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Old 26-Mar-2023, 6:36 PM   #1
Dagwood
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Weird signals . . .

This goes along with my previous thread, Sudden reception problem. But to keep it simpler I'm making a separate thread even though it all seems to be related. I've done absolutely nothing with the existing system, my new Channel Master amp is still in the box.

This is a partial list of channels that I've scanned and entered on my Vizios (2, different models).



A couple of days ago I noticed that there were some duplicate channels on my TV list. 31-1 and 31-2 and maybe another one. How can the same channel get on there twice? I did not rescan, they just appeared there by themselves.

So then I realized that if I went to the first instance of 31-1 there was no signal. When I went to the second it came in great, very strong. The same thing happened when I tried both of the 31-2 entries.

This morning I rescanned the channels and they all came in correctly, no duplicates, and all are very strong.

So, how did the duplicates get on both my TVs, and why was one entry dead and the duplicate very strong?

As of now, 2:30 PM, all channels are coming in great, including PBS which, along with 31, were the first ones to disappear over two weeks ago, per my first thread.

Hey OT, if you've gotten this far, how do you like my av?
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Old 26-Mar-2023, 9:42 PM   #2
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Yeah, it reminds me of the comic strips and cartoons I read and watched as a kid. Which I've reverted too now that the world is going to hell on a fast track. I figure I might as well go out laughing, less painful. LOL!!!

As far as your technical issues, I've seen duplicate channels before at my location too. They settle down like yours did and my viewing is then stable.

I'm not exactly sure how to explain it. There are Techs here on TV Fool still posting that could give us clarification. Tim from Georgia is one, for instance. I'm hoping he'll jump in here. It would be helpful. Also, there is Tower Guy, who worked in the industry for decades until he retired. He's up in your neck of the woods in New York. He would certainly know what's going on. CQ, CQ, CQ, to Tim and Tower Guy!!! Oh, and there is also Bobsgarage and Tripelo. They would have answers for us!

In the meantime, I'll do some research and see if I can come up with any answers.

IMHO, I would still replace your failing Amp with the new Channel Master one you bought. Otherwise, I think your reception is going to be hit and miss, mostly miss going forward.

Alright, keep us posted and laughing, Dagwood!

P.S. Just found this interesting link:
https://www.tvmagic.com.au/why-am-i-...s-0476-717-671

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Old 27-Mar-2023, 2:13 AM   #3
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My long-gone father was a big fan of Dagwood. I remember as a kid he'd grab the newspaper and would read Dagwood before anything else. Dagwood was the typical male when men were men.

"Tower Guy!" I remember that name from before. Yes, I think he lives in western NY somewhere and was familiar with the Rochester stations. I don't recognize those other names.

That link was interesting. When they said the switch over to "HD TV" do they mean digital in 2009? There was no date on the article, so not sure.

Yes, I will install the new amp anyway when we get some decent weather. Not so much of a rush now, as long as things still work -- but I'm sure it won't last.

EDIT: I looked up "Tower Guy" and found him here. He last posted in December so he's still around I would think.
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Old 27-Mar-2023, 10:31 PM   #4
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YOU WROTE: "That link was interesting. When they said the switch over to "HD TV" do they mean digital in 2009? There was no date on the article, so not sure."

Yes, that's what I took it to mean.

I'm still hoping one of our good Techs will chime in here. They would be able to give us clarification and further explanation.

I'm not a Tech by any definition. Just many years of trial and error. I'm what you call a "cheer leader" for the forum. I do my best to keep informed and pass any information on to those who ask; as you have Dagwood.

Anyway, it looks like just you and me for now, kid! Let's pay it forward as the saying goes and hopefully others will join in soon.

Keep the forum updated Dagwood.

All the best.....

Last edited by OTAFAN; 27-Mar-2023 at 10:35 PM.
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Old 28-Mar-2023, 1:58 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OTAFAN View Post
YOU WROTE: "That link was interesting. When they said the switch over to "HD TV" do they mean digital in 2009? There was no date on the article, so not sure."

Yes, that's what I took it to mean.

I'm still hoping one of our good Techs will chime in here. They would be able to give us clarification and further explanation.
Most places you can "tag" people, usually by putting an "@" in front of their name or a #. I tried that here yesterday with Tower Guy but the tag doesn't work.

Quote:
I'm not a Tech by any definition. Just many years of trial and error. I'm what you call a "cheer leader" for the forum. I do my best to keep informed and pass any information on to those who ask; as you have Dagwood.

Anyway, it looks like just you and me for now, kid! Let's pay it forward as the saying goes and hopefully others will join in soon.

Keep the forum updated Dagwood.

All the best.....
Ha, looks like we're in the same boat. It's the old "No news is good news." I only come here when I have problems, maybe I should drop by once in a while for fun.

You mentioned this before and I don't get it: This thread has 152 hits since I put it up yesterday. I wonder why nobody chimes in?

FWIW: I'd read my old thread where I got stuck up on the roof (2017) and I was up there checking and cleaning the plastic box thingy of cobwebs and junk per Rabbit, or Arizona Joe. I have not checked it since then.

All my channels are still coming in very strong. In the past few days I've gone from sunny and dry, to wind and rain, and now a couple inches of new snow on the ground. Whatever was going on before, it doesn't seem like it would have anything to do with moisture and the above mentioned box.

But when I change the amp I will definitely open that box again and clean it.
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Old 29-Mar-2023, 10:40 PM   #6
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But when I change the amp I will definitely open that box again and clean it.
You probably already know this, but I think what rabbit73 and JoeAz meant was checking and keeping your connections free of moisture, rust and corrosion. I can't count the number of times over the years when my electronics had problems and it turned out to be a "connection issue." Either something was just a bit loose, dirty or in the case of antenna connections, moisture and corrosion.

A product that has proven itself issue free for me over the years is Coax Seal. When I finish connecting coax to my antennas, I always seal them up with Coax Seal. I've never had a breach or any problems with my reception. And when its time to replace an antenna, I can remove it without much effort; years or even decades after installation. Some folks don't seem to like it and prefer tape or other things, but I'll have to give Coax Seal "thumbs up" all around.

https://www.amazon.com/Fittings-Univ...A%3D%3D&sr=8-3

https://www.rfparts.com/coaxseal.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s92i2WALXcQ

http://coaxseal.com/products/

Just a tip from a cheer leader for the forum, Dagwood! LOL!!

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Old 31-Mar-2023, 10:17 PM   #7
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Old 11-May-2023, 2:01 AM   #8
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Unhappy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagwood View Post
This goes along with my previous thread, Sudden reception problem. But to keep it simpler I'm making a separate thread even though it all seems to be related. I've done absolutely nothing with the existing system, my new Channel Master amp is still in the box.

<SNIP>

This morning I rescanned the channels and they all came in correctly, no duplicates, and all are very strong.

<SNIP>

As of now, 2:30 PM, all channels are coming in great, including PBS which, along with 31, were the first ones to disappear over two weeks ago, per my first thread.

Hey OT, if you've gotten this far, how do you like my av?
I made this ^ post on March 26. I thought I should not be a stranger and should update what is going on.

As of today, May 10, all channels are still coming very strong. Usually by early May or even earlier I start losing FOX 31, which comes back by late September or so.

But FOX is stronger today than it ever is. So I went from "normal" in early March, to losing all of PBS and FOX a couple weeks later, to then get everything back and stronger than it's ever been by the end of March.

I don't understand any of this, although I'm not complaining. (my new Channel Master amp is still sitting in the box).
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Old 14-Jun-2023, 2:47 AM   #9
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Ok, "Hi all" if anybody's alive here.

Here we are, the 13th of June, and Fox is still coming in perfectly. This has NEVER happened before -- it usually gets pixely late-March early-April and is gone til late September or October when the atmosphere changes back.

I still have not installed my new amplifier, haven't done anything at all. I'm wondering if Fox boosted their power? It's the only thing that makes sense.

I bet Tower Guy or Rabbit Guy would know.
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Old 22-Jun-2023, 2:40 PM   #10
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Sounds like someone cut down a big tree that was between you and the tower.

I lose some channels in spring and get them back in fall due to a large oak tree across the street directly in front of the tower for them.

When the leaves drop, I get good signal, when they come back, spotty to no signal. Heavy rain makes the leaves droop, no signal at all.
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Old 23-Jun-2023, 2:12 PM   #11
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Sounds like someone cut down a big tree that was between you and the tower.

I lose some channels in spring and get them back in fall due to a large oak tree across the street directly in front of the tower for them.

When the leaves drop, I get good signal, when they come back, spotty to no signal. Heavy rain makes the leaves droop, no signal at all.
No, can't be that. I'm literally in a woods and am surrounded by thousands of acres of woods, plus there is a hill between me and the OTA transmitters. The signals bend enough for me to get them.

Leaves, or lack of them doesn't seem to be the reason for signal/no signal here. Previously, I would start picking up Fox the end of September; leaves are still all on the trees.

I would start losing the signal in March/April before the trees even bud out. It has to be an atmospheric change from the seasons.

At any rate, I have NEVER been able to get Fox in June and it's still coming in like gangbusters.

Where's @Tower Guy and @rabbit73? Anybody know how to properly tag someone on this forum? And where did OTAFan go?
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Old 24-Jun-2023, 9:55 PM   #12
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And where did OTAFan go?
I'm still here, Dagwood!

I was just waiting for others to post with suggestions that might help you. It was good to read rickbb's reply.

rabbit73 is back in the saddle here, although it's been a while since he posted. He said he had lost his password, but was finally able to log back in. So, look for him again somewhere down the line.

Tower Guy??? I hope he's still alive and well. Perhaps just waiting for a thread he feels he can contribute to with helpful advice. My best guess.....

As far as your situation goes, like rabbit73 has posted before, this OTA stuff still has its mystery's! Maybe the TV gods have enhanced your inversion layer because you've been a good boy lately--LOL!

If I can think of anything else, I'll certainly post here.

In the meantime, Svengoolie is on MeTV tonight, oh boy!!!
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Old 26-Jun-2023, 2:03 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by OTAFAN View Post
I'm still here, Dagwood!

I was just waiting for others to post with suggestions that might help you. It was good to read rickbb's reply.

rabbit73 is back in the saddle here, although it's been a while since he posted. He said he had lost his password, but was finally able to log back in. So, look for him again somewhere down the line.

Tower Guy??? I hope he's still alive and well. Perhaps just waiting for a thread he feels he can contribute to with helpful advice. My best guess.....

As far as your situation goes, like rabbit73 has posted before, this OTA stuff still has its mystery's! Maybe the TV gods have enhanced your inversion layer because you've been a good boy lately--LOL!

If I can think of anything else, I'll certainly post here.

In the meantime, Svengoolie is on MeTV tonight, oh boy!!!
Hey bud, good to "see" you!

I will put my new booster on before winter, although I'm kinda apprehensive about messing with something that's working so great.

Tower Guy lives here in western NYS somewhere, if I recall correctly.
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Old 27-Jun-2023, 5:47 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Dagwood View Post
Where's @rabbit73?
I'm still around, but I'm not as active because I'm now 90. I keep track of the ATSC 3.0 DRM problem on the AVS Forum and SDRs on the RadioReference Forum.
https://www.avsforum.com/threads/ats...95418/page-391

https://forums.radioreference.com/fo...ned-radio.193/

Quote:
I'm literally in a woods and am surrounded by thousands of acres of woods, plus there is a hill between me and the OTA transmitters. The signals bend enough for me to get them.
Yes, the signals have to bend down from the crest of the hill to your location, so your reception will never be 100% reliable. You are at the mercy of atmospheric conditions.

Your HILL:



The knife-edge effect scatters the signals at the crest of the hill:
https://standards.tiaonline.org/mark...5F%5BQB%2BK%0A



This shows the scattering:



which creates overlapping fields:



This is the rabbitears.info signal report for your location:
https://rabbitears.info/searchmap.ph...udy_id=1012794

Extract from report:



Using outdated TVFool data, I tried different antenna heights:







After making sure you have the best antenna for your location and all the connections are good, you have three choices:

1. Get used to what you are able to receive with the present antenna.
2. Move to a better location for OTA reception.
3. Put up a tower, after making a clear cut of the nearest trees in the signal path. You can sell the timber to help pay for the tower.

Quote:
If the antenna is behind a tree, it is in overlapping fields: a weak field that passes through the tree plus a weak field that is diffracted around the tree. Overlapping fields are complicated, with strong spots and weak spots. This will be true even if the tree is not a perfect sphere. If you get a UHF antenna to work behind a tree, you will likely see dropouts when the wind blows because the strong and weak spots will move around as the tree deforms. Even in a good-signal neighborhood it is inadvisable to put a UHF antenna behind a tree.

The farther away a tree is, the less of a problem it is. For far away trees, assume no signal penetrates the tree, and reception will be by diffraction around the tree. Trees block 100% of satellite signals.
Quote above from:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/siting.html

Example of nearby-tree problem:

Kevin didn't get many signals with his antenna aimed directly at the tree. He had to mount his antenna at the other end of the roof and rotate his antenna to the left to pick up the signals diffracted around the trees:

Attached Images
File Type: jpg dagwood hill_2.jpg (206.1 KB, 416 views)
File Type: jpg Knife-Edge Effect_2.jpg (200.4 KB, 419 views)
File Type: jpg DagwoodTVFsignalReportRE_1.jpg (176.5 KB, 424 views)
File Type: jpg DagwoodTVFgrnLine20ft_1.jpg (236.3 KB, 411 views)
File Type: jpg DagwoodTVFgrnLine125ft_1.jpg (234.5 KB, 409 views)
File Type: jpg dagwoodTVFgrnLines375ft_1.jpg (244.4 KB, 408 views)
File Type: jpg Skyline Multipath_1.jpg (156.6 KB, 423 views)
File Type: jpg Overlapping Fields2_3.jpg (204.8 KB, 414 views)
File Type: jpg kevm14 on roof2.jpg (149.7 KB, 285 views)
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Last edited by rabbit73; 5-Jul-2023 at 2:36 PM.
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Old 6-Jul-2023, 2:29 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Dagwood View Post
No, can't be that. I'm literally in a woods and am surrounded by thousands of acres of woods, plus there is a hill between me and the OTA transmitters. The signals bend enough for me to get them.

Leaves, or lack of them doesn't seem to be the reason for signal/no signal here. Previously, I would start picking up Fox the end of September; leaves are still all on the trees.

I would start losing the signal in March/April before the trees even bud out. It has to be an atmospheric change from the seasons.

At any rate, I have NEVER been able to get Fox in June and it's still coming in like gangbusters.

Where's @Tower Guy and @rabbit73? Anybody know how to properly tag someone on this forum? And where did OTAFan go?
Hi all, hope all are well. Rabbit, good to see you and thanks. You're 90?? Wow.

The mystery is over of why Fox is coming in like a storm 2-3 months later into the spring-summer than it ever did, and I don't think it's because they increased their output. I've had a roof antenna here since the mid-'80s although a very old one that was given to me. I got a completely new setup in 2011 I think.

As I may have mentioned, I live in a hole and there is rarely any wind here. I will get some gusts in the spring or fall when unsettled weather is the norm. But just gusts, never anything steady. It's what blew my ladder down in December 2017 as I linked to earlier.

I was walking between my barn and house yesterday and just happened to look up. My antenna has moved, by quite a lot. It must have been the wind back in the spring. I've always tightened it as much as I dared but apparently it moved anyway for the first time.

Previously I would tune my TV to Fox, the weakest station, while I was still getting SOME signal (fall//winter/spring). I would turn the volume way up on the TV, open the windows, get on the roof and tweak the antenna around till the sound was steady. Every few years I would have to go up and move it a few inches, but haven't touched it in several years now.

I thought I had it in the sweet spot but I wasn't even close. The antenna is 10 or 12 feet long, and I bet the end has recently moved by around three feet from where I had it.

Knowing that I am south and slightly east of the transmitters, I wouldn't think it would pick up anything at all according to where it's aimed now. But everything's still coming in flawlessly, including Fox, the weakest one.

I will get a couple more clamps from the hardware store one of these days and beef it up. It's the first time in my life I'm watching Fox in the summer! No audio cut-outs or pixelating!
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Old 6-Jul-2023, 11:02 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagwood View Post
I was walking between my barn and house yesterday and just happened to look up. My antenna has moved, by quite a lot. It must have been the wind back in the spring. I've always tightened it as much as I dared but apparently it moved anyway for the first time.

Previously I would tune my TV to Fox, the weakest station, while I was still getting SOME signal (fall//winter/spring). I would turn the volume way up on the TV, open the windows, get on the roof and tweak the antenna around till the sound was steady. Every few years I would have to go up and move it a few inches, but haven't touched it in several years now.

I thought I had it in the sweet spot but I wasn't even close. The antenna is 10 or 12 feet long, and I bet the end has recently moved by around three feet from where I had it.

Knowing that I am south and slightly east of the transmitters, I wouldn't think it would pick up anything at all according to where it's aimed now. But everything's still coming in flawlessly, including Fox, the weakest one.

I will get a couple more clamps from the hardware store one of these days and beef it up. It's the first time in my life I'm watching Fox in the summer! No audio cut-outs or pixelating!
Thanks for the report. Interesting about Fox reception.

Sometimes, in a location like you have, the best signal doesn't always come from the direction you think it should.

I suggest you use an inexpensive Mediasonic HW-130,(or HW-150 like I use) to find the best antenna aim for the best signal quality. Tyler the Antenna Man uses the HW-130 to make antenna comparisons.
https://forum.tvfool.com/showthread....ewpost&t=16815

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDQzvFG3chs
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Last edited by rabbit73; 8-Jul-2023 at 2:13 AM.
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Old 7-Jul-2023, 9:25 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
Thanks for the report. Interesting about Fox reception.

Sometimes, in a location like you have, the best signal doesn't always come from the direction you think it should.

I suggest you use an inexpensive Mediasonic HW-130,(or HW-150 like I use) to find the best antenna aim for the best signal quality. Tyler the Antenna Man uses the HW-130 to make antenna comparisons.
https://forum.tvfool.com/showthread....ewpost&t=16815
Signal direction: Yes, apparently so. Just standing on the ground and holding my iPhone up, the antenna is now pointing about 12? to the east, off of due north.

From memory, it was probably at least that much to the west off of due north before, so quite a big shift of at least 24?.

I checked those links and Googled the model numbers you showed but I'm not sure what I'm looking at. They keep showing a "tuner." I assumed this was some kind of handheld gadget to find the strongest signal.
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Old 8-Jul-2023, 2:04 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagwood View Post
Signal direction: Yes, apparently so. Just standing on the ground and holding my iPhone up, the antenna is now pointing about 12? to the east, off of due north.

From memory, it was probably at least that much to the west off of due north before, so quite a big shift of at least 24?.

I checked those links and Googled the model numbers you showed but I'm not sure what I'm looking at. They keep showing a "tuner." I assumed this was some kind of handheld gadget to find the strongest signal.
Yes it is a converter box/tuner. Tyler uses this one:

https://www.amazon.com/Mediasonic-HO...780923&sr=8-12

I use one like this:

https://www.amazon.com/Mediasonic-Co...8781378&sr=8-4

The screen looks like this when you plug the tuner into the HDMI input of your TV:





Please watch this Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDQzvFG3chs

See also:
TV Antenna Signal Meters - Improve Your Reception with One
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_Cy08x5qeY
Attached Images
File Type: jpg MediasonicHW-150 CH20atDigitalCliff_2.jpg (141.9 KB, 242 views)
File Type: jpg Tyler-How to Add Channels_1.jpg (133.8 KB, 240 views)
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Last edited by rabbit73; 9-Jul-2023 at 12:42 AM.
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Old 11-Jul-2023, 1:28 PM   #19
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Thanks for the help, Rabbit.
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