Toledo OH reception & Channel Master 7777/7778 preamp question

Blackbeen · 6-Jun-2012, 9:28 AM

I'm considering purchasing one of these preamps for use with my Antennas Direct DB4e:http://www.antennasdirect.com/store/DB4e.html
J-mounted outside a 3rd story window on a north side brick wall about 25-30' off the ground.
I'm in the 43606 area, my cable run is 31' to one HDTV. I do have a stations within 20 miles but experience severe break up on most of these local Toledo channels & since there are strong FM stations almost in direct line with them I'm hoping the FM filter might improve this issue. Also I'd like to improve reception with the channels 50+ miles away (Detroit), to note contrary to the TV Signal Analysis Ch 7 much of the time comes in as strong if not stronger than local ones. Would the Channel Master 7778 still be preferred? to reach Detroit channels &/or would a preamp even improve my current setup.

TV

FM

signals unlimited · 6-Jun-2012, 9:55 AM

You don't need the pre-amp to block FM. You can purchase a FM trap for around five bucks from www.solidsignals.com Also FM typically only effects VHF (2-13). Your channel 7 is working fine on your UHF antenna, so unless you are having problems with a real not vurtual VHF, FM is not your problem. If you want to try an amplifier for the stations to your East, try the 7778 amplifier, not the 7777. You may experence overload from the strong signals from nearby local channels.

Blackbeen · 6-Jun-2012, 10:28 AM

Channel 11 is VERY problematic & breaks up more than any other Toledo channel this is somewhat understandable as it is High VHF & the antenna UHF but I also have a lot of problems with 24 which is obviously UHF & has slightly more transmitter power to boot, overall this is very frustrating as I would expect local channels to be very solid though I realize these are pretty low power unfortunately.

signals unlimited · 6-Jun-2012, 10:48 AM

With 70 degrees between channel 11 and 7, I would try aiming to the exact location of each. Channel 11 at 97 degrees and 7 at 29 degrees magnetic to determine if your problem is FM interferrence, UHF antenna, or dirrection.

If the problem goes away with dirrection changes, You may want to go with another antenna and amplifier set-up.

Let me know.

Blackbeen · 6-Jun-2012, 11:48 AM

Actually I stand corrected (and feel a little foolish) the wall the antenna is mounted is not due north, as it tilts east bound

I have tried different angles but for the most part flat to the building pointing it northeast works best overall, "sometimes" swinging it more east bound will improve 24 but not always, the other channels remain the same with the exception of obviously the Detroit ones, which doesn't make sense to me as most of the Toledo ones I am reaching for are in that same general east bound direction. I've consider another antenna but it seems silly for just a couple channels + the most idea place to mount is on the back wall & though it may not look that way in the picture there are lots of obstructions that I think would hinder reception.

signals unlimited · 6-Jun-2012, 12:23 PM

With the large trees in both directions, tuning and locating the antenna is a challenge. Relocating to the other side of the house may or may not improve the reception. If it my installation I would do two things: Mount on your Hip roof, with your "J" pole and install a rotor. This will give you the ability to tune the directions of indivisual stations from a more advantagous location. I would also suggest changing into an RCA ANT 751 antenna.

If you want to use a rotor, the Eagel Aspen Roto 100 will operate thru your RG6 coax.

This will resolve your problems as best you can, taking into consideration your obsticals.

Electron · 6-Jun-2012, 7:41 PM

Will be a big help if you will post a live and active tvfool radar plot report.

Not pictures of the reports.

Blackbeen · 6-Jun-2012, 7:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Electron

Will be a big help if you will post a live and active tvfool radar plot report.

Not pictures of the reports.

The FM report would not link (I tried 3 times & it just linked to the initial input page NOT the report) so I just decided to post "both" as as pictures rather than just the FM.

GroundUrMast · 6-Jun-2012, 7:49 PM

If your goal is to see both the local and Detroit market signals, the ANT-751 is not going to provide a complete solution. The ANT-751 and Winegard HD7000R both come to mind as good solutions to the local reception problems, in either case a passive FM trap is in order. Radio Shack cat. 15-024 is a local option for most folks. I favor the HD7000R given the presence of real CH-5.

Reliable Detroit reception calls for an Antennas Direct 91XG + an Antennacraft Y10713 + FM trap + an Antennas Direct CPA-19 preamp.

If I were in this situation, I'd be considering the installation of two independent antenna systems. One for local and on for distant signals. The DX system would very likely include a rotator but certainly would need to be mounted high, clear of trees.

Regardless, None of your local signals needs to be amplified. The CM-7777 is designed for use in a weak signal environment. It will overload in your application. The CM-7778 may tolerate the strong local signals but is still not an amplifier I would choose as a solution in this case. I suggest the CPA-19 for it's low noise and ability to handle strong signal levels.

Electron · 6-Jun-2012, 8:34 PM

For Toledo , Install a Winegard HD7000R antenna , no amplifier , aimed at about 100 degree magnetic compass.
Here is how to aim antennas , http://www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html.

For Detroit , Install the DB4e with a Antennas Direct CPA-19 preamp aimed at about 29 degree magnetic compass.

The HD7000R and the DB4e are 2 Separate antenna systems.

The 2 Separate antenna systems Will Not be connected together on to one coax.

The 2 Separate antenna systems and coaxes of the 2 Separate antenna systems will go to the location of the Tv/s and will be connected to a remote control A/B antenna switch , http://www.radioshack.com #15-1968 , or , http://www.mcmelectronics.com , 32-4425 .

ADTech · 7-Jun-2012, 2:54 PM

Quote:

The FM report would not link (I tried 3 times...)

FMFool doesn't allow a link to be posted (not implemented). You have to copy the picture as you ended up doing.

Unless you actually want WLMB (some folks do), then there's no point in going with an all-channel antenna for Toledo. A small high-VHF/UHF antenna is all that is needed.

The DB4e will receive some high-VHF, but its out-of-design-band reception of 7-13 will be anywhere from 45-70° off boresite. That's why the Fox station from Detroit is coming in with the DB4e aimed to the east. An amplified DB4e aimed directly at Detroit will probably miss the Fox station on channel 7 and you'll need to plan for it separately. A simple way to do that is to re-purpose one of our C2 VHF kits and mount the parts on the DB4e. Forcasted signal strength for that station is low on your chart, but you are picking it up "accidentally" so it may work with the minimal VHF element. A much larger directional high-VHF antenna would provide much improved margin.

The DB4e will receive enough FM via the feedline to cause interference, especially on channels that broadcast on VHF 7-13. You can pick up an FM trap locally at most Radio Shack stores as noted. If you are having reception problems on UHF channels, it's probably due to multi-path. Those trees immediately to the east of your home would be my prime suspects.

Skip the high-gain amplifier in metro/suburban areas - they're an invitation for more problems.

Blackbeen · 9-Jun-2012, 8:04 AM

Thanks for all the feedback.
I live in an apartment building so with no practical access to the roof & being limited to the area I can reach outside my window this where I chose to mount:

I realize that mounting outside window is discouraged & less than ideal but in this situation those are the limitations I have to work within.
I've considered placing an antenna on the back wall pointing due East for Toledo & dedicating the DB4e to Detroit channels but after mulling it around a lot I think due to blockage (trees, houses & power lines), the mess of running a cable from my bedroom across my kitchen & extra cost it wouldn't be worth it.
I got a FM filter the day of my last post & "so far" I think it may have helped 11, the little time I've watched this week has been stable.

I have found that in this placement these are the most effective pointing positions:

It may not look like it from the areal shot but the Toledo position is about clearest path for this location, the Detroit one has a lot more blockage than seen in the picture & for this reason sometimes Detroit come in as good if not better in the Toledo position.

ADTech: WLMB is not a big deal to me & I was speaking of WXYZ-TV 41/7.1
http://www.antennapoint.com/antennas...&commit=Search
not WXYZ-TV 7/2.1 the latter has not been seen that often for obvious reasons but the former (with 1000.0 kW of power) is very regular even during the day.
I considered the kit but frankly it seemed like a lot to pay for essentially a pair of striped down rabbit ears + with the mount it would largely inhibit the swing range of the antenna & wouldn't allow for the Toledo position. As is I'm hoping the FM Trap has resolved the 11 issue, time will tell.
Right now 24 (NBC) is the major PITA, during late-night (which should generally be prime signal hour) I can hardly watch Leno w/o regular pixelation, in the last couple nights I've taken to toggling between 24 & WDIV-TV 45/4.1 which "sometimes" seems better, given probably to the fact that its the 2nd strongest transmitter in Detroit. I'm seriously considering the CPA-19 in hope I could stabilize WDIV-TV & just give up on 24 if needed. I don't know if this is unreasonable but I'm a 3rd shifter so my viewing hours are more ideal. I would also like to get ION stabilized which is a bit more of a stretch but I've been very impressed with the range of DB4e on good night I've reached as far East as Buffalo NY (the straight shoot across Lake Erie make this possible I'm sure) & as far north as Jackson, I've peaked (though rare) at about 47 channels.

Blackbeen · 12-Jun-2012, 7:09 AM

After thinking this over more in the last week I've come to consider the idea of hiring an installer to do (perhaps) a chimney mount of the DB4e with rotor. I have also considered getting another antenna to work in conjunction with it Solid Signal recommended the Winegard HD8200U but it is HUGE (at 8' I think) & think my landlord might flip out seeing that monster up there. It also seems mostly to excel in the 100MI VHF range, being that VHF is a pretty low priority since 11 (though not 100%) "seems" to have shown improvement in the last week since I installed the FM filter & now 24 (and even the ever strong 30) continue to torture me with pixelization I'm thinking/hoping that if I get DB4e hoisted up on the roof/chimney it will provide enough path clearance of the trees (& power lines for that matter) to resolve these local UHF issues & improve Detroit reception as well. Given this what kind of rotor would be recommended? It seems the Channel Master one are poorly reviewed.

signals unlimited · 12-Jun-2012, 9:51 AM

I use and recommend the Eagel Apen Roto 100. It may also have poor reviews, but IMO
most rotor problems are DOA's. Once you install it, you will like it. Just be sure to follow the installation instructions to a "T".

ADTech · 12-Jun-2012, 2:55 PM

Quote:

It may also have poor reviews, but IMO most rotor problems are DOA's.

I find that most poor online reviews are caused by customers who don't read directions or who don't understand what they're doing, but that's just my observation.

Blackbeen · 13-Jun-2012, 6:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADTech

I find that most poor online reviews are caused by customers who don't read directions or who don't understand what they're doing, but that's just my observation.

Well, like I said I won't be doing the install as I don't have a way to access the roof & I don't feel good not having the ability to get to the antenna/rotor if anything goes wrong, having to rely on a 80 buck an hour service call.
Today's reception was an utter mess, break up on just about ALL channels, anytime there's a 5+MPH wind reception goes wacky & today was a whooping 7MPH, just a pleasant breeze & a otherwise clear day. I'm hoping the roof mount will resolve this, I'm almost ready to break down & get satellite which I really can't afford due to the local cable monopoly capping internet services as of June 1st forcing me to an upper tier at $100 a month.
Eagel actually got pretty good reviews at Amazon, I keep in mind "dumb ass" posts & DOAs when reading them but I have read a number of posts in research stating that Channel Master product quality has gone down in recent years.
Will the ROTR100 work with the Antennas Direct CPA-19 preamp? I see they recommend the Channel Master 0068 Pre-Amp here: http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...29&tab=reviews This one wire system is selling as this is one of the major concerns I had with the install, I hoping the installer can access the same brick wall access point that the cable company uses so another won't need to be made.

ADTech · 13-Jun-2012, 2:20 PM

If using the CPA19 or PA18 with the ROTR100, it is necessary to use the two-cable method.

Your reception problems are 98% likely caused by the trees. Unless you can clear them, the risk is always there that they will negatively impact reception.

Blackbeen · 14-Jun-2012, 7:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADTech

If using the CPA19 or PA18 with the ROTR100, it is necessary to use the two-cable method.

Your reception problems are 98% likely caused by the trees. Unless you can clear them, the risk is always there that they will negatively impact reception.

Ok, this really complicates maters, I was hoping to use the free port on the wall mount that shares my cable internet connection to prevent having to add to the cost & landlord hostility of adding a second dedicated antenna port but as is none of the compatible preamps seem very good or available so this might have to do. I'm also concerned that having power on the same cable might negatively effect reception, I can't see it helping at best.
I met with the installer at my place yesterday afternoon & it went better than expected the guy seemed experienced which in Toledo is very hit or miss. I'm attempting to buy as much of the items needed for install to prevent paying their mark ups but I think I'm going to let them cover the chimney mount & mast as I can't really predict will be needing for this situation. He said he would not recommend over a 10' mast for this sort of mount & that surely will not provide a 360 clearance of all trees (a number of these trees are about twice as high as my building so I don't think in this location any safe mast is going to transcend them 100%) but a pretty clear line in the Toledo direction noted on the picture. Also the Google shot of the side of my building is several years old, since that time the eaves-trough have been replaced & adding a sheet of aluminum molding underneath it (which I think is wood in the picture) between this & the metal window casing I would think this can't be helping reception in this location.
I'm also reconsidering the C2 VHF kit since I will have swing range now, is the reflector any less effective then the one on the DB4e?

ADTech · 14-Jun-2012, 2:46 PM

The DB4e reflector remains as-is. The suggestion regarding the C2 VHF kit involves using that kit for parts and mounting those key parts to the DB4e. It's a bit of a DIY "hack" or an "off-label" usage that brings modest VHF performance to the DB4e.

I still don't really see a need for an amplifier unless you are specifically trying to get Detroit stations.

signals unlimited · 14-Jun-2012, 4:45 PM

If you want to use an amplifier, the Winegard 8700 will work with the Eagel Aspen single coax hook up. If you are using seperate UHF and VHF antennas use the Winegard AP 2870. Just be sure to follow the instructions to a "T".