:
I have a short ranch style house and one 2 story brick house right behind me that may or may not be issue.
Which way is behind you? I would need to look at a satellite view of your house with the green signal lines to see obstructions.

You will need a UHF antenna with more gain than the ones you have mentioned and a preamp for your 2Edge signals.

Consider the Antennas Direct DB8e, 91XG, and Solid Signal HDB91X.

For preamps, consider the Antennas Direct Juice, Channel Master 7778, and the less expensive RCA TVPRAMP1R.
Quote:
Unsure on grounding block tho but will come through the bottom of the current exterior cable box into the house and follow the current cable internet coax wires.
You can't have internet and OTA on the same coax.

If the antenna is outside, the coax shield should be grounded with a grounding block that is connected to the house electrical system ground with 10 gauge copper wire for electrical safety and to reject interference. For further compliance with the electrical code (NEC), the mast should also be grounded in a similar manner to drain any buildup of static charge which will tend to discourage a strike, but the system will not survive a direct strike.



Quote:
I'm attaching a 6ft piece of 2" galvanized exhaust pipe
That diameter might be too big for some antennas; 1-1/4 or 1-1/2 is more common. Double check it.
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Last edited by rabbit73; 30-Nov-2016 at 1:00 AM.
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Old 30-Nov-2016, 1:56 AM   #3
WIRELESS ENGINEER
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Since stacked bowtie antennas have far greater beamwidth and capture area than yagi antennas, they are usually the better choice

While they all "work" , I've found that the channel master 8 bay is still the best on the market and there are several field tests online that confirm that

Ignore all the "gain" figures that you see as they are all GREATLY exaggerated and usually reference a "isotropic" radiator to make their gain figures look higher by 2.14db or more

If you look at gain figures for instance on Winegard Yagi's they were reference to the industry standard "dipole" which produces REAL gain figures that can be trusted
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Old 30-Nov-2016, 2:18 AM   #4
Sparkynutz
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Wow! Fast replies!

My house is on the south west part of town.
Madison channels is what I'm hoping for. There are about 10 or so houses within 1/2 mile of me that will be directly blocking or close and some trees here and there. I would need a huge tower to get above them and I'm not willing to do that or spend that much. I'm hoping to keep it under $100.
The brick house behind me is exactly facing madison direction. I'm not 100% sure on exact direction but my mounting spot may allow it pointed be teen their house and their detached garage. I need to get a compass or something with exact degrees on it. Unless there's a better way?
I've been without regular tv over a year now, just thought it would be nice to have local news if I wanted it.
I had a large roof mount tripod and biggest $250 antenna RadioShack carried 15 years ago when I bought my house and got all the madison and Milwaukee channels fine. A couple years ago I put a new roof on prematurely when I found out it was leaking in a few spots and didn't want to ruin a new roof or chance new leaks putting it back up so I sold it.
There's a stink pipe for wash machine sticking out of my roof I'm going to attach the short 2" exhaust pipe I already had laying around to and run the new wire down the side of house and come in next to the current cable. I'm not replacing it or using that, just using the box as an entry point and keep everything clean looking which is why I want a small antenna. Smaller the better. If I get channels listed in other post I'll be happy. If not I just won't have an antenna. No big loss.

I'll look into those other antennas and try what I have now see what happens.
I can return these easily which is why I bought them. Buying and returning online would be a lot bigger hassle if they don't work that's why I'm trying to do more research and ask here first.

Thanks for the input!
Ryan

Edit- the first two are definitely way to big and heavy to mount outside where I'd like.
The overhead service is a few feet away straight south from where I'm mounting and don't trust anything big there.
The last one maybe, but smaller would make me feel better.
I'm not putting new holes in the roof and that spot is my best option avoiding that.

I have an area in my attic above my garage that could accommodate the first or 3rd antenna but sacrifice about 8ft in mounting height vs being outside and signals have to go through my shingles and 1x6 pine decking.
I kinda like that option better and would shorten the cable probably 20 ft atleast.

What would you do?

Last edited by Sparkynutz; 30-Nov-2016 at 2:57 AM.
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Old 30-Nov-2016, 11:16 AM   #5
ADTech
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Quote:
Unless there's a better way?
You can get a very good idea by using the interactive/online mapping tool. Switch over to satellite view, turn on the green lines, and then zoom and pan as needed. With the green lines, you can easily visualize the signal path back to Madison and see which antenna placement location offers the best available path.
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Old 30-Nov-2016, 12:45 PM   #6
Sparkynutz
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Hmm. I'll check that out.
What about attic vs roof mount?
Will the shorter cable offset the loss in height and going through more obstacles?
Leaning towards the last antenna because it's cheap but only if I know it will work in the attic.

Edit-
There's a lot more houses in the way than I realized.
Even if I had a 50ft tower the stations are still red, nothing yellow.
Am I wasting my time even thinking red uhf channels are possible with my requirements?

Last edited by Sparkynutz; 30-Nov-2016 at 1:26 PM.
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Old 30-Nov-2016, 3:16 PM   #7
rabbit73
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The suggestion by ADTech is a good one.

How to use the TVFOOL Interactive Map Browser

To select the best location for your antenna, you need to use the tvfool interactive map browser and move the cursor, by drag and drop, to your antenna location. Enter the antenna height. As you move the cursor, you will see the coordinates change to follow the cursor.

http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?opti...pper&Itemid=90

As you zoom in, you can choose map or satellite view. You can turn on the green signal lines. In satellite view you can sometimes choose vertical view or bird's eye view. You can turn off the street names (Labels) to protect your identity, if the image is shown in a post.

If you have a problem with the map browser, you can give me your address or the coordinates of your antenna in a PM (Private Forum Message) and I can generate the map.
Quote:
What about attic vs roof mount?
The signal loss in an attic is difficult to predict. You will need to make a temporary test setup to see if it will work. Don't drill any holes yet.
Quote:
Will the shorter cable offset the loss in height and going through more obstacles?
I doubt it. The obstacles will probably create a greater loss. Anyway, the preamp will minimize the cable loss for a longer run if the preamp is close to the antenna.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
Consider the Antennas Direct DB8e, 91XG, and Solid Signal HDB91X.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparkynutz View Post
Edit- the first two are definitely way to big and heavy to mount outside where I'd like.
The overhead service is a few feet away straight south from where I'm mounting and don't trust anything big there.
The last one maybe, but smaller would make me feel better.
The DB8e is an 8-bay bowtie panel antenna. The 91XG and the HDB91X are both UHF Yagi design antennas about the same size; the HDB91X is a clone copy of the 91XG.
Quote:
Am I wasting my time even thinking red uhf channels are possible with my requirements?
No, your report indicates that what you want is possible if the antenna is located where the best signals are at your location.
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Last edited by rabbit73; 30-Nov-2016 at 3:38 PM.
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Old 30-Nov-2016, 4:26 PM   #8
ADTech
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Please note that the DB8e's mast mounting clamps restrict it to a 1 3/4" diameter mast. The newest C4 and C4V models will accept a 2" OD mast, however, production for a period of time use smaller mast clamps that were only able to accommodate the 1 3/4" OD masts. Unfortunately, I have no way of telling you how to differentiate the clamps without actually opening the box and checking the clamps. The factory made that change in production and I didn't get the proper notification for my records.

FWIW, if your requirement is for a very compact antenna, the C4 (you don't need the VHF dipole attachment) is about as good as it's going to get although it's over your stated budget. Maybe you can find someone who scored the $79 Black Friday deal on the C4V from Best Buy and make a deal with them.
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Last edited by ADTech; 30-Nov-2016 at 4:28 PM.
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Old 30-Nov-2016, 5:37 PM   #9
Sparkynutz
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Thanks again for the input.
I took a tiny 24" flatsscreen with extension cords onto the roof climbed on top of my chimney and used a 6ft coax to each antenna holding by hand towards milwaukee and did an autoscan.
The small rca ANT705Z got
15.1
27.1,2,3
52.1,2,3,4,5
55.1,2,3,4,5,6
58.1,2,3,4

The rca ANT751 I thought would do better actually did worse with
52.1,3,4,5
55.1,2,3,4,5,6
58.1,2,3,4

Did an auto tune with ANT705Z laying on roof against stink pipe I'd mount my pole on facing Madison and got
15.1,2,3,4
21.1,2,3
27.1,2,3
52.1,2,3,4,5
57.1,2,3

Wonder if I should keep the small one I have that picked up the most and get the $20 amp listed above or return both and buy one of the others and attic mount it and hope for better reception.
If mounted outside I really like how small this one is. I couldn't see mounting a big clunky one that close to my overhead service.

I'm good at fabricating so clamps and pipe size shouldn't matter too much if I need to change something.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00IITMTKE..._t2_B008PBTPOI
I was looking at this one previously and size wouldn't be too bad for mounting outside if it's better than the ANT705Z I tried.
I scanned the box with my phone and Walmart is the only thing that comes up and the picture isnt even close to what it actually looks like.
The box says
25x18x17"
174-216 Mhz VHF
470-698 MHZ UHF
if that helps at all

Wonder if I'd be even better off using two of these cheap 705's on same pole one facing milwaukee, one facing madison?

Its tiny, weighs less than a pound and only $39 each

I'm a little confused tho as why tv fool doesn't list many of the channels I received and the channel master site similar shows some of them but not all either.

Also wondering why I didn't get 3.1,2 or , 47.1,2,3. Whats different about these channels yet many other ones that show lower Nm db rating picked up just fine.
Edit- I just noticed 3 and 47 are 2* different from all the rest of the stations and something must be in the way or something. 21 still comes in at good so that kinda throws me off when the Nm db is lower on that station as well.
Any ideas?

Last edited by Sparkynutz; 30-Nov-2016 at 11:19 PM. Reason: Had directions mixed up madison vs milwaukee. corrected now.
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Old 1-Dec-2016, 12:27 AM   #10
Sparkynutz
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https://www.solidsignal.com/pview.as...F-(HDB4X)&c=TV Antennas&sku=
Deal of the day $25 HDB4X Would that still be better than the 705 that I already have?
or better off with a CS 2 or CS4 if I can find it cheap?

I'd like to stay as small and simple as possible.
Probably no amp if I can get the channels I already got today and maybe 3 or 47 would be a bonus.
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Old 1-Dec-2016, 7:49 PM   #11
rickbb
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That's a good deal on that 4 bay. I'm a fan of the bow tie style as they have worked well for me.

If you're good with fabrication you should google Mclapp DB4, he has some plans on his site and if you follow them with decent precision you can build an antenna with as much, (or more), gain as any you could buy.

If I were in your shoes with towers almost 180 degrees opposite of each other I'd try the 4 bay and remove the reflector, aim it about 20 degrees off from the direction of one set of towers. But I'm not a fan of attic mounts, they have never performed at even half of what I expect from my location. I vote for roof top.

With the reflector removed it will receive signals from both front and back of the antenna. With some fine tuning on the aiming you could get channels from both directions. Channel 43, (52.1) is so close and strong you should get it as well.
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Old 1-Dec-2016, 9:34 PM   #12
Sparkynutz
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I got 52 with only the piece of coax and no antenna connected. I'm really hoping I can get 3.1 CBS and 47.1 FOX tho that neither are currently picked up with either antenna.
I think I'm going to order the HDB4X. Can't beat the price and return the other two.
I could easily build the diy antenna but would be too tacky and crude for my tastes mounting outside unless I put in some serious work making it look nice. For $25 plus shipping I'd rather just save the time and buy it one.
Thanks for all the help!

All ordered. Shipping was a little overpriced at $15 but I grabbed some clearance hdmi cables for a buck so it's not too bad I guess. $43 to my door for antenna and 3 cables.

Last edited by Sparkynutz; 1-Dec-2016 at 9:43 PM.
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Old 12-Dec-2016, 3:35 AM   #13
Sparkynutz
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I got the HDB4X up on roof connected to main tv in living room and got most of the madison channels. The roof had 4-5 inches of snow on it and was pretty sketchy. I shouldn't have been up there but got it mounted, tossed cable over side of roof and got it all hooked up wit out fall in off. I will fine tune the direction in the spring when it's safer to do so. I didn't want to press my luck messing around up there more than I had to but wanted to know if I could return the other antennas or keep one if the new antenna didn't give better reception.

I just have one question.
How will removing the "refector" affect my current madison facing channels? I barely get (3.1) real channel 50 now and when I ran the cable through a splitter to a 2nd tv my reception that channel was intermittent and slightly better at night. That's the channel I wanted to get most.

Last edited by Sparkynutz; 12-Dec-2016 at 3:42 AM.
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Old 12-Dec-2016, 1:43 PM   #14
rickbb
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Removing the reflector will reduce your gain a bit, and pick up signals from the back side that the reflector currently blocks.

A 2 way splitter cuts your gain roughly in half, you may want to try a low gain distribution amp instead of the splitter. Something like a 6 to 10db amp.

edit to correct spelling.

Last edited by rickbb; 12-Dec-2016 at 1:46 PM.
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Old 12-Dec-2016, 4:30 PM   #15
Sparkynutz
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The splitter said -3.5db. I just removed it and went to one tv. I can easily swap tvs if needed the very few times I'll ever use it in bedroom.
Any idea how much loss from removing the reflector? Would I lose 3 without adding an amp?
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