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Old 25-Jan-2016, 10:34 PM   #1
G-Star
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Best deep fringe outside antenna????

We are inundated with advertisements for cheap inferior Chinese amplified antennas with or without integrated rotors. 150 miles!!!!

Well, I guess I am old fashioned. That and my experience with ham radio antennas makes me believe that first and foremost for my situation I want a BIG bunch of aluminum up in the air. You can't violate the laws of physics. Boom length limits maximum gain available to a design. Whether or not I go with an amplifier is not my first concern. I want maximum gain for UHF channels (and I'd like to get ch 13 too) If after I install a good robust (I'm in Oklahoma subject to wind and sometimes ice) probably long boom antenna and I need more gain to handle multiple locations in the house then a good clean amp will be used.

What I would like from the community is recommendations for the best deep fringe antennas.

My expertise regarding UHF TV reception is severely limited being so remote to my "comfort zone" which is HF, 30MHz and below.

Thanks in advance for any consideration.

Patrick
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Old 26-Jan-2016, 2:20 AM   #2
rabbit73
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You have it right, Patrick; antenna gain comes before amplification. For a ham, money spent on a 3el yagi is better than a linear amp. But for TV reception, adding a preamp near the antenna not only compensates for distribution losses, it makes it possible to receive weaker signals than without a preamp.





Every reception location is unique and requires a custom solution. May we see your tvfool report to suggest the best UHF high gain antennas?

For a UHF only antenna the Antennas Direct 91XG and the DB8e with both panels aimed in the same direction do quite well. If you need a VHF-high/UHF combo the Winegard HD7698P does well.

W4...
ex W2...
ex DL4..
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Last edited by rabbit73; 26-Jan-2016 at 2:41 AM.
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Old 26-Jan-2016, 1:31 PM   #3
rickbb
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My vote goes for the bow tie style antennas like the DB8e. Some of the highest gain antennas you can get. You can even gang 2 of them together with reasonably good results if you need a little extra gain.

For wind load protection nothing beats a mast that has been stabilized with a good guy wire system.

But what's right for you depends on an accurate TV Fool report for you location.
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Old 26-Jan-2016, 1:51 PM   #4
G-Star
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Best Deep Fringe Antenna for Outdoor Installation

Rabbit and Rick, Thanks for your help. I don't understand what my location has to do with the best deep fringe antenna. I understand it would influence a decision on best antenna for the price with acceptable performance in my location and similar figures of merit. Clearly you guys have a much better technical grasp of the problem so let me rely on your judgement.

Since I am buying just one antenna (most likely) and it should last a long time I don't mind buying more performance than the TVFool analysis would indicate is enough.

My house is in a depression so I am planning to put a tripod and mast atop the ridge of the gable roof. The roof ridge is about 30 feet AGL so I would have the antenna at about 35-37 ft AGL, I estimate. I could go higher but want to avoid guying.

What is the longest practical lead-in run length and lowest loss transmission line? If I can remote the antenna sufficiently I can gain some altitude. I can get about 55-60 ft AGL. TVFool results for 30 and 40 ft height were way better than for 50 ft when I ran it. Not sure what that meant.

Here are my coordinates from Google Earth:

Lat 34.982077
Lon -96.947116

I see how the TV fool info and experience together could let you select an antenna likely to meet someone's minimum requirements at the lowest cost and that is a good thing but I would like to know which antennas (intended for residential installation) have the highest gain.

Again guys, thanks for being interested in my installation (I hope I'm not asking too many of all the wrong questions.)

Patrick
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Old 27-Jan-2016, 1:56 PM   #5
rickbb
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" TVFool results for 30 and 40 ft height were way better than for 50 ft when I ran it. Not sure what that meant."


That's why seeing the report would help people to understand your situation. And allow them to make more specific recommendations. A long range solution for you maybe totally wrong for someone else.

There's more to it than mere distance and antenna gain ratings. The terrain profile, ground effect reflections, tropospheric effects/reflections the list goes on.

As you have seen height makes a difference, and the TVFool reports does not know anything about trees, near by buildings or other local objects that can cause reception issues.
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Old 27-Jan-2016, 7:53 PM   #6
rabbit73
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Quote:
What is the longest practical lead-in run length and lowest loss transmission line?
If you don't use a preamp, the coax loss directly subtracts from the antenna gain. The attenuation factor for coax increases with frequency, so the loss for UHF channels is greater than for VHF channels. It is about 6 dB per 100 ft of RG6 for UHF TV channels.

When you use a preamp, it compensates for the transmission line loss by making the signal stronger before the loss. The preamp should be near the antenna to keep the coax loss between the antenna and the preamp input low.

Most systems can tolerate RG6 runs of up to 200 feet, depending upon the current draw of the preamp. The signal travels on the surface of the center conductor; the DC current for the preamp uses the whole cross section of the center conductor. RG6 with a copper clad steel center conductor is usually OK up to 100 feet; switch to RG6 with a solid copper center conductor up to 200 feet. RG11 and hardline are used for longer runs.

Since the preamp is at the headend of the system, it determines the system noise figure, so the distribution losses after it become less important. To increase your understanding read through this thread:

http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=109

Quote:
I don't understand what my location has to do with the best deep fringe antenna.
Quote:
My house is in a depression so I am planning to put a tripod and mast atop the ridge of the gable roof.
As an example, if the signals are coming in over a ridge line, the tilt feature of the 91XG might be useful. It would allow you to tilt the front end of the antenna up to intercept the incoming signals.

Quote:
but I would like to know which antennas (intended for residential installation) have the highest gain.
The Antennas Direct DB8e is the current champion for a high gain UHF antenna. The VHF section of the Winegard HD7698P is near the top of the list; it is also one of the highest gain VHF-High/UHF combo antennas.

There used to be a good selection of VHF-only antennas, but they have been discontinued. The MCM 30-2475 and 30-2476 imports have just become available. They are inexpensive, have poor assembly instructions, but perform OK.
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/produc...-2475-/30-2475
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/produc...-2476-/30-2476

Thanks for the coordinates. Your report would look like this:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...5134c727dda50f

It looks like you have a good selection of networks at 320 degrees magnetic. Most of your channels are UHF, but ABC and PBS are on VHF-High real channels 7 and 13. You can use a VHF-High/UHF combo antenna or use separate VHF and UHF antennas.

Sometimes strong local FM signals can interfere with TV reception. Taking a look at an FM report can influence decisions about an antenna system for TV reception. Here is your fmfool report:
tmp/7e4636a14a/Radar-FM.png
KYKC -24.1 dBm doesn't look like a serious threat, but you should have an FM filter.

If you want to protect your privacy, you can now delete your coordinates.
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Last edited by rabbit73; 28-Feb-2016 at 6:36 PM.
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Old 28-Jan-2016, 12:30 AM   #7
G-Star
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Thanks for the insight. I wasn't properly concerned by the prospects of FM interference but will now take measures.

I can get some Heliax hardline with much lower losses at UHF freqs. Unless I goofed up reading the charts that would out perform RG-6 significantly. I have a ride on trencher and can bury PVC conduit for the hardline. I know some folks go direct burial but that would make me nervous. This would be if I needed the extra height for the antenna.

Home run from all bedrooms, sitting room, great room etc come together next to my electrical entrance panels in an attached shop. All this Coax is RG-6. Max runs do not exceed 100 ft. I used this coax with splitter combiners to get Sat TV to anywhere and to get sigs from RF controller to sat rcvr, again using splitter combiners to ship the RF control sigs from the RF remote to the Sat box over the same coax delivering the TV sig to TV 2. Couldn't go direct with RF remote due to multiple steel reinforced concrete walls in the path.

Just out of curiosity I called both Chanel Master and Winegard and asked what their highest gain antenna is. CM said their model 5020 and Winegard said their 8200U. I had picked the HD7698P and gave passing glances at the 8 bay bow tie.

I will take a good look at your picks.

Patrick
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Old 28-Jan-2016, 1:10 AM   #8
rabbit73
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The Channel Master 5020 and the Winegard HD8200U are good antennas, but they cover VHF-Low, real channels 2-6, which means big long elements. I don't see any VHF-Low channels on your report that are strong enough to consider.
VHF-Low, real channels 2-6
VHF-High, real channels 7-13
UHF, real channels 14-51

Some years from now, after the reverse FCC channel auction, there might be some VHF-Low channels in your area, but that is waaay too soon to worry about.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q...chanel+auction

This "auction" will force some broadcasters to VHF-Low channels where the noise level is high and getting higher, making reliable reception of digital TV difficult. The spectrum that will be taken away from broadcast television will be given to commercial interests as was done with the UHF TV channels above 51, now being used by cellular transmitters.

These cellular transmitters are beginning to cause interference to TV reception of the upper UHF TV channels, making it necessary to install 4G LTE filters for satisfactory TV reception. Antennas Direct has anticipated this problem and has incorporated a 4G LTE filer in its new Juice preamp, but had to eliminate the FM filter because of lack of space. Maybe their next design will have room for both.
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Last edited by rabbit73; 28-Jan-2016 at 1:43 AM.
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Old 28-Jan-2016, 2:18 PM   #9
G-Star
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Unless I am missing something, in which case don't worry about my ego, just tell me the facts, I will, after waiting a while for your reply, order the Winegard HD7698P. Also what is your suggestion for an amp.

Patrick
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Old 28-Jan-2016, 6:18 PM   #10
G-Star
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I shopped around a little bit ignoring any sources I have no personal experience with and can have the Winegard HD7698P shipped to my house for a total Paypal amount of $109.99 from Home Depot. Amazon wanted $126.99. Once I get some help deciding what amp I would want and a recommendation on the FM filter I will be getting close to being able to git 'er done.

Patrick
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Old 28-Jan-2016, 7:52 PM   #11
rabbit73
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After taking a second look, I still think the 7698 is right for you. Maybe ADTech will stop by and double check my analysis. He's pretty sharp, and suggests the right tool for the job no matter who makes it.

Some people have trouble folding out the VHF elements in the correct order. The VHF section is a log-periodic design; the elements should alternate as indicated in the instructions.
Quote:
Also what is your suggestion for an amp.
Channel Master 7778, has an FM filter
Antennas Direct Juice, resistant to overload, has 4G LTE filter but no FM filter, FM filter can be added if needed

other preamps available
Channel Master 7777, high gain, for weak signal areas only, easily overloaded, maybe for you?
RCA TVPRAMP1R, inexpensive, has a history of quality control problems, otherwise OK
Winegard LNA200, was good until they redesigned it to meet price point of big box stores
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Last edited by rabbit73; 28-Jan-2016 at 8:34 PM.
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Old 27-Feb-2016, 3:48 PM   #12
G-Star
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I installed a 5 ft tripod astride the peak of my 12:12 pitch gable roof with ridge at 30 ft AGL and installed the 7698 on a 6 ft mast (galvanized steel chain link fence post) aiming it by guess and by gosh via the compass app of my helper's smart phone.

I ran the quad shield RG-6 to the ground block previously used by the Dish Sat TV so I didn't have to do any wiring inside the house as the two used locations were the same as were used for Sat TV. I cut o0ff te excess and put on a new F connector and waterproofed the connector with electrical tape and tie wraps. Both TV's (using one splitter) got 28 stations but several were pixilated at least part of the time. I repurposed a 12 dB amp previously used in the Sat TV lashup and put it ahead of the splitter. Reran both TV scans and both get 34 rock solid stations. The cluster of stations I aimed at in OKC have a spread of azimuths of only 3 degrees. I skipped the rotator install.

I then installed my new Magnazox DVR with DVD player/burner which has 2 tuners and can record two shows simultaneously to DVD or its internal Terrabyte or an external USB connected drive. It kept trying to use the non existing external drive and only stations that were xx-1 had good audio. XX-2, XX-3, etc were pinched, tinny, and several dB down. This was live or as recorded and played back from a DVD from off the air.

Called tech support, tried a couple more things and tech support emailed me a pre-payed shipping label to return the unit. they will send me a new unit. Arghhh, infantile failure... Oh well, just a few weeks and I will be doing delayed time shifted viewing of commercial free TV (via fast forward.)

Anyone wonder how a mid 70's guy got up 30 ft AGL on a 45 degree slope roof?
28 ft extension ladder laying flat on the roof and a helper standing on the less dangerously sloped porch roof with one foot preventing the ladder from skiing down the roof.

The 3 sticky both sides sealant pieces purchased to seal the holes in the roof were to fit a smaller tripod and didn't cover the wider hole spread of the 5 ft tripod (vs 3 foot tripod.) The three footer has two holes per swivel foot but the five footer has three each. Lags spun too easily so I drilled 5/8 holes and used 1/4 inch toggle bolts, three per leg. I use GE 50 year silicone sealant, generously under, on, and around the feet and fasteners.

Thanks to all who responded. I got 'er done and with luck everything I put up on the roof will last a good long time. Oh... The SAT TV guy grounded the coax ground block to a breaker box for my stand by generator. Meets code, I guess but doesn't meet my requirements so I put an 8 ft copper clad ground rod in and hooked that to their ground connection.

Thanks again,

Patrick
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Old 29-Feb-2016, 5:24 PM   #13
Blackbeen
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Could you tell me if the Antennas Direct Juice AC adapter is 12vdc 200ma? I have a cpa-19 pre-amplifier & I believe the adapter died, I live in a Apt & don't have easy access to the pre-amp so if the issue is with that it will have to wait until I move to a house later this year. I was wondering if I could use the Juice AC inserter in the short run as Antennas Direct is sending me one in replacement, I was considering grabbing a 12vdc 200ma adapter off ebay or somewhere else & splicing it in but if I could use the Juice one I won't bother.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
After taking a second look, I still think the 7698 is right for you. Maybe ADTech will stop by and double check my analysis. He's pretty sharp, and suggests the right tool for the job no matter who makes it.

Some people have trouble folding out the VHF elements in the correct order. The VHF section is a log-periodic design; the elements should alternate as indicated in the instructions.

Channel Master 7778, has an FM filter
Antennas Direct Juice, resistant to overload, has 4G LTE filter but no FM filter, FM filter can be added if needed

other preamps available
Channel Master 7777, high gain, for weak signal areas only, easily overloaded, maybe for you?
RCA TVPRAMP1R, inexpensive, has a history of quality control problems, otherwise OK
Winegard LNA200, was good until they redesigned it to meet price point of big box stores
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Old 29-Feb-2016, 11:24 PM   #14
ADTech
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The JUICE and the CPA19 can use the same power adapter. Works fine, I've done it numerous times.

If you plug the CPA19 into the JUICE's power adapter and the green LED on the adapter goes out, the CPA19 is defective.
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Old 29-Feb-2016, 11:51 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADTech View Post
The JUICE and the CPA19 can use the same power adapter. Works fine, I've done it numerous times.

If you plug the CPA19 into the JUICE's power adapter and the green LED on the adapter goes out, the CPA19 is defective.
How common is it for the Pre-amp to burn but over the adapter? I've read quite a few negative reviews of JUICE not working or going bad in a short period of time but its hard to tell if its an issue with the Pre-amp or a shorted out adapter.
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Old 1-Mar-2016, 1:46 AM   #16
ADTech
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I test all returned JUICE amps myself. Out of about four dozen returned in the last three months, I've found two defective amps, two more that had damaged coax connectors (white insulator had been pulled out), and two defective power inserters, both of which should never have gotten out of the factory (assembly errors). That's out of about a thousand units sold.

Quite frankly, the bulk of negative reviews are not due to a hardware fault. They're due to either a product misapplication, unrealistic expectations, or an error in execution. Of course, it's always the product's fault....
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Old 1-Mar-2016, 6:24 AM   #17
Blackbeen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADTech View Post
I test all returned JUICE amps myself. Out of about four dozen returned in the last three months, I've found two defective amps, two more that had damaged coax connectors (white insulator had been pulled out), and two defective power inserters, both of which should never have gotten out of the factory (assembly errors). That's out of about a thousand units sold.

Quite frankly, the bulk of negative reviews are not due to a hardware fault. They're due to either a product misapplication, unrealistic expectations, or an error in execution. Of course, it's always the product's fault....
Well I didn't even notice that The Juice replacement was already at my door, so I hooked up the inserter & plugged it in, happy to see a green light I thought I was good to go & gave my TV a scan, unfortunately, even with the green light on the adapter it scans the same local 20 channels (when working I normally get 40 on a bad night), the only difference with this inserter is it scans the same 20 adapter plugged in or not, with the old one it would actually only scan 9 plugged in but 20 power off, regardless I assume the CPA19 is bad (green light on or not), I wish I could get to the roof to test the Juice but it may have to wait until I move.

Last edited by Blackbeen; 1-Mar-2016 at 6:26 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 1-Mar-2016, 11:15 AM   #18
ADTech
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The green LED on the power adapter indicates only that the adapter is providing power at that point. It doesn't mean the power is actually reaching the amp.

If you get the same results with the adapter powered as un-powered, that usually means that amplifier is either un-powered or defective and is now a 20+ dB attenuator.
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Old 1-Mar-2016, 4:24 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADTech View Post
The green LED on the power adapter indicates only that the adapter is providing power at that point. It doesn't mean the power is actually reaching the amp.

If you get the same results with the adapter powered as un-powered, that usually means that amplifier is either un-powered or defective and is now a 20+ dB attenuator.
What does it mean to be a 20+ dB attenuator? and out of curiosity, would the fact that the old inserter worked better unpowered indicate that the adapter is bad or something else?

Last edited by Blackbeen; 1-Mar-2016 at 4:27 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 1-Mar-2016, 5:26 PM   #20
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I got an ad Solid Signal for the Televes DigiNova Boss, seemed kinda interesting as a possible quick fix, I have a J-mount outside the northbound window of my 3rd floor apt that I used to use with the DB4e antenna before I chimney mounted it, its rather expensive though given I plan on doing it up right with a Winegard HD8200U on a 50' tower when I move into a house, but I'm really missing my Detroit channels.
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