Your help/input is Greatly Appreciated!

[rwilson1206]

Here is my signal info:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...b7c88e87010cdf

I live in north canton ohio, trying to pickup up signals in cleveland, ohio 60miles away (40miles away broadcast). I have a 40' tall guyed tower at the back of my house braced off with mounting brackets at the house. At the very top of the tower is an old UHF single bay antenna with twin lead and standoffs every 1' o.c. or so. It works ok, I climbed to the very top of the tower, and rotated it around (UHF antenna), tried to get the best signal. I wasnt completly happy with the results, so its my backup antenna for the other two tvs. I bought a Phillips MANT940 antenna (18db, 20 mile range) and mounted it at around 30' on the side of the tower with 5/8" coax. I am pretty happy with it, as it gets channels broadcast from cleveland (330degrees) and youngstown (45degrees?). It only services one TV (I found adding a splitter looses channels). Sometimes I get digital breakup and some good channels only come in at night. It came with an 18db in-line amplifier, no other amplifiers work with it. I would like to get all channels in all the time with no breakup. I was considering getting the Channel Master 4228HD 8-Bay (60 mile range)(or a better antenna than what I have now if its even possible) and replacing the Phillips MANT940. I would be side mounting it, because its just to dangerous to go all the way to the top of the tower (its old and rusty), although its been climbed all the way to the underside of the pole mounted old UHF antenna at the very top. Is this wise, or is my Phillips about as good as it gets? My Phillips was $30 and this antenna is $60 with 50' of coax.http://www.summitsource.com/channel-...le-p-7809.html. I dont want to break the bank, but like I said im pretty happy now, allthough I get some digital breakup and not all the channels from cleveland come it 100% of the time. Thanks for your help...

[rwilson1206]

Any one to help?

[Tower Guy]

Originally Posted by rwilson1206

Any one to help?

If I lived there I'd install a Winegard HD 7696P on the top of the tower aimed at Cleveland and a 4221 aimed at the local stations. Each of the antennas would have a separate preamp, the Winegard HDP-269. I'd use an A/B switch to reconfigure which stations I wanted to watch.

I hope that your HDTV or converter box has the add-channel feature. If not, you'd have to be quick with switching the A/B switch while the system is scanning through the channels.

[Dave Loudin]

For Cleveland's Fox and CBS stations, you need a VHF antenna (ixnay on the 4228), so Tower Guy's recommendation holds. You might also consider an AntennaCraft HBU-33. The CM 4221 will be plenty of antenna for the Youngstown stations, all of which are on UHF. Combining the two antennas is usually not recommended, as it is difficult to avoid unintended cancellations between them. However, since the two directions are almost exactly 90 degrees apart (implying that very little signal from direction 1 will be present in antenna 2 and vice-versa), you could experiment by trying it.

No matter, you will end up with much more reliable reception than with the Philips antenna.

[mtownsend]

Hello and welcome!

For the VHF performance, both Tower Guy and Dave Loudin are right in suggesting a combo antenna. The problem you will find is that these combo antennas (and probably most antennas with any real VHF performance) like to be center-mounted. That is, they are usually designed to clamp onto a mast somewhere in the middle of their boom. They aren't made to be side mounted on a tower.

The combo antennas being recommended will definitely outperform the Philips antenna, but they would ideally be mounted on the mast at the top of your tower.



BTW, you may also want to re-run your analysis using an exact location. The report you posted is for a generic city-level analysis. Since some of the channels are being shown with 1Edge and 2Edge diffraction, it makes me wonder if the terrain blockage is better or worse at your exact location (sometimes local hills can make a difference).

[rwilson1206]

Thanks for all your help so far... I really want to nail this down because I will be purchasing whatever you tell me to and I'm wanting to do it soon...

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...b7c835a804386f

Heres the signals at my exact address...

One question is I only use the phillips MANT940 and I get signals from both cleveland and youngstown, and I only have one antenna pointed about 330 degrees. Are two antennas really necessary? I suppose for the optimal config. But it seems like combining antennas is not a good idea, coupled with the fact that the one guys setup will cost me about $200. I'm not sure if I wanted to do that. Like I said, I get probably 40 channels right now, FOX cleveland-youngstown.NBC cleveland-youngstown. FOX cleveland comes in 70% of time. CBS cleveland-youngstown. CBS cleveland comes in 30% of the time. ABC cleveland-youngstown. ABC youngstown spotty sometimes. ION, PBS (cleveland and young) WVIZ. WUAB cleveland and youngstown. And a few more not mentioned. I dont know if I can get to the mast right now or not, its awfully high, I probably could get to the underside of it and try and take it down. Someone suggested that putting a weighty antenna at the top would cause the mast to bend (I personally think it would be fine). The mast is 1" dia. or so, 3-4' high. Attached are some pics. The back of the house faces south. I would like the option of something side mounted to be a possibility, just it case I cant install it at the top. When I add a splitter to the mix of my phillips, I lose channels, so ideally I would like to add a four way spilitter to the new antenna setup. Would this be an option without losing channels?

With this additional info having been said, is there any other input you can give me. I have a phillips 18db signal amplifier now, if I had to throw that in the setup somewhere, and another 18db inline that the phillips antenna came with, although I dont know if its esp for that antenna, I think it is.

Thanks for all your help.

Hopefully I can get that mast down from the underside of it, its just a little scary at the top, and the tower is rusted out in a few spots, but it seems sturdy. Would you guys feel fine going up there? I have been up before and so has someone else, the other guy went a little higher though (underside of mast). The first antenna config with combining two antennas I will do if I have to, but if I can pick up youngstown with a phillips MANT940 pointed at 330 degrees, with a 20 mile range, shouldnt I be able to just improve with signal with the Winegard HD 7696P or a AntennaCraft HBU-33 pointed toward cleveland and call it a day? Would I want to still get a preamp? Will it be possible to take down the mast from the underside of it and put up the new antenna without going any higher than the underside of the mast. Come to think of it, its pretty scary going to the underside of the mast (wouldnt be at all if I knew for 100% certain the tower was safe). Any side mount options, or should I man up and put up one of the two antennas mentioned at the top.

Also, there is NOT enough room to drive a truck at either side of my house to rent a bucket and install it that way...

Thanks alot for the help...

[rwilson1206]

Tower-Antenna Pics Attached

The tree has been trimmed, so it wont be an issue (hopefully), the tree is south, and the antenna points north.

The VHF antenna you see is gone, makes me wish I didnt get rid of it, I thought ALL channels were broadcast in UHF. Will the Cleveland stations still broadcast in VHF go to UHF soon?

[rwilson1206]

Tower-Antenna Pics Attached

[Dave Loudin]

There's a tutorial somewhere that explains the Noise Margin figure. Applying that to your situation, the MANT has very little, if any gain at UHF, and probably -6 to -10dB gain at VHF. These figures add to your NM. The internal amplifier probably has a 5dB noise figure that subtracts from NM. The 18dB serves only to overcome cable loss in this case. Combining these values to the NM of VHF stations WOIO (14dB) and WJW (20dB), and you get near 0dB and 6dB net noise margins. Protecting against random fades usually requires having a 10dB or higher NM, you can see why you're getting the results you have.

Here's a radical thought: since you have plenty of UHF signal, the MANT provides enough net MN to work reliably. Since the antenna is small, with little directivity, it is picking up Youngstown and Cleveland UHF acceptably, save for WYTV. Why not build a simple bow-tie antenna scaled for VHF, mount it on the tower towards Cleveland, and join it with the MANT with a USVJ? You'll have only $15 or so invested in such a solution.

[Tower Guy]

Originally Posted by rwilson1206

Are two antennas really necessary?

I would like the option of something side mounted to be a possibility, just it case I cant install it at the top.

I have a phillips 18db signal amplifier now, if I had to throw that in the setup somewhere, and another 18db inline that the phillips antenna came with, although I dont know if its esp for that antenna, I think it is.

Two antennas or a rotor, your choice.

The 4221 can be side mounted, but it won't pick up WJW or WOIO. The only VHF antenna designed to be side mounted is the Antennas Direct C5. If you opt for the C5, you'll need three antennas.

Amplifiers are fickle. A good amp can help pick up a weak station, but two amplifiers or the wrong selection, and you loose the advantage.

[rwilson1206]

So what would you do tower guy, build a bowtie and combine it with my MANT?

or do what you said below?

[QUOTE=Tower Guy;789]If I lived there I'd install a Winegard HD 7696P on the top of the tower aimed at Cleveland and a 4221 aimed at the local stations. Each of the antennas would have a separate preamp, the Winegard HDP-269. I'd use an A/B switch to reconfigure which stations I wanted to watch.QUOTE]

Does this suggestion still hold for my case?

what if I first tried out a simple bowtie, and if that doesnt work buy the winegard? If I do the winegard/4221 or bowtie/MANT combo, can you suggest an A/B or USVJ? switch for me, as Ive never done that before?

Dave would you still go with the AntennaCraft HBU-33 and 4221 combo?

Or is building the bowtie and combining what I have the first thing to try?

Also, another idea, if I did the MANT/bowtie combo, would I want two preamps and a USVJ? Just an FYI, when I switch out the 18db inline amp that the MANT came with, with my other 18db amp, I get no signals at all. Will adding a preamp near the antenna work with the MANT? Will a preamp work with a bow tie antenna?

What I'm looking for from you guys is "if you want to do it right, this is what you must do..." With all the suggestions Im not sure EXACTLY what to do.

The bowtie/MANT combo seems attractive, but thats because of money.

Maybe there is no exact, just trial and error, but what would your best guess optimal setup be somewhat considering money?

thanks again...

[Dave Loudin]

Honestly, I'd try the VHF bow-tie first. You're in the situation for UHF that you don't need much gain and you need a practically omnidirectional antenna. Fortunately, those properties go together, and that's apparently how the elements inside the MANT are behaving. Stepping up to a more directive antenna, even the smallest from the commercial vendors, will no longer get both markets at once. You'll have to get a rotator or two antennas, and you'll only catch a couple more channels. The bow-tie will fix WOIO and WJW and maybe deliver reliable reception of WTOV (9) and, on occasion, WTRF (7).

The above advice is predicated on you getting acceptable UHF reception from stations as weak as WFMJ (NBC Youngstown).

[rwilson1206]

Ok, thats what I'll do, should I get two preamps and a USVJ or just a USVJ? Dont know how to make a bowtie, I'm sure its simple, should I research it and do it myself, or just buy one, if I should buy one, can you suggest one for me? Upon looking it up, I think I would rather buy one, I was initially thinking of a coat hanger type deal, but it looks a little more involved than that.

I thought about it some more, what if I utililized the single bay uhf at the top of the tower and combined it to the MANT940, with amps on each one before I combine them (do they make a uhf/uhf combiner?).

Then mount the new bowtie antenna between the two (5' o.c. for each), and combine them all with a USVJ.

Would this work? Should I get any pre-amps?

Attached is a diagram of what I am talking about...

One other thing, if I wanted to in the future, would it be wise to replace my MANT with a 4221? I can see the 4221 has better specs, but its not omnidirectional like the MANT? Keep in mind my MANT is in the horizontal position and pointed at 330 degrees, and yet I am recieving youngstown stations. Will the 4221 pointed at the 330 degree position outperform the MANT and recieve youngstown stations?

Thanks, and we are nearing the end of my posts. Sorry to be a bother... I will post my results once I hook my new stuff up. I am just waiting on the final answers from you and I will buy everything ASAP. Where is the best place to buy? solidsignal.com? any others?

[Dave Loudin]

If the MANT is delivering the UHF reception you need (meaning you get reliable reception of all the channels you want), do not replace it. Although other antennas have higher gain, no single antenna will give you the total performance you've achieved now. Replace the MANT and you now need to mount at the top of the tower with a rotor or use two antennas - and you won't do much more than fix WYTV and catch a couple Pittsburgh stations. Again, I base this part of my advice on thinking you see the Youngstown stations reliably. If that's not the case, then I'd fall back to the 4221/HBU33 combination.

For the bow-tie/MANT operation: mount the bow-tie, use a balun to connect it to coax cable, and run a short piece to the VHF-in port of the USVJ. Run a short piece of coax from the MANT to the UHF-in port of the USVJ. Run a single coax line down from the USVJ to your TV. Try it without pre-amp, and if the cable loss is too much, then add a pre-amp. (USVJ is an inexpensive specialized combiner - search at SolidSignal.com or other sites)

One thing you DEFINITELY don't want to do is combine the MANT with another UHF antenna. You will end up with worse results. Also, a 4221 or any other antenna we have been talking about pointed at 330 will not get much from Youngstown. These antennas are very insensitive at 90 degrees from the main direction.

[Dave Loudin]

Here is a link for a simple VHF bow-tie design.

[Tower Guy]

Originally Posted by rwilson1206

Does this suggestion still hold for my case?

Yes. You can try it without preamps first . The troublesome stations would be WOIO and WYTV.

[rwilson1206]

Quick update guys, climbed the tower after work, raised MANT 5' feet higher, pointed at about 330 degrees in the horizontal position (does this matter, vertical or horizontal). Every channel I want comes in (6:30pm) Except, as stated above WYTV and WOIO. They try to come in but with digital breakup, they do come in later at night though, pretty good. FOX cleveland has a digital breakup every 5 min or so, the smallest amount if any. Everything I just said has pretty much always been the case for the most part, just wanted 100% reliable. Would adding a preamp to the MANT work? I cant believe it picks up youngstown though when thinking about it (pointed 330degrees). So could I add a preamp, keep in mind it has to have the 18db inline hooked up to it.

Thanks

[Dave Loudin]

Not knowing what's inside the MANT, I can't say for sure, but I would bet vertical is the default. However, what you're doing works - don't change it!

Additional amps WILL NOT help with WOIO, WYTV, or any other station. Remember that those will only overcome cable loss, not improve the ratio of signal to noise. (Refer back to the noise margin post.) Only a better antenna for VHF will help.

I know you're itching to do better with UHF, but you've got to ask yourself if it's worth the bother. There's no way to avoid the two-antenna route with the added complexity. Tower Guy's or my recommendations will work - look for the best deal.

[rwilson1206]

Thanks for the help Dave, I was just thinking its pretty generous of you to reply to everyone one of my posts. Appreciate it...

One other thing, then what is the difference between an amp and a pre-amp, how do I know if I am experiencing cable loss? Is an amp for when you add splitters into a system? And a pre-amp for cable runs? If I get little breakups here and there, is that due to cable loss?

Another thing, I dont know if I want to build my own antenna or not, not 100% interested, work full time, school part time... not that it will take that long once I do everything, but I was trying to find an old-school bowtie vhf antenna to buy. I can't find one. I can find a uhf bowtie, is that the same thing? Just put it in the vhf female end of the USVJ? Would an indoor dipole vhf antenna work, just mount it outside, I read in a post somewhere else that it works, Just keep the dipole perpendicular to the source.

FYI: I rescanned and picked up 2-1. Its CBS, which is the same as WOIO, and I get CBS youngstown too.

All and all I get 47 channels with the MANT, 20 of which are crappy, religious, pbs, wviz, fluff (IMOP). No diff than cable. : )
Thats why we do this right. Because we are cheap. I like no cable bill though, I also have netflix streaming through my xbox and my pc hooked up to my HDTV with an HDMI video card, so I can go to nbc.com, abc.com, etc., and watch streaming HD. Its basically a ghetto DVR.

I still want to do the bowtie though...

[Dave Loudin]

Originally Posted by rwilson1206

Thanks for the help Dave, I was just thinking its pretty generous of you to reply to everyone one of my posts. Appreciate it...

You're welcome! Your situation is both an antenna design problem and a systems engineering problem, which is doubly interesting for me!

Originally Posted by rwilson1206

One other thing, then what is the difference between an amp and a pre-amp? Is an amp for when you add splitters into a system? And a pre-amp for cable runs?

A pre-amp is an RF amplifier that's installed at the antenna prior to a long cable run to the receiver. A pre-amp can be used to restore loss due to splitters. A ditribution amp is a combination of amplifier and splitter into one box.

Originally Posted by rwilson1206

How do I know if I am experiencing cable loss? If I get little breakups here and there, is that due to cable loss?

You will always suffer loss in the connection between antenna and receiver. The amount of loss depends on the type and length of cable used. The dropouts you see are not due to cable loss - you do not have enough noise margin to protect against random fades.

I know it's hard to believe, but once you have enough amplification in the line to overcome cable loss, additional amplification will not improve reception quality. You need to capture more signal from the air, as was discussed in the post on noise margin.

Originally Posted by rwilson1206

Another thing, I dont know if I want to build my own antenna or not, not 100% interested, work full time, school part time... not that it will take that long once I do everything, but I was trying to find an old-school bowtie vhf antenna to buy. I can't find one. I can find a uhf bowtie, is that the same thing? Just put it in the vhf female end of the USVJ? Would an indoor dipole vhf antenna work, just mount it outside, I read in a post somewhere else that it works, Just keep the dipole perpendicular to the source.

It is a shame that someone does not market a VHF bowtie. I suppose the thinking is that there's a very small market for such a beast. Commercially available UHF bowties are obviously smaller, so performance at high-VHF is less than you'd get from one properly sized for VHF. So, yes, you could connect a UHF bowtie to the VHF input of the USVJ. I don't think you'll be pleased with the results. Using an indoor VHF dipole could work, too. Keep the elements horizontal and aim the perpendicular towards Cleveland. Just keep in mind that any "stuff" in the base of that type of antenna would be a bit sketchy for outdoor use.

Originally Posted by rwilson1206

FYI: I rescanned and picked up 2-1. Its CBS, which is the same as WOIO, and I get CBS youngstown too.

That's KDKA, Pittsburgh!