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Old 30-Jan-2015, 2:26 PM   #1
kojo
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Help getting a little more reach from out in the woods

Hello Everyone,

Long time reader, first time writer. I have been learning a lot from the forum. I was hoping to get some help from everyone. I m looking to try to expand my reach and add a few channels to the current line up that I am getting. I d like to add NBC and CW to my list, NBC (WOOD 7 or 46) and CW (WWMT 8, there is a substation on the CBS channel for CW). Any suggestions on how to get these stations?

I am currently only receiving the first 6 stations on the my TVFR. (Real channels 42,13, 17, 24, 11, & 9).

Here is my TVFR: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...2c15b3fe983e43

I am currently using a Clearstream 2 long range with both VHF and UHF its mounted about 15-20 feet off the ground from a pole on top of my house pointing south east.

I d like to get NBC in time for the superbowl, as I was waiting (8 days) to get approved to post, I ordered the C5 and the Juice Preamp to see if that might help me out (I wasnt sure how much longer to approval process would take). I have about 100 feet of cable from the Antenna to the TV. Oh and I m hooking up 2 TVs.

Any Suggestions?

thank you guys!
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Old 30-Jan-2015, 3:48 PM   #2
GroundUrMast
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Per http://www.rabbitears.info/market.ph...n=wood#station WOOD operates more than one transmitter. Your best shot at real CH-7 would be the Antennacraft Y10713. Alternately, the 91XG or DB8E from Antennas Direct would be my choice to chase after real CH-46.

The AD Juice preamp spec's indicate it's a good choice in your application. The CS5 is an excellent antenna in the correct applications, but it's not a 'deep fringe' design which I believe you'll need based on the numbers shown in your TVFR.

Perhaps the most important factor effecting reception will be your ability to avoid the obstruction of trees, structures, etc. That can be difficult if you're surrounded by trees.
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Old 30-Jan-2015, 11:26 PM   #3
Jason l
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Yes finding a good spot on your property Can be tricky. I move my antenna around the on the general area and watch for hot spots where signal comes in stronger. In my yard i need to aim the antenna at the longest deepest clearing. Even tho it's not a direct angle at towers it works For all the channels I watch. If you can't find vhf 7 and 8 try the antenata groundurmast recommend. Or the McLap diy 8 bay. My diy 10" wiskers get rc 7 @80%and rc8 @ 60% with no dropouts. And cut some trees if needed if you have oak trees like me they make great fire wood.
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Old 30-Jan-2015, 11:28 PM   #4
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I also get rc 46
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Old 31-Jan-2015, 5:44 PM   #5
kojo
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OK, so... the C5 and Juice can yesterday. I got home from work and it was close to dark so I started working on it this morning.

I extended my mast another 10'. got the juice hooked up and the C5 with my old C2. Im using the c2 just for UHF and the C5 for VHF. I put the C5 at the very top and the C2 about a foor below it. they are 20-25' in the air now.

I now am getting all the channels I had before, plus WOOD (real 7), my tv is telling me that it is coming in at 50% strength.

after getting everything connected and just about ready to turn on the TV to see what the improvement was, FEDEX came and delivered my Antennas Dirrect BD8 that I ordered yesterday per GroundUrMast recommendation ( had it over nighted incase the c5 didnt work). So what I m wondering is- if I take everything down and put together the DB8 and put it up in place of the C5 and C2 should I expect to see an improvement and get WWMT (real 8)?
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Old 31-Jan-2015, 7:18 PM   #6
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I had poor luck getting vhf rc channel 8 with my eight Bay that had 9 1/2 inch whiskers and my 9" whiskers The 10 inch whiskers however get real channel 8 with no hiccups that is with a reflector I think it's 40 inch wide reflector I made. My reflector is 4 inches behind whiskers. yes I've had them side to side instead of vertical stacked but I had less channels in one spot I had to aim the antenna to get different channels. So I'm unfamiliar with the DB8 you have if the whiskers are large over 9 inches and reflector is around 4 inches away from the whiskers there's a chance you may get real channel 8. If the whiskers are 10 inches and the reflector within 3 to 4 inches away I would say yes for sure if you are now picking up real channel 7 with what you got. Only one way to really find out hook it up and see I usually stand on my second story deck to test my antennas before I mount them. And in my yard it works well I get all my channels on my deck and some of them get stronger when I mount the antenna higher. Good luck!
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Old 31-Jan-2015, 11:21 PM   #7
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Be sure that you are thinking 'real channel' not 'virtual channel' when working on an antenna system. Antennas have no awareness of virtual channels.The DB8E is a UHF only design (real CH-14 and higher). If you're trying to receive WOOD on real CH-7, don't expect the DB8E to be capable of that. The same is true of real CH-8, WWMY and the rest of the signals in the range of real CH-2 through 13 (the low and high VHF bands).

However, the DB8E would give you a shot at real CH-46 which is a second transmitter that carries WOOD. You'll want to keep the CS5 in the system so that you don't loose the other H-VHF signals.

The DB8E may add one or more UHF signals that you haven't seen so far... If not I would expect it to give you more reliable reception of the signals you're seeing with the CS2.

If the DB8E + CS5 can't deliver a reliable signal from WOOD, the next option is to step up to the DB8E + Y10713 combination I mentioned earlier.
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Last edited by GroundUrMast; 31-Jan-2015 at 11:26 PM.
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Old 1-Feb-2015, 12:46 AM   #8
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thanks for the info GroundUrMast. I did read that in my research and I m starting to understand it. I m new to this world of radio waves and things but it has been fun learn about them. I thought I read however that the DB8 could pick up Real 7 and 8, some of the higher VHF signals? thats one thing that is confusing to be about Jason l's set up. He is picking up both VHF and UHF signals thru a DIY DB8, it sounds like. He is just south of me 5+ miles or so.

At any rate, this turned into a long day. the good news- I was able to get NBC so that I can watch the Superbowl tomorrow. The bad news- I was not able to add CW yet.

I tried the DB8 in place of the C5 with the C2 (which GroundUrMast has reminded me was a bad idea.) I lost WOOD with that set up. I tryed the DB8 on its own for both VHF and UHF and it really didnt seem to help.

I put the C5 back up with the C2 for UHF pointed north east. The C5 for VHF pointed South East. I m getting WOOD (real 7) with the C5 at a constant 50% according to my TV. I didnt lose Real 9 to the north of my, which is good. So I still have CBS.

After tomorrow, my focus will be on trying to get Real 8 WMMT, which is CBS and CW. Its about 3.5 miles further away then WOOD. WOOD is 1.5NM and WMMT is -0.7NM according to my TVFR.

So the Y10713 has a further reach then the C5 for VHF? Is that the AntennaCraft 10-Element Channels 7-13 Yagi Antenna? I cant find too many specs on it as far as gain. I might have to order it on Monday and give it a try, whats one more antenna to have around the house?
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Old 1-Feb-2015, 1:20 AM   #9
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One thing I dont understand is, it would seem that real 9 comes in better when I have the C2 (UHF) pointed north east towards real 9. when I had it pointed south today, real 9 was barely coming in but I was getting real 29 but it was spotty. I ve never gotten real 29 before. but I turned the C2 to the north east and I am getting real 9 again. why would the C2s direction, which is set up for UHF be effecting a VHF channel?
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Old 1-Feb-2015, 1:39 AM   #10
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One can never have too many antennas.

The Antennas Direct DB8E uses a custom strip-line/balun instead of a classic transformer/balun. The AD balun is a bit more efficient than the older technology but only in the UHF band. Given that the antenna was only intended to cover the post 2009 UHF band, I think they did the right thing... squeezing all the UHF only performance they could from the new design.

DIY antennas often use the older style transformer/balun (though I'm sure there are builders that come up with alternate methods to couple the antenna to the down-lead). The classic transformer/balun is broad-band in nature, covering all the VHF and UHF bands as well ad the FM band. It's still a good option when that bandwidth is needed.

Then there's the older Antennas Direct DB8 (not to be confused with the newer DB8E) an older design that needed to cover a wider UHF band. A very good UHF antenna, but not quite as much gain as the newer product. Not a failure of design, but physics dictate that you'll sacrifice a bit of gain if you design for broader bandwidth.

Bottom line, there are some similarities and some significant differences between the real Antennas Direct product and similar looking 'knock-offs' of the design.


The CS5 could be described as a medium range High-VHF antenna that indecently proved to have usable UHF capability at relatively short ranges. https://www.antennasdirect.com/cmss_...with%20uhf.pdf The peak gain of 7.63 dBi converts to 5.48 dBd


The Antennacraft Y10713 has higher gain and could be described as a fringe to deep fringe High-VHF antenna. I know of no consumer grade option that offers equal or greater gain at present... The discontinued Winegard YA1713 was a head to head competitor. http://www.antennacraft.com/pdfs/Y10-7-13.pdf Antennacraft's specs are not clear as to whether they are based on peak gain, so I'll err on the side of caution and presume that to be the case. Their spec of 9.4 dBd is just shy of 4 dB greater than the CS5... not earth shattering, but significant.

Reliable reception often depends more on the mounting height and location than any other single factor.
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Last edited by GroundUrMast; 1-Feb-2015 at 3:59 PM. Reason: sp. added links to antenna specs
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Old 1-Feb-2015, 1:42 AM   #11
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Are you using the UHF/VHF combiner that was supplied with the CS5? If not, how are you combining the UHF and VHF antennas to a common down-lead?

Have you tried changing the spacing between the antennas on the mast?
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Old 1-Feb-2015, 1:48 AM   #12
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Ya, I m using the combiner that came with the C5.
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Old 1-Feb-2015, 1:48 AM   #13
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how far do you think I should have the two antennas spaced apart?
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Old 1-Feb-2015, 1:56 AM   #14
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There should be no less than 3' between a UHF and H-VHF antenna.

Check for slight edits to my previous posts.
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Old 1-Feb-2015, 3:07 PM   #15
Jason l
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Okay I have to add my two cents no technical stuff just simple real channel 9 is very powerful you basically can pick it up with a rabbit ear outside in a clear area. I pick up Real channel 29 and 15 they're the same broadcast wxsp cd And woms 29 same programming from what I can tell I just turn off channel 29 and use 15. Most likely there's no need for a bunch of antennas I know it's hard to make the bowtie if you don't have time but I assure you you'll be happy with the 10 inch whiskers the only thing you might not get is channel 9 if you're pointed south east with one antenna I posted pictures of the antenna I'm using now and with the added long wire on my reflector I also pick up channel 9 now as well as everything else Southeast. that is just with the one ugly do it yourself eight Bay bowtie. antenna.... Lol
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Old 1-Feb-2015, 3:37 PM   #16
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Ya, I m not getting either 15 or 29. I'm going try the AD DB8 in place of the c2 next, hopefully that will get me 29 and or 15. And I might order the YA1713 to see if thst will help me pull in WWMT. I might have to build a db8 like yours if thst doesn't work. Wish the snow and cold would leave I have 2-3 inches of ice on my metal roof.
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Old 1-Feb-2015, 4:49 PM   #17
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Cool I'm interested to know if you can pick up real channel 8 with the different antenna than what I'm using. the guy down the road at RadioShack in Whitehall told me his big antennas don't really get Real channel 8 not sure wich ones he was referring. But he was very surprised I was picking it up with a homemade antenna. Do you get channel 45 with your DB8 64.1 64.2 64.3 ?
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Old 1-Feb-2015, 5:04 PM   #18
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No, I don't get any of those either.
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Old 2-Feb-2015, 4:57 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GroundUrMast View Post
One can never have too many antennas.

The Antennas Direct DB8E uses a custom strip-line/balun instead of a classic transformer/balun. The AD balun is a bit more efficient than the older technology but only in the UHF band. Given that the antenna was only intended to cover the post 2009 UHF band, I think they did the right thing... squeezing all the UHF only performance they could from the new design.

DIY antennas often use the older style transformer/balun (though I'm sure there are builders that come up with alternate methods to couple the antenna to the down-lead). The classic transformer/balun is broad-band in nature, covering all the VHF and UHF bands as well ad the FM band. It's still a good option when that bandwidth is needed.

Then there's the older Antennas Direct DB8 (not to be confused with the newer DB8E) an older design that needed to cover a wider UHF band. A very good UHF antenna, but not quite as much gain as the newer product. Not a failure of design, but physics dictate that you'll sacrifice a bit of gain if you design for broader bandwidth.

Bottom line, there are some similarities and some significant differences between the real Antennas Direct product and similar looking 'knock-offs' of the design.


The CS5 could be described as a medium range High-VHF antenna that indecently proved to have usable UHF capability at relatively short ranges. https://www.antennasdirect.com/cmss_...with%20uhf.pdf The peak gain of 7.63 dBi converts to 5.48 dBd


The Antennacraft Y10713 has higher gain and could be described as a fringe to deep fringe High-VHF antenna. I know of no consumer grade option that offers equal or greater gain at present... The discontinued Winegard YA1713 was a head to head competitor. http://www.antennacraft.com/pdfs/Y10-7-13.pdf Antennacraft's specs are not clear as to whether they are based on peak gain, so I'll err on the side of caution and presume that to be the case. Their spec of 9.4 dBd is just shy of 4 dB greater than the CS5... not earth shattering, but significant.

Reliable reception often depends more on the mounting height and location than any other single factor.
thanks for the info. that was very helpful. So in theory, could I simply swap out the custom strip-line/balun for a classic transformer/balun and I would then be receiving UHF and VHF? Just wondering at this point.

I m going to try the DB8 in place of the C2 for my UHF and see what that does as I am not getting 29 or 15 right now and I think those should be easy to get.
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Old 2-Feb-2015, 6:17 PM   #20
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Quote:
...in theory, could I simply swap out the custom strip-line/balun for a classic transformer/balun and I would then be receiving UHF and VHF? Just wondering at this point.
In Theory... Possibly. But the Antennas Direct DB8E has two strip line baluns... one on each section, and they are integrated into the physical design in a way that makes no provision for readily connecting an alternate balun. Antennas designed to use the older transformer type balun have binding posts that are intended to provide a connection interface to a transformer balun, the DB8E has no terminal post or binging posts so you'd find yourself altering the electrical length of the phasing lines which could dramatically detune the entire antenna. The elements and reflector dimensions have been optimized for the post 2009 UHF band.

I'd be reluctant to perform a potentially damaging & irreversible mod on a new antenna that cost the best part of two Ben Franklins... just my opinion.
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