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Old 13-Mar-2021, 4:46 PM   #1
Kona Blue
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Help picking a attic antenna for Grimsby ON

Being new to this and living in Grimsby Ontario I am going to assume a two-panel antenna would be best, given Toronto is at 15 degrees and Buffalo is at 111 degrees (if I read the map right) with a distance of 35 miles for both. The attic is huge and easy to navigate so size does not matter. Any recommendations on a reasonably priced antenna that would work in my situation would be appreciated. Thanks
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Old 13-Mar-2021, 8:11 PM   #2
Jake V
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Hi Kona Blue,

Can you please post your TV Fool Reception Report Map? http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=14508

The database is out of date but still useful in advising you. Unless you're in a high spot, the Buffalo channels will be difficult to get. But you should be able to get the Toronto and/or Hamilton channels.

Jake
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Old 13-Mar-2021, 8:48 PM   #3
Kona Blue
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I think this is what you are looking for. Thanks for the help
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Old 14-Mar-2021, 7:00 PM   #4
Tower Guy
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Take a look at this link to see an up to date list of stations;
https://www.rabbitears.info/searchma...tudy_id=230985

It is an approximation of your location.

Realistically, there are only two Buffalo stations that will work for you with an attic antenna, WUTV and WNED. Also, CTV (CFTO) is on VHF channel 8.

An eight bay UHF aimed in two directions may work and may not work, as multi path increases with antennas aimed in two directions. That is made even more likely with an antenna in the attic. You are a better candidate for two antennas each with their own down lead; a VHF/UHF for Canadian stations, and a second UHF only for Buffalo. You would use an external tuner for the stations in Grand Island. Due to adjacent channel issues reception of the Buffalo stations located in Colden and Boston, south of Buffalo, would be impossible unless you install an outdoor antenna with sufficient rejection of channel 35 from Hamilton.

Last edited by Tower Guy; 14-Mar-2021 at 7:04 PM.
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Old 14-Mar-2021, 10:01 PM   #5
Kona Blue
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Tower Guy
Thanks for the feedback. The two separate antennas are what I am leaning towards but need a little bit of clarification on the external tuner. Are you referring to a signal combiner up in the attic as I would like to use only one signal cable down to the TV?

Can you make a recommendation on which reasonably priced antennas I should be shopping for?

I have read where the cables from each antenna need to be the exact same length and type and the antennas should be around 2-4 feet apart. Am I correct?

Thanks
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Old 14-Mar-2021, 10:27 PM   #6
Tower Guy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kona Blue View Post
Tower Guy
Thanks for the feedback. The two separate antennas are what I am leaning towards but need a little bit of clarification on the external tuner. Are you referring to a signal combiner up in the attic as I would like to use only one signal cable down to the TV?

Can you make a recommendation on which reasonably priced antennas I should be shopping for?

I have read where the cables from each antenna need to be the exact same length and type and the antennas should be around 2-4 feet apart. Am I correct?

Thanks
I would consider a ANT-751 for the Canadian stations. I would not recommend trying to combine that antenna at all. Iíd suggest that a second US antenna get connected to an inexpensive HDTV tuner that is connected to an HDMI input of your TV set.

The best antenna for the Buffalo stations would depend on if you want to try for NBC, ABC, and CBS, which would require that you install that one antenna on the roof.
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Old 15-Mar-2021, 1:17 PM   #7
Kona Blue
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I am going to start with an antenna for the Canadian stations. It is beginning to sound like the attic is not the best location and will have to rethink what can be mounted outside. Thanks for the help
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Old 15-Mar-2021, 2:51 PM   #8
Tower Guy
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When you are ready to try for the Buffalo stations the 91XG will be the best antenna for you. It has sufficient rejection off the back to reduce the signal of channel 35 from Hamilton by about 28 dB and also has a broad enough pattern toward Buffalo to pick up Grand Island and the harder to receive stations on channels 33, 34, and 36 from Colden/Boston simultaneously. When aiming the 91XG, tune in either WIVB or WKBW and tweak the antenna direction for the best signal quality on your TV set.

Last edited by Tower Guy; 15-Mar-2021 at 2:55 PM.
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Old 15-Mar-2021, 7:04 PM   #9
Kona Blue
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Tower Guy
Just so I have this right and I am asking the question again due to confusion at my end, but are you still saying that I cannot combine the 91XG and the ANT-751 to use only one down feed wire?

Thanks for the help getting me a solution
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Old 15-Mar-2021, 10:23 PM   #10
Tower Guy
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In your case attempting to combine the two antennas simply won’t work. This is because channel 35 from Hamilton is roughly 50 dB stronger than channels 34 and 36 from Buffalo. Digital tv on adjacent channels works only if the signal strength difference on adjacent channels is less than 30 dB. The 91XG has about 28 dB rejection of channel 35 when the antenna is aimed at Buffalo. That would make Hamilton 22 dB stronger than WNLO/WIVB and WKBW.

If any attempt is made to combine antennas, Hamilton’s channel 35 will prevent reception of channels 34 and 36 from Buffalo and would be a waste of time.

There is no other way to make Hamilton weak enough to receive NBC and ABC from Buffalo other than using a specific dedicated antenna properly aimed for Buffalo.
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Old 15-Mar-2021, 11:01 PM   #11
rabbit73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kona Blue View Post
Tower Guy
Just so I have this right and I am asking the question again due to confusion at my end, but are you still saying that I cannot combine the 91XG and the ANT-751 to use only one down feed wire?
Tower Guy is correct. CBS, ABC, and NBC are very weak and blocked by terrain.



https://www.rabbitears.info/searchma...tudy_id=231919





ATSC Recommended Practice:
Receiver Performance Guidelines
Document A/74:2010, 7 April 2010
RECEIVER PERFORMANCE GUIDELINES

5.4.2 Adjacent Channel Rejection

The receiver should meet or exceed the thresholds given in Table 5.2 for rejection of first adjacent-channel interference at the desired signal levels shown above the columns therein.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Tower Guy View Post
I’d suggest that a second US antenna get connected to an inexpensive HDTV tuner that is connected to an HDMI input of your TV set.
I suggest that you connect the second antenna to a Mediasonic HW-150 converter box with its output connected to the HDMI input the TV.
https://forum.tvfool.com/showthread....3462#post63462



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDQzvFG3chs

The HW-150 will allow you to add a channel after a scan using the Manual Search window in the menu. This keeps you from having to rescan over and over again when hunting for a missing channel.

Attached Images
File Type: jpg Kona BlueTVFmap2.jpg (105.9 KB, 566 views)
File Type: jpg Kona BlueTVFreportRE2.jpg (286.5 KB, 555 views)
File Type: jpg Kona BlueTVFp3WKBW.jpg (97.5 KB, 551 views)
File Type: jpg First Adjacent Channel Thresholds2.jpg (78.6 KB, 558 views)
File Type: jpg Mediasonic HW-150 Manual Search2.jpg (58.6 KB, 553 views)
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Last edited by rabbit73; 16-Mar-2021 at 12:08 AM.
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Old 16-Mar-2021, 1:47 PM   #12
Kona Blue
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Got it and thanks for all the info. I have a lot more to learn. I always thought the terrain would be a problem and the elevation screenshot shows that. Thanks again
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Old 16-Mar-2021, 6:06 PM   #13
Tower Guy
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Originally Posted by Kona Blue View Post
Got it and thanks for all the info.
You are welcome. I grew up in Niagara County, NY. I know the reception difficulties caused by the Niagara escarpment. In your case I was surprised to see the extra hill a few miles west of the escarpment.

I always enjoyed watching hockey night in Canada with my dad. I rooted for the Maple Leafs. The Sabres didnít exist then.
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Old 16-Mar-2021, 7:38 PM   #14
rabbit73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tower Guy View Post
.....I was surprised to see the extra hill a few miles west of the escarpment.
Here is a terrain profile using different software:



You are on the edge of a dead zone (no color):

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File Type: jpg Kona BlueTVFcovWKBW.JPG (208.9 KB, 538 views)
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Old 16-Mar-2021, 9:38 PM   #15
Kona Blue
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The dead zone makes sense since I am in the shadow of the escarpment. I am down near the lake so anyone in town closer to the escarpment would be completely out of luck. I tried one of those stick-on flat cheap Amazon antennas behind the downstairs TV and surprisingly it can pick up WUTV with some freezing so maybe a proper antenna in the attic would get me one or two channels from Buffallo. Will have to give that a try.
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Old 21-Mar-2021, 7:49 PM   #16
Tower Guy
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You have a neighbor in St Catherine’s with success with Buffalo. Go to post 1949 in this thread.

https://www.digitalhome.ca/threads/o....36534/page-98
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