Indoor antenna advice for OTA in Portland, ME? :-)

[wisny]

Hi all,

I posted this originally at the end of another thread. I'm c/p'ing here to a new thread, per advice by John Candle . So, my original question, and an update with an antenna that I tried, follows:


Question:

Does anyone have any experience with OTA reception in Portland, and do you have any recommendations for an indoor antenna that might work? We currently have TWC on two TVs, one with TiVo (wow, love tivo!! ), but added a 19" HDTV in another room to use for exercise vhs's and dvd's. We didn't want to add more coaxial cable to bring cable to the little tv, but thought it might be nice to get OTA channels.

I went to antennaweb.org, and most of my results were yellow and red, with one blue station:


Yellow UHF: CBS-DT, NBC-DT, TBN-D (plus Daystar WLLB-LP, which isn't digital)
Yellow VHF: ABC-DT

Red UHF: CW-DT, FOX-DT, MyTV-DT (plus TBN W32CA, which isn't digital)
Red VHF: PBS-DT

Blue UHF: PBS-DT


The stations I don't care about are: The yellow TBN & Daystar stations, the red TBN station, and the blue PBS station.

The stations I would like to receive are: The yellow ABC, NBC, and CBS stations, as well as the red CW, Fox, and PBS stations, if possible. The red MyTV station is not a priority, but I'll take it if it shows up .


The antennaweb page doesn't look like it has a link I can c&p to share, but here is the one from tvfool.com: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...a362cd71863cfb

The tv will be located on the second floor of a two-story house, which also has an attic. The area is mostly 1- and 2-story homes, but there are a few 4-story buildings not far away. There is a radio tower within a mile, as well. And there are many mature maple trees which are taller than the homes.

Any advice would be much appreciated . Should I be looking for an amplified rabbit ears? A non-amplified rabbit ears? A flat antenna? It's so confusing! I guess I need one that is uhf and vhf? Does that mean definitely rabbit ears with a circle antenna in the middle? Thankyou in advance to all, for any helpful tips you might have!



Here is my update, after trying a Radio Shack antenna:


Heya again

So, I tried this antenna:



RadioShack® Indoor HDTV Antenna
Model: 15-246 | Catalog #: 15-246 $24.99

Tune in to a better picture.

This is the perfect antenna for all your reception needs. From basic UHF, VHF and FM radio signals to HDTV and FM HD Radio signals*, you'll be able to see and hear more clearly. The 12-potion fine-tuning control gives you the ability to hone in for optimal reception. Best of all, you can get all this without having to place anything obtrusive on top of your television set. This antenna features a stylish design with discrete dipoles and an integrated UHF loop, so it blends in with high-tech A/V components. With one device, you can improve reception and the appearance of your television area.

* Receives HDTV, FM HD radio, VHF, UHF and FM radio signals*
* 12-position fine-tuning provides optimal reception
* Discrete black dipoles and integrated UHF loop
* Gold-plated connectors help reduce signal loss and interference
* Includes 6-foot, 75-ohm coaxial cable

http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...uctId=3643548#


It was very good at the regular yellow stations (NBC, ABC, CBS). The low power yellow station (TBN) was high snow (I don't want that station, anyway, so that didn't matter), but it didn't pick up the red stations (FOX, CW, CBS), or the blue station (the 2nd PBS). I really would like to get the red (PBS, Fox, and CW) stations, so if anyone has any good recommendations, I'm all ears

tia again !

[Dave Loudin]

No worries about a link to antennaweb - it's useless when compared to a proper TVFool report. You should have no trouble, according to your report, with anything but the My-TV affiliate. The ABC, NBC, CBS, PBS, Fox, and CW affiliates are shown as strong enough for an indoor antenna to pick up. Especially since you ran the report for an antenna height of 10 feet. If you're on the second floor, that number should be higher, which would probably lead to stronger signal predictions from TVFool.

First off, you realize you just have a fancy UHF loop/VHF rabbit ears antenna, right? The tuning knob may have some affect, but likely not much. Don't worry, though, as I think you have the right antenna based on the report you posted. Let's look at what that report says.

The top graphic is meant to show which direction the signals are coming from and how strong they are. Longer bars mean stronger signals. Note that your stations come from very different directions. Have you tried aiming your antenna based on this information? The UHF loop will respond to a wide range of angles, but the maixmum is always in the direction going through the loop. In other words, you should be able to look through the loop towards the stations.

If you're picking up NBC, CBS, and ABC, you must have the loop aimed such that you can look through it to the northwest/southeast plus have the rabbit ears extended so that they are in the same line as the loop. Note that the Fox station is to the northeast and the PBS VHF is to the southeast - try rotating the loop in that direction and see if it works.

Just to be sure, please rerun your TVFool report, but this time use the start MAPS option. When the page with the Google map shows up, be sure that the pointer is right over your location. Drag it to the right spot if necessary. Update the antenna height to what you are really using, then clidk the "make radar plot" button. Share that link with us.

[wisny]

Originally Posted by Dave Loudin

No worries about a link to antennaweb - it's useless when compared to a proper TVFool report. You should have no trouble, according to your report, with anything but the My-TV affiliate. The ABC, NBC, CBS, PBS, Fox, and CW affiliates are shown as strong enough for an indoor antenna to pick up. Especially since you ran the report for an antenna height of 10 feet. If you're on the second floor, that number should be higher, which would probably lead to stronger signal predictions from TVFool.

First off, you realize you just have a fancy UHF loop/VHF rabbit ears antenna, right? The tuning knob may have some affect, but likely not much. Don't worry, though, as I think you have the right antenna based on the report you posted. Let's look at what that report says.

The top graphic is meant to show which direction the signals are coming from and how strong they are. Longer bars mean stronger signals. Note that your stations come from very different directions. Have you tried aiming your antenna based on this information? The UHF loop will respond to a wide range of angles, but the maixmum is always in the direction going through the loop. In other words, you should be able to look through the loop towards the stations.

If you're picking up NBC, CBS, and ABC, you must have the loop aimed such that you can look through it to the northwest/southeast plus have the rabbit ears extended so that they are in the same line as the loop. Note that the Fox station is to the northeast and the PBS VHF is to the southeast - try rotating the loop in that direction and see if it works.

Just to be sure, please rerun your TVFool report, but this time use the start MAPS option. When the page with the Google map shows up, be sure that the pointer is right over your location. Drag it to the right spot if necessary. Update the antenna height to what you are really using, then clidk the "make radar plot" button. Share that link with us.

Hi Dave

Thanks so much for your reply. Yea, I didn't think that tuning knob did anything Didn't seem to do anything. This was the most basic antenna they had.

I didn't realize I needed to aim the loop at the station! I thought it was the rabbit ears. I did try aiming the rabbit ears towards the Fox station. Maybe I aimed it north, instead of northeast .... but, in any case, I was aiming the wrong part of the antenna!

I actually returned that one and picked up the next one, which is basically the same thing, but has an amplifier. I will attach it, and try aiming the loops (instead of the ears!), and also will re-run the report with the correct heights. Sorry about that, I didn't notice that I put in the wrong height.

I am on hold with TiVo chat right now trying to figure out the DVR expander and why it's hanging up, instead of finishing install. But, after I get done there, I will try your suggestions. I'll post back my results.

TY again !!

[John Candle]

Wisny has not read any of the other posts and is running wild.

[Dave Loudin]

John, please just be helpful.

[wisny]

Originally Posted by John Candle

Wisny has not read any of the other posts and is running wild.

I apologize. I actually read alot of the other posts, which is why I posted at the end of BeachBoy's thread earlier. I searched for any posts that had to do with Portland, ME.

[wisny]

Hello again,

Back again with my update. So, I had already returned the first Radio Shack antenna mentioned above, and picked up the loop/rabbit ears amplified antenna that the guy there said I should try. He didn't have the amplified one in stock the first time, but said they'd have it in the next day, and if the un-amplified one didn't work, that I should exchange it for the amplified one, and try that. This is the amplified antenna. It's basically the same, loop and ears. It has no 'tuning knob', but has a power cord (for the amplifier):

RadioShack® Amplified HDTV Antenna
Model: 15-254 | Catalog #: 15-254 $34.99
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=3611256



Turn on and tune in.

Upgrade your old rabbit ears with this HDTV compatible amplified antenna. Its designed to capture both UHF and VHF signals (channels 2 to 69) while extending the reception range for all local HDTV broadcasts. It provides signal amplification up to 22 db and connects to your TV with one simple cable.

* 22 dB amplification provids a clear signal, even in remote locations
* Gold-plated "F" connector output for better signal and picture
* 180° rotation to allow fine tuning



The results were the same. Switching around the loop and ears didn't pick up Fox, CW, or PBS (or MyTV). I did receive, very well, ABC, NBC, and CBS. And Daystar came in with snow. Here is the new TV Fool report, using the 'Maps' click, and 20 ft for the antenna height: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...a3629fff9e01a3

Do you think a different kind of indoor antenna is what I need? Or, possibly, could the TV tuner have anything to do with the results? This is not a high-end tv. It's a Dynex (Best Buy's in-house brand) 19" LCD flat panel tv/dvd combo: http://www.cowboom.com/store/product...ntentID=652221

Again, I appreciate the help very much

- wis

[Billiam]

I've been through this problem more than once. Indoor antennas pale in comparison to outdoor antennas even when used indoors. Find a good indoor antenna like the CM 4221 which you can mount inside in a window by simply perching it on a unused chair. It will give you every UHF signal in green and probably those in yellow. It might give you 8 and 10 too though I am not completely certain about that.

I was able to get VHF hi with my 4221 when I tested it in the Hartford area last fall. And in my current location, I've used a 4221 in my living room and received every KC signal in yellow on my TV Fool report though all are UHF signals. I am 35 to 40 miles from every transmitter!

[wisny]

Originally Posted by Billiam

I've been through this problem more than once. Indoor antennas pale in comparison to outdoor antennas even when used indoors. Find a good indoor antenna like the CM 4221 which you can mount inside in a window by simply perching it on a unused chair. It will give you every UHF signal in green and probably those in yellow. It might give you 8 and 10 too though I am not completely certain about that.

I was able to get VHF hi with my 4221 when I tested it in the Hartford area last fall. And in my current location, I've used a 4221 in my living room and received every KC signal in yellow on my TV Fool report though all are UHF signals. I am 35 to 40 miles from every transmitter!

Hey, Billiam . Thankyou very much! You've given me another direction to look in. I am checking out the 4221 on Amazon, and I may just give that a shot. While I was looking there, I ran across some 'ClearStream' compact antennas? Do you know anything about those at all? It also sounds like UHF outdoor, like you mentioned the ChannelMaster is. It looks like it might be a bit more compact though, although, to be honest, I can't really tell b/c they don't give exact dimensions. Do you know anything at all about this type of antenna, and do you think it might pick up the vhf ones as well, as you mentioned the ChannelMaster might?





http://www.amazon.com/Antennas-Direc...7&sr=1-2-fkmr1

[Billiam]

I demo'd the C4 but returned. Good antenna but didn't help me out much on Ch. 17 which is my biggest challenge. The 91XG is a very good antenna but too bulky for your situation and probably more antenna than you need since most of your signals are in green.

The C5 by Antennas Direct is a VHF antenna you might consider. Not sure if it picks up UHF though. I am not that familiar with this antenna.

[wisny]

Originally Posted by Billiam

I demo'd the C4 but returned. Good antenna but didn't help me out much on Ch. 17 which is my biggest challenge. The 91XG is a very good antenna but too bulky for your situation and probably more antenna than you need since most of your signals are in green.

The C5 by Antennas Direct is a VHF antenna you might consider. Not sure if it picks up UHF though. I am not that familiar with this antenna.

I was just looking at the C5. I'm not sure on the UHF on that one either. I don't think it's supposed to, but some reviewers said they did get UHF.

I wonder, can you use a combiner to put a rabbit ears with one of these clear streams, then have UHF and VHF, do you think? I was wondering about putting one of the Clearstream UHF antennas with a basic rabbit ears. Maybe the C1, above, or the Convertible, pictured next:



plus

or

UHF/VHF Combiners:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_no...mbiner&x=0&y=0


Antennas Direct Clearstream Antennas page, and comparison page (not sure if the comparison page will link properly).

[Billiam]

You can use an A/B switch to combine two antennas like this. VHF on one channel and UHF on the other.

I don't like any indoor antennas and won't recommend any. Best to use outdoor antennas inside for the best reception.

[wisny]

Originally Posted by Billiam

You can use an A/B switch to combine two antennas like this. VHF on one channel and UHF on the other.

I don't like any indoor antennas and won't recommend any. Best to use outdoor antennas inside for the best reception.

Okay, thanks. I really appreciate the advice .

[ADTech]

was wondering about putting one of the Clearstream UHF antennas with a basic rabbit ears.

The C1 (and the rest of the ClearStream UHF antennas) has limited VHF reception capability via feedline radiation. It will generally work okay in strong signal areas but usually requires a VHF-specific dipole for predictable reception of VHF channels. Should a VHF dipole (rabbit ears) be needed, combine it to the UHF antenna using a UHF-VHF diplexer. Suitable devices include our EU385CF UHF/VHF Combiner, the Radio Shack 15-2586, or the UVSJ from either Holland Electronics or Pico-Macom/Tru-Spec. Lay the dipole elements so they are horizontal and adjust the tip-to-tip length of the dipoles to between 26 and 31 inches. Rotate the dipole so that the elements are broadside to the direction that the signals come from.

The C5 is a bit large for practical indoor use at 20"x24"x12' unless you have adequate room to spare. As far as UHF performance is concerned, see the Tech Data Sheet (under Documents) on the C5's individual product page. I generally characterize it as most closely performing like as an "omni" on UHF and often suggest it for situations that include short to medium range UHF from multiple directions.

I have done extensive field testing of the C5 in the St Louis area, an all UHF market. In fact, the only antenna mounted on the roof of our new building is a C5 pointed at Jefferson City and it provides complete reception of all the St Louis stations.

ADTech

[mtownsend]

To get a little better performance than a basic loop and rabbit ears combo in a set-top size form factor, you ought to try the Terk HDTVi. You don't need an amplifier, so you don't need to spend the extra money for the HDTVa amplified version of the same antenna.

The part of the antenna with "wings" handles UHF, and the rabbit ears handle VHF. For the best VHF reception, you need to extend the rabbit ears elements out about half way and then position them so that they are laid out horizontally. Aim the "nose" of the antenna toward the stations you want to receive. This should be good enough to get you most of the stations in the "green" zone at the top of your TV Fool report.

If you need to get stations further down on your list, then you'll need to consider larger antennas and/or a better antenna location (i.e., in the attic, or on the roof). Some of the antennas mentioned so far in this thread are primarily "outdoor" antennas that you could place inside a room if you have enough room and a way to mount them. The "outdoor" antennas are usually designed to attach to a mast that you provide separately, so they do not come with any kind of stand of their own. You will need to create something yourself if you want these to stand somewhere in your room.

Also note that your stations are coming from multiple directions, so you may need to re-position the antenna to pick up each of the stations from different directions.

If you do choose to combine separate UHF and VHF antennas, the proper way to do this is with a "diplexer" (like this one). These are not just standard 2-way splitters. Any of the diplexers mentioned by ADTech can merge UHF and VHF bands with minimal loss of performance from either side.



As a general note, antenna directionality and antenna gain are related to each other. A high gain antenna is going to be very directional and vice versa. An "omni" antenna, by its very nature, cannot be a very high gain antenna. Conversely, a high gain antenna will be directional, and it can do a better job of picking up weaker stations, but it must also be pointed toward the channel you want to receive.

Your TV Fool report shows several strong local stations coming from many directions. The ones in "green" are probably strong enough to be picked up by an indoor set-top size antenna. For anything further down on the list, it's highly recommended that you consider an antenna in the attic or on the roof because the building itself is responsible for scattering/absorbing a lot of signal. On the weaker signals, it's very challenging to get enough clean signal for a reliable channel lock when the antenna is inside, surrounded by people, furniture, walls, neighboring rooms, neighboring buildings, and anything else that can get in the way.

[wisny]

TY, AdTech, and mtownsend . You've both given me plenty to think about. I can't believe how much I've learnt about antennas in the last week! And I still only 'very very basically' understand them. No wonder we always had spotty reception pre-cable. I didn't understand a thing about antennas!

[wisny]

Originally Posted by mtownsend

To get a little better performance than a basic loop and rabbit ears combo in a set-top size form factor, you ought to try the Terk HDTVi. You don't need an amplifier, so you don't need to spend the extra money for the HDTVa amplified version of the same antenna.

mtownsend, Do you think that Terk would pick up my vhf PBS station? I've tried three versions of the rabbit ears/loop (the two radio shacks mentioned in this thread, plus a basic RCA). They all pick up the NBC, CBS uhf stations, and the ABC vhf station (as well as the Daystar analog station).

I'm kind of interested in the Clearstreams, b/c they'd look cool on my wall , but they'd only help with the Fox and CW uhf stations. Although, the bigger one, the C4 might let me pick up the uhf stations MyN 35 and PBS 26, in addition to Fox and CW. The C5 really is too big for indoor, as AdTech pointed out.

I'm also kind of interested in the CM that Billiam mentioned, b/c it might pick up the Fox, CW, and PBS stations. But, it also really is kind of on the big side.

If the Terk you mentioned would pick up my PBS vhf ch 10.1 station, I might grab that one. Is the PBS station hard to pick up b/c it's vhf? Or is it because it's below 50 in the NM(dB) column?

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...a3629fff9e01a3

[mtownsend]

The HDTVi only has rabbit ears for grabbing VHF stations, so I don't expect it to do any better than any of the other rabbit ears you've tried.

Yes, WCBB is hard to pick up because it is on a VHF channel and you do not have a VHF antenna large enough to pick it up cleanly. VHF channels have long wavelengths, which means you need long antenna elements (like extended rabbit ears, or the other large VHF antennas you've seen) to pick them up. The next size up from rabbit ears gets pretty big (like the Antennas Direct CS5, or Winegard YA-6713), which is why you generally don't see anything more powerful than rabbit ears for indoor use on VHF.

BTW, to make the most out of your rabbit ears, make sure that you've extended the elements about half way out and arranged them to be straight out horizontally. The two sides should be equal length and have an overall tip-to-tip length between 40 to 50 inches. The line formed by the antenna should be perpendicular to the direction of the transmitter. That is, since channel 10 is coming in from the north-east, you'll want your rabbit ears elements pointing north-west/south-east. This will maximize your chances of picking up WCBB with any set of rabbit ears.

If this does not give you enough sensitivity for VHF channels, then you've got to move the antenna to the attic or roof (to have less building loss), use an antenna with more VHF gain (which means bigger), or do both.

[wisny]

Originally Posted by mtownsend

The HDTVi only has rabbit ears for grabbing VHF stations, so I don't expect it to do any better than any of the other rabbit ears you've tried.

Yes, WCBB is hard to pick up because it is on a VHF channel and you do not have a VHF antenna large enough to pick it up cleanly. VHF channels have long wavelengths, which means you need long antenna elements (like extended rabbit ears, or the other large VHF antennas you've seen) to pick them up. The next size up from rabbit ears gets pretty big (like the Antennas Direct CS5, or Winegard YA-6713), which is why you generally don't see anything more powerful than rabbit ears for indoor use on VHF.

BTW, to make the most out of your rabbit ears, make sure that you've extended the elements about half way out and arranged them to be straight out horizontally. The two sides should be equal length and have an overall tip-to-tip length between 40 to 50 inches. The line formed by the antenna should be perpendicular to the direction of the transmitter. That is, since channel 10 is coming in from the north-east, you'll want your rabbit ears elements pointing north-west/south-east. This will maximize your chances of picking up WCBB with any set of rabbit ears.

If this does not give you enough sensitivity for VHF channels, then you've got to move the antenna to the attic or roof (to have less building loss), use an antenna with more VHF gain (which means bigger), or do both.

Thankyou again, mtownsend. Very much appreciate the info. I have the ears extended 3/4 on one, and fully on the other, if I'm remembering correctly. I will retract them some, to about halfway, and try again. I printed out my fool map and stood in front of the tv, pointing the ears broadside to the direction of the stations . Very handy, that little circle map! It helped me pick up WGME (ABC channel 8 vhf), which didn't come in right away, but no joy with WCBB (PBS channel 10 vhf). Maybe the retraction will help! I'll try later tonight.

Edit: Wait, I just noticed your comment about perpendicular! I scanned too fast the first time. I must have mixed up the looking through the loop advice, with the vhf advice. I'll re-aim for perpendicular, with half-retraction. tyvm!

And thanks for explaining why there's so little variation in VHF antennas. I was wondering why there were many configurations for the UHF, but pretty much just the ears for the VHF.