Antenna advice

[nateonearth]

Hi, Friends.
I'd really appreciate some guidance on the right type of antenna for picking up digital tv signals over the air in my location. I've attached my TV Fool results.

The stations that TV Fool predicts in green are all we need: CBS, NBC, ABC and PBS.

Our home is surrounded by a perimeter of tall trees, but it's a "thin" perimeter, just a few trees thick…if that makes sense.

Thanks for any suggestions!

Radar-Digital.png

[John Candle]

How many floors above ground 1 , 2 , 3 ? How many tv's to connect? The Tv transmissions are strong at your location , try one of these indoor antennas with one tv that is located above ground. The tv must be a digital tv or have a digital converter box connected to a analog tv. http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=233 . And understand this about Real and Virtual digital Tv Channels. http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=695

[nateonearth]

Sorry, should've included that info in my first post.

Our only TV is a recent model 46" Sony Bravia (KDL46V5100). This should be OK without a converter box, right? If not, I do have a Sunkey SK-801ATSC, but it seems pretty slow to switch channels in my testing so far.

The TV is located on the 1st floor. I know this puts reception at a disadvantage. Was hoping to not have to crawl around on the roof, but I know it may be necessary.

Thanks for the links, John. I'll check them out!

[mtownsend]

Hello and welcome!

Yes, you TV will work without an external converter box. Your TV has a built-in tuner capable of receiving digital TV (ATSC) broadcasts.

BTW, indoor antennas are always more susceptible to random signal issues than outdoor antennas. This includes things like unknown building materials, signal reflections, people walking by, electrical interference, antenna obstruction, etc. Although it is possible for indoor antennas to work in some situations, I still urge most users to consider an outdoor antenna for a better overall viewing experience.

Your strongest channels are coming from a lot of different directions. For this, I would suggest two possibilities:



1) Try an omni antenna like the Channel Master 3000A or Winegard MS-2000 on your roof.

Advantages: Omni design allows the antenna to pick up signals from multiple directions without having to adjust the antenna each time. NOTE: Antennas are never perfectly omni-directional, so even though it claims to be an omni antenna, you should still experiment a bit with aiming the antenna in different directions during initial installation for optimum reception.

Disadvantages: Omni antennas are susceptible to multipath (a.k.a., "ghosting", multiple signal "echoes" entering the antenna from all directions). This might make it more difficult for your tuner to lock on to some channels. Omni antennas also have relatively low gain intrinsic gain (not counting the gain of the built-in amplifier), so don't expect it to pull in the weaker, more distant stations.



2) Use a high gain antenna like the Winegard HD7696P and an antenna rotator like the Channel Master 9521A.

Advantages: High gain antennas are much better at dealing with multipath, so if your environment is susceptible to lots of multipath (usually places with lots of tall buildings, trees, and/or hills for the signals to bounce off of), these antennas can help clean up the signal. The high intrinsic gain of the antenna also makes it possible to pick up weaker, more distant stations, if you aim the antenna properly.

Disadvantages: You cannot pick up stations from a wide spread of directions at the same time. You need to turn the antenna each time you want to watch a different group of transmitters (e.g., Portland vs. Concord/Manchester stations).



Since you mentioned that you are only interested in the "green" stations on your list, I would start with an omni antenna first. However, if multipath turns out to be a big problem, you may need to switch to a more directional antenna later.



BTW, if you go with one of the larger directional antennas (i.e., HD7698P) and add a pre-amp (like the Channel Master 7777, Winegard AP-8700, or Antennacraft 10G202), you may even be able to pick up some of the stations from Boston.



One more note... Your report indicates that it was only resolved to "street level" accuracy. Perhaps the address lookup engine was not able to resolve your exact location. Just to make sure you have an accurate signal analysis, it would be best if you could re-run the analysis for your exact location. You can do this with the Interactive Maps tool (here). After entering your address, you can change the location of the signal analysis by dragging/dropping the orange marker until it is right on top of your house (switch the map to "satellite" or "hybrid" view for the best detail). When you are satisfied with the location and antenna height settings, you can click on the "Make Radar Plot" button to generate a new signal analysis report.

[nateonearth]

Thanks for all the detailed info, mtownsend! I updated my TV Fool report as you suggested.

Here's the link...

Seems like the more accurate TV Fool location for my house shows a weaker signal for at least one of the channels (CBS). Do you still think I'll be OK with your previous suggestions?...

Thanks!

[mtownsend]

I think the previous suggestion still stands.

Just be sure to get the antenna outside and up high. Your report was done with an assumed antenna height of 10 feet. It think you'll find that if you get the antenna up higher, the signal for most channels will get stronger.

[nateonearth]

Hi, folks.
Sorry for the delay in updating my situation. I did a little trial.

I picked up a Philips Tilting Amplifier Antenna (SDV6122/27) from Walmart.

I placed it in an upstairs room next to a window pointing in the general direction of the TV stations in my area (see previous TV Fool report).

Then, in an effort to avoid running coax from upstairs to my TV downstairs...I plugged the coax cable from the antenna upstairs into a nearby coax wallplate (that normally outputs the Cable provider signal to a TV).

Down in the basement, I switched around the existing Cable coax splitters, so that the antenna signal from upstairs now feeds to the coax wallplate by my TV downstairs.

To my pleasant surprise, it worked

As for channels received, I get the basic network channels that I need and they look great, except...the CBS channel is pixelated sometimes. I've played with adjusting the direction of the antenna, but depending on which direction I turn it, I end up losing a different channel.

So, now I'm wondering about a couple things...

1) mtownsend suggested a "Channel Master 3000A or Winegard MS-2000," but they cost 2-3x more than the basic Phillips antenna I'm testing with. Do you guys think the CM or WG would have a performance advantage worth the extra $$$?...and would they still work better even if located inside?

2) If I "go for it" and try to mount one on the roof, I'll need a bit of guidance. Could you give me any advice (or point me to another post) on what type of mount, how to install, how to get the coax inside the house without creating a water leak through the roof, etc?

3) What's the general consensus on DIY antennas (i.e. 2x4 with coathangers)? How does their performance compare with, say, the CM and WG recommended above? Worth the effort?

Thanks for taking the time to consider my questions. I'm sure they've all been asked before, so feel free to just point me to old posts.

[mtownsend]

Originally Posted by nateonearth

I picked up a Philips Tilting Amplifier Antenna (SDV6122/27) from Walmart.

As for channels received, I get the basic network channels that I need and they look great, except...the CBS channel is pixelated sometimes. I've played with adjusting the direction of the antenna, but depending on which direction I turn it, I end up losing a different channel.

1) mtownsend suggested a "Channel Master 3000A or Winegard MS-2000," but they cost 2-3x more than the basic Phillips antenna I'm testing with. Do you guys think the CM or WG would have a performance advantage worth the extra $$$?...and would they still work better even if located inside?

Omni antennas are very susceptible to multipath because they can take in signal from any direction. That means signals bouncing around the walls of your house, off neighboring houses, trucks, hills, trees, fences, or anything else can potentially cause interference that makes it harder for your tuner to lock on to channels.

I would not recommend using an omni antenna indoors. They really should be used up on the roof, out in the open as much as possible. Being on the roof offers two major advantages: 1) the antenna is outside and no longer surrounded by signal reflecting/absorbing objects in its immediate vicinity; and 2) being higher up is usually better overall because you get above most of the ground-level "clutter" (houses, vehicles, fences, some trees, etc.) that get in the way of your signal. When you're above the average roof-line in a neighborhood, you usually get a pretty open view in almost all directions.

Since an omni antenna cannot filter out any multipath, you want to install the antenna in a location that has as little multipath as possible.



BTW, the Philips antenna you tried is not an omni antenna, so it may need to be rotated a bit to pick up channels from different directions. It's not a very directional antenna either, so that means it too is susceptible to multipath problems indoors. The Philips antenna is somewhere in-between the omni antenna and directional antennas suggested earlier.



If you do install one of the omni antennas outside, then I do expect it to perform better than the Philips antenna inside. That's mostly because having the antenna outside will be a big improvement.

However, in regards to your comment on price, please do not think of the Channel Master or Winegard products as being a rip-off compared to the Philips antenna. The suggested antennas are designed for outdoor installation (can't do that with the Philips) and have better electronics in them (the Noise Figure spec on the amps in either antenna should be better than the Philips built-in amp). Both Channel Master and Winegard have a reputation of building cost-effective products because they usually work well and last a long time.

2) If I "go for it" and try to mount one on the roof, I'll need a bit of guidance. Could you give me any advice (or point me to another post) on what type of mount, how to install, how to get the coax inside the house without creating a water leak through the roof, etc?

There are lots of mounting choices depending on how your building is constructed. Some good options for most people are:

1) Chimney mount. Like the Channel Master 9067. Straps go around your chimney (assuming you have one) and the brackets hold on to the mast. It does not require any holes to be put into your roof or chimney.

2) Wall or eave mount. Like the Channel Master 9023, 9030, or 9032. Mounting holes go into the side of the house/eave instead of the roof, so the chance of leaks is minimal. The mounts should go near the top of the roof so that the mast can extend above the roof-line and hold the antenna higher than the roof (ideally you want to clear the roof by at least around 4-5 feet).

3) Sled mount. For people with a flat roof. Sled mounts do not require any holes in the roof, and are held in place by some kind of counter-weight (e.g., cinder blocks, sand, water, etc.). The sled sits on the roof, and the mast attaches to the sled.

4) Tripod. If none of the other options work, or if you need a really sturdy mount (to deal with high winds or heavy antennas), then you should consider a tripod. Yes, it does require bolting through the roof, but if done right (using sealing compound at each mount point), it should not leak.



For any of these options, it's usually possible to find an attic vent or other opening under the eaves of the house to get the coax into the building. If there is a wire mesh or screen covering the vents, you just need to make a tiny hole to allow an RG6 cable to go through.

3) What's the general consensus on DIY antennas (i.e. 2x4 with coathangers)? How does their performance compare with, say, the CM and WG recommended above? Worth the effort?

The "bow tie" antennas you speak of do work pretty well, but they are UHF-only antennas. The DIY antenna is based on the same principles as any store-bought bowtie antenna, so you can expect performance to be about the same.

None of the bowtie antennas pick up VHF very well, so if you want your VHF channels (and you have a few), then these antennas are not a good fit for you. The directional antennas recommended above are high-VHF and UHF combo antennas (channels 7-69), which is more appropriate for your situation.

If you're the handy type and like to tinker with these kinds of things, then the process of building an antenna can be a nice learning experience. If working with wires and tools is not that interesting to you, then I wouldn't bother.

Some people claim these DIY antennas save money, but I don't think I'd do it just for the sake of saving money. Commercially built bowtie antennas aren't really that expensive and they will last a long time even when installed outdoors. Also, if your time is worth anything to you, then you aren't really saving any money when you factor in the amount of time needed to find the parts, do the work, and make tweaks after you're done.

[nateonearth]

Good points, mtownsend. I trust your expertise ; )

I'll probably end up going with an omni-directional antenna on the roof as suggested. Will try to remember to post back with my results.

Thanks again for pointing me in the right direction!

Take care,
Nate

[Tigerbangs]

I have done a number of antennas in Southern Maine, and know the pitfalls. I am strongly against using an omnidirectional antenna, as they have no gain of their own, relying solely on an amplifier for gain, and they have no ability to reject multipath, which is a digital signal killer.

I have a very different take on what you need, and it has proven itself in a number of Southern Maine installations.

I would use a 2-antenna installation: an AntennasDirect DB4 UHF antenna along with an Winegard YA-6713 6-element VHF high-band antenna mounted on the same mast, separated by at least 4'. Combine the 2 antennas into one coaxial cable using a Pico-Macom UVSJ antenna joiner. If you follow these directions, you will see all the major networks including FOX, PBS and CW.

Aim the DB4 at 30 degrees, as measured by your compass, and aim the YA-6713 at 0 degrees: you'll see far more stations with this solution that you ever will with an omni-directional antenna, and your reception will be far more reliable in bad weather.
Please see the attached link for the results of a similar installation in Southern Maine

http://www.hdtvantennalabs.com/forum...it=Maine#p2409

[nateonearth]

Thanks for the "second opinion", Tigerbangs. I'll definitely investigate it.

So, the pros would be more channels and better reception...and the cons would be more expensive up front costs and trickier installation?

Also, forgive my ignorance, but when you say "Aim the DB4 at 30 degrees, as measured by your compass, and aim the YA-6713 at 0 degrees", 0 degrees equals north, right?

[Tigerbangs]

Originally Posted by nateonearth

Thanks for the "second opinion", Tigerbangs. I'll definitely investigate it.

So, the pros would be more channels and better reception...and the cons would be more expensive up front costs and trickier installation?

Also, forgive my ignorance, but when you say "Aim the DB4 at 30 degrees, as measured by your compass, and aim the YA-6713 at 0 degrees", 0 degrees equals north, right?

Yes, 0 degrees is due north...

[nateonearth]

Hi, Folks. Happy Thanksgiving! Anyone still listening out there?

I'm 90% setup. I went with the AD DB4 UHF w/ WG YA-6713 VHF on the same mast. I get nearly all the channels I was looking for.

Here's a link to my TV fool report.

The one I'm missing is 26.1 (PBS), which is kinda odd since it's near the top of the list.

So, I'm looking at adding a pre-amp. Previously, mTownsend had suggested a Channel Master 7777, Winegard AP-8700, or Antennacraft 10G202. Given the channel I'm looking for, do you guys still think those are good suggestions? I read somewhere that you can get overload with strong nearby signals, but I'd like to try and pull in 26.1.

Thanks for your thoughts!

[Dave Loudin]

Nate, look at the radar plot on your TVFool report and I'll bet you will figure it out - that station is way off in a different direction. Remember that antenna gain varies tremendously by direction. The radar plot's value is in showing where you need antenna gain the most and where you need it the least.

Tigerbangs told you to point your DB4 at 30 degrees in order to put that antenna's peak gain in that direction with the hope that there would still be enough gain towards 26.1. Before you try a preamplifier, try turning the DB4 in towards north a little bit at a time to see if 26.1 pops in without losing anything else.

[Tigerbangs]

I think that Dave is probably right about channel 26: I have a feeling that you are just in an antenna null where you have the DB-4 aimed.

As far as PBS goes, can you pick up WCBB from Augusta decently?

WMEA is so close that I have to think that yours is a multipath issue and not a signal strength issue for you. If you decide to use a preamp, be sure to use a high-input preamp like a Winegard HDP-269, as you have enough signal arriving at the antenna to create an overload situation with many preamplifiers