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Old 20-Sep-2015, 5:13 PM   #1
fusionteck
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Reception

My equipment is as follows Terrestrial Digital 91XG UHF TV Antenna (91XG)
Winegard YA 1713 Prostar 1000 10 El. Hi-Band VHF TV Antenna (YA-Winegard AP 4800 Chromstar 2000 Series UHF Pre Amplifier (AP4800) 1
Antennas Direct EU385-CF UHF / VHF TV Antenna Combiner (EU385-CF) 1 Perfect Vision PV23-222 Wide Band 2-Way Splitter 5-2300 Mhz (PV23-222)
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8e03cccd493fef

What gets me is there are 3 towers on queen an hill in seattle
4,5,7,the signal for channel 4 is 83 the signal for 5 is 62 and channel 7 fades in and out, I don't get it they are all together also channel 33 comes in great and its the furthest away
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Old 20-Sep-2015, 7:02 PM   #2
ADTech
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Distance and co-location (or not) are not the relevant factors. If you go look at the combination of transmitting antenna height and their respective radiation patterns, as well as the operating frequencies and signal path for each station, it makes perfect sense.

KOMO operates 1 million watts omni-directiona from QA Hill from a height of almost 1,000' ASL.

KING operates at almost 1 million watts, also from QA Hill, but a bit lower, just over 900' ASL. however, they use a bidirectional antenna focused north-south which only sends 154 kW in your direction.

KIRO also operates at a million watts from almost 1000' from QA Hill, but they use a directional antenna focused away from you so that a mere 82 kW is sent in your direction.

With that big honkin' hill in front of you, the two TV stations on the next hill over, a high gain UHF preamp that overloads pretty easily, and the required aim of the 91XG, it's surprising you do get what you do.
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Old 21-Sep-2015, 1:31 AM   #3
fusionteck
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ADTECH
Thanks for the info that was very informative
the two stations on the hill next to me is KPCQ relay tower and the other is a KTBW
they come in @ a whopping 92 signal strength
I use to get KIRO consistently until about a year ago KWPX comes in great and its the furthest but it goes right down the valley of those two mountains
Anyway got any ideas about what I may use to get KING and KIRO maybe a large multidirectional or am I just SOL
My antenna is 30 ft up

Last edited by fusionteck; 21-Sep-2015 at 1:36 AM. Reason: More info
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Old 21-Sep-2015, 2:34 AM   #4
ADTech
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One thing I've learned is that some locations simply are not fixable. Keep that in mind.

My suggestion would be to either gang two 91XGs side by side or swap it for a DB8e. I'd also dump the Winegard amp and replace it with something with a lower noise figure and superior overload resistance. If we had our Juice available, that would be the suggested amp. However, since it's out of stock for a while, my second choice would be to re-purpose an Electroline EDA2100 distribution amp in a mast-mounted, remote powered configuration. It has a very good noise figure and you won't overload it. As a matter of fact, I'd probably do that first.
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Old 21-Sep-2015, 3:59 PM   #5
Tower Guy
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I'd say that your choice of components is near optimum for your location. There are no UHF stations strong enough to overload the Winegard 4800 amplifier. Yet the two super strong VHF stations could overload that amp it if the VHF/UHF filtering in the 4800 is inadequate. KYFQ FM 91.7 is also extremely strong at roughly -22 dbm at your location. Again the filtering of the amp should minimize that, as should the smart way that you've combined the VHF antenna after the UHF preamp.

To rule out a problem from VHF or FM, try just the 91XG and the preamp and see if KIRO comes back. If so, you are chasing down interference which is likely caused by overload. If not, trees may have grown in front of your antenna. You can search for a location that has fewer trees.

Another potential solution for you is changing the antenna height. Your signals from KIRO likely refract from Green MT, which is 3 miles from you. The angle up to Green Mt is 4.3 degrees. I use www.heywhatsthat.com to calculate elevation angles. Some have found that tilting a 91XG helps. I prefer to find an optimum height where the ground reflections cause the signal to elevate upwards. In your case the math says that optimum heights for channel 39 are 5', 15' and perhaps 30', but that's for flat ground in front of the antenna.
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Old 23-Sep-2015, 2:29 AM   #6
fusionteck
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ADTech and Tower Guy
You guys Rock and really appreciate your wealth of information
As much as I like Free TV it is also a challenge and it may be as good as it gets
I will digest the information you guys have given me and figure out what to try First
I did find it interesting about Ganging two 91XG
And I do plan on extending my heath to approx. 40 ft
With that said what is your take on the Denny's HD Stacker
Also now that I think about it when I adjusted the height between the VHF and UHF antenna is about the time I started seeing a difference
Thanks for your input guys
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Old 23-Sep-2015, 2:49 PM   #7
rabbit73
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KOMO ABC, real channel 38, virtual channel 4.1, NM 1.1 dB
KING NBC, real channel 48, virtual channel 5.1, NM -6.9 dB
KIRO CBS, real channel 39, virtual channel 7.1, NM -7.4 dB

Do I see solar panels on your roof? See attachment 5.

Inverters can create interference for TV signals. Modified sine wave inverters (should be called modified square wave inverters) create more EMI than sine wave inverters. The interference can be conducted, radiated, or both. Some users need to move the antenna away from the inverter and run the TV on a small sine wave inverter like the Exeltech XP125. (I read Home Power magazine.)

Terrain profiles for KING:





And here is the coverage map; not much signal at the fringe:



The results for KOMO and KIRO are similar.

In order to keep the strong VHF and FM signals out of the preamp and tuner, I suggest you try this:
Code:
 91XG > UVSJ > AP4800 > 
                       \
                       AD EU385 > coax > power inserter > TV
                       /
YA1713 Yagi > FM trap >
The second UVSJ between the 91XG and the preamp attenuates the FM and VHF signals, but allows the UHF signals to pass through. FMFOOL report in attachment 4.
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/produc...-FM-88-/33-341
https://www.antennasdirect.com/store...on_filter.html

If KTBW is too strong for the preamp, switch to a preamp that resists overload better, as ADTech and Tower Guy suggested. ADTech did some preamp tests in a strong signal area that show the Winegard Chromstar UHF preamp overloads easily which harms the weak signals:

A Building Can Ruin Your Whole Day!
http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?p=50328





It looks like with the preamp about half the signals were damaged beyond recovery. The weakest signals are the first to go when you have overload.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg fusionteckHDFp2aKING.JPG (61.7 KB, 1010 views)
File Type: jpg fusionteckHDFp2bKING.JPG (118.2 KB, 993 views)
File Type: jpg fusionteckHDFc2KING.JPG (93.9 KB, 1072 views)
File Type: jpg fusionteckHDF FM.JPG (108.3 KB, 407 views)
File Type: jpg fusionteckHDFaerial.JPG (105.3 KB, 403 views)
File Type: png ADTech parkig lot1 (2).png (193.2 KB, 1152 views)
File Type: png ADTech parking lot2 (2).png (203.4 KB, 1119 views)
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Last edited by rabbit73; 23-Sep-2015 at 3:28 PM.
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Old 26-Sep-2015, 6:32 PM   #8
fusionteck
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Rabbit
Thanks I am impressed all of you guys that have given me input on my question are at a way higher level than I
I always had a problem with king because I had a big tree in the way (which I have since cut down and it does help I get a signal at various timers of the day
But Kiro I was always able to get consistently until about the time that I put the Solar panel's in now that I think of it
My house doesn't run on solar I just sell it back to PSE to reduce my electric charges but each panel has its own inverter
I'm using 100ft of RG11 cable which I am switching out to 75ft of quad shield RG6
I will digest all of this info and make some changes
When I'm done I will give you guys some feedback
Thank you very much

Last edited by fusionteck; 26-Sep-2015 at 6:47 PM. Reason: more info
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Old 26-Sep-2015, 6:55 PM   #9
fusionteck
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When I first hook this thing up I was very impressed got 52 channels and no over load That I could tell anyways
As years went on I began to lose kIRO and channel 28 which is a PBS station in Tacoma
This was with out a Rotator guys
So I'm trying to understand the disintegrations of some of my signals
the VHF channels and the to channels that are 3 miles away come in great
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Old 28-Sep-2015, 2:48 PM   #10
rickbb
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....."But Kiro I was always able to get consistently until about the time that I put the Solar panel's in now that I think of it."....


...."As years went on I began to lose kIRO and channel 28 which is a PBS station in Tacoma"...


Sounds like you've answered your own question. A weak signal, some new source of interference and some degradation in the cabling/connectors.
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Old 28-Sep-2015, 8:12 PM   #11
Tim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusionteck View Post
But Kiro I was always able to get consistently until about the time that I put the Solar panel's in now that I think of it
My house doesn't run on solar I just sell it back to PSE to reduce my electric charges but each panel has its own inverter
I am a director of a municipal electric utility and we have had a couple of instances of inverters on residential solar systems connected to our system causing interference with UHF radio communications. One was so bad we had to disconnect the offender from the power drop until it was corrected. It seems there are all levels of equipment quality in the solar power industry. Some being used for consumer residential is particularly bad and I think it has the potential to cause interference to OTA TV reception.
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Old 28-Sep-2015, 9:51 PM   #12
Hamilton Ham
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Solar inverter interference.
I was about to respond to fusionteck when Tim answered. I want to back up Timís findings. We have experienced severe radio interference on VHF frequencies in the 150 to 174 Mhz band from solar inverters and charge controllers. I donít have any info on UHF interference. The vhf interference was so bad in one case that it prevented an OTA user from receiving a signal on ch 7, (174-180mhz), even though he can see the tower and its flashing warning lights from his location! It was his own solar installation so it was easy to find the culprit. Doesnít the FCC have some regulations on interference generated? Is it part 15? Iím in Canada so I am not familiar with the FCC requirements.
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