Help with selecting antenna for Lebanon, Tenn

[ag19]

Help with selecting antenna for Lebanon, Tenn

Here is my tv fool report *http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8d172960ca778b

Note: W11BD channel 11 was shutdown six months ago. I was planning on a antenna outside at 25 feet above ground. There are trees in the background and neighborhood. I'm interested in the Nashville 29 degree span from 253 degrees to 282 degrees, others would be okay but not essential. Using a inside amplified RCA uhf vhf antenna I pick up all digital channels in this span (green & yellow @ 76-90 % strength) except for channels 27(ABC), 10(NBC), 8(PBS), and 23(CW). I noticed that I pick up a stronger signal when pointing my inside antenna at 240 degrees instead of 281 degrees. Two of the 281 degree stations that I do pickup don't come in at all at 281 degrees. The other stations are 1 to 6 percent stronger at 240 degrees. This may be due to the Castle Height Hill that runs across Lebanon (its higher at the 281 angle). I talked to a local tv shop and he commented that since the digital conversion some people are blocked by the Hill including outside antennas. I may be spinning wheels trying to deduce anything from my experience of inside antennas.

I have two tv's that I plan to use. I would rather opt for a non-rotator system even if I have to put up two antennas but will settle with a rotator system if thats whats needed. If I need a more highly directive antenna with less span etc then so be it.

I did find a example on the net where the Mt Juliet area (closer by 20 miles) was recommended to use a Winegard HD-7082P and pointed at the NBC station WSMV-DT which is in the middle of the span of Nashville channels. Using the hdtvantennalabs.com site, their automated antenna system recommended a winegard hd8200u, a preamp and a rotor. Solidsignal sent their recommendation of a Winegard HD7696P ( I did request a uhf, high vhf antenna). I requested this type antenna thinking that because I already receive the one low vhf channel at 86% that I could use a AB switch for this channel and get a smaller, more powerful antenna tuned for the high vhf and uhf channels. If this doesn't make sense please comment – I'm here to ask the experts about something I'm not very familiar with. I will purchase a all vhf uhf antenna if necessary. I do want to pick up CBS even if it is vhf low.

I was planning for a preamp with low noise (cable longer than 20 feet per hdtvantennalabs.com). Even though WHTN (38) is not in the span I'm pointing antenna at, is this station too close to have a preamp? Do I have to be aware of analog local stations also? I don't know of anyone picking up WRTN-LP analog station or whether this channel is broadcasting or not? Is there a certain NM(db) or Signal(pwr) that dictates a problem with using a preamp or is it just a function of miles from the transmitter?

What type of antenna is best for the 2Edge path? What type of antenna is best for areas that have hills interrupting the signals?

Aren't most beam widths actually half distance widths? If that is the case and my span is 29 degrees and 30 miles, then would I need a antenna rated at 30 degrees beam width and a distance of 60 miles?

I'm really just interested in the digital signals, however how are other people picking up these analog stations? Do they have a tuner that passes the analog signals through to their old sets? What is a good tuner that has good sensitivity and low noise?
If I purchase a new digital tv and am concerned with OTA use, do all the digital tv's have good sensitivity and low noise? Maybe some answers from the experts will help my future purchases. Thanks for all your trouble.

[John Candle]

The information you have presented is well stated , I Like That , Even though you do not know that much you are trying and you grasp basic information real fast , I Like That. Half power beam width is the beam width of the antenna , the angle from the center line of the length of the antenna that antenna ability to receive a signal drops to half. The half power becomes more noticeable as the antennas distance from the transmitter is increased because the signal is weaker. Half power beam width is good to know because the Tv stations off to the sides of the main stations to the front of the antenna , The half power helps one gauge / have a idea of how far off center the weaker or stronger station can be received. Beam width is also directly tied in with multipath, during the analog days of Tv reception ghosts were a real problem , Now with digital Tv the digital tuners have multipath signal correction and to a large degree the digital tuner will correct multipath and this is one of the many reasons that digital Tv has crisp clear pictures. The digital tuners work so well that now days clear pictures are received on the sides of the Tv antenna and the back of the antenna. During the days of analog only Tv Tv transmissions received at the sides and back of the antenna would produce unwatchable pictures the ghosts would be so bad. Can a digital tuner be overloaded with multipath ?? Yes and when it happens the picture will break up in to blocks and or just go blank.

[John Candle]

Here is information about , Real Digital Tv Channels , Virtual Digital Tv CHannels , Analog Tv Channels , http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=695 . Here is information of aiming Tv antennas. http://www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html

[John Candle]

I recommend the Winegard HD7082P , aim the antenna at about 255 magnetic compass. Try the reception with out a preamp or distribution amp connected to the 2 Tv's with a 2 way splitter. If a little more signal power is needed to get signal thru the 2 way splitter and lengths of coax , down the channel lineup to WRTN 17 , with the 2 Tv's connected. Then I suggest a Winegard AP8700 preamp. Channel 38 is a strong channel and will be received. I suggest a Strong and Sturdy antenna mount such as , tripod antenna mount , chimney mount , peak of the roof eave mount.

[GroundUrMast]

What type of antenna is best for the 2Edge path?

Often the mounting location will be as important as the antenna type. In the clear, a smaller antenna with less directivity and gain will likely do better than a large high gain in an attic or obstructed by trees or a building. On your TVF Report, the list of station call-signs are HTML links to a profile of the terrain between the transmitter, displayed on the left and your location shown on the right. Your report indicates 2-edge paths, true, but they are not severe. Your report indicates good to excellent signal levels. I agree with JC's antenna suggestion (provided WTVF intends to continue operation on real channel 5, an HD7696P by the same vendor would offer access to the WTVF translator on real channel 50 with virtually identical performance on channels 7 - 69).

...how are other people picking up these analog stations? Do they have a tuner that passes the analog signals through to their old sets?

Some set-top converter boxes offer 'analog-pass-through'. When turned off, signals are passed through from the STB antenna 'in' port to the antenna 'out' port. All new consumer televisions sold in the US, able to receive QAM (CATV digital), are required to include the ability to tune and display NTSC (OTA & CATV analog) and ATSC (OTA digital).

[John Candle]

If you will be using a converter , http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=380 , If you will buy a new Tv then these are brands I suggest , Samsung , Panasonic , Sony , LG Electronics.

[John Candle]

Attn: ag19 , when communicating new information please continue this original post by clicking on the Post Reply button this original post will be updated and ever one will see it.

[ag19]

Originally Posted by John Candle

Half power beam width is the beam width of the antenna , the angle from the center line of the length of the antenna that antenna ability to receive a signal drops to half. .

John Candle:

Thanks for your reply and time you took to help. Yes, I now see that it is a half power beam width and not a half distance widths. Unfortunately because I have only one channel in the middle of the span, it looks like I'll be using half power signals on both ends to pick up all my channels. I read on the internet that some people call the half power beam widths the 3db beam widths. You lose 3db signal or half power if you are picking up your channels at the beam widths. Luckily, the channels that I want do look like they have good enough NB values and maybe they will not be blocked by hills or buildings, etc.

I'm planning to put antenna in the ground 2 feet and placed at the top edge of the gable of my house with two or three clamps in solid wood structure.

With all of my many questions, yes I am trying to grasp some of the material to better understand tvfool printouts and the antenna situation. Thanks for the links for more information.

I'm now looking closely using the Winegard HD-7082P as a starting point (81.99 at solidsignal).

Considering the advice of hdtvantennalabs.com of selecting a antenna that is 1 grade above what is usually needed to safeguard the time and money spent on putting up a antenna especially if you happen to be in a dead spot, etc - it looks like I can get a HD7084P for $7.00 more which will give me a average uhf gain of 13 instead of 12 while beam width and FB are about the same. The HD7084P is rated 45 miles uhf where the HD7082P is 35 miles uhf. Thanks again for your reply.

[ag19]

Reply to John Candle and Groundurmast:

John Candle:
I posted a reply to a quote to you. Is this not posted the same as the Reply to Thread?


GroundUrMast:
Thanks GroundUrMast for your response and trouble you took to reply.

“On your TVF Report, the list of station call-signs are HTML links to a profile of the terrain between the transmitter, displayed on the left and your location shown on the right.”

I've looked at these, what do the colors tell you? It seems I have either solid green or yellow on most of them.

“I agree with JC's antenna suggestion (provided WTVF intends to continue operation on real channel 5, an HD7696P by the same vendor would offer access to the WTVF translator on real channel 50 with virtually identical performance on channels 7 – 69).”

WTVF (CBS) used to be digital on uhf but changed to original position real channel 5 (very low vhf) after digital conversion. I don't think they were satisfied with a high end uhf (50) because those are the ones that lose more power in cable, etc. and the distance issues with uhf. They are the only major network I can pick up with rabbit ears. I wish they had stayed with uhf. The antennas would be a lot smaller if not for this one station. I would consider the HD7698P, HD7697P, or HD7696P if I could find a small low vhf antenna that I could install in attic. I really don't want rabbit ears on both of my tv's after I install the outside antenna just to pick up real channel 5.

What is this WTVF translator on real channel 50? Are you saying I can pick up CBS using this translator station? I assumed that this was their previous channel they were using and that it wasn't active now. Do I need to call WTVF and check on this?

[John Candle]

Wikipedia says that WTVF has applied for a fill in coverage transmitter on UHF channel 50 and has been granted a STA - Special Temporary Authority to transmit on UHF 50 until the full UHF 50 application is approved. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WTVF

[ADTech]

WTVF operated pre-transition on UHF 56. When they transitioned on Jun 12, 2009, they transferred digital operations to VHF 5 at 22 kW ERP. Within several weeks, they applied for and received permission to operate a UHF 50 translator with 100 kW ERP (STA) citing poor indoors coverage with their low-VHF signal. Currently, they are simulcasting on both channels and will continue to do so for the immediate future.

More recently, WTVF applied for and received a construction permit to relocate their primary license from VHF 5 to UHF 25 at 1,000 kW ERP. In conjunction with their request to move to channel 25, they asked for permission to maintain the channel 5 signal at 22 kW as a translator. This particular portion of their application has not been acted upon and it is questionable it it would be approved by the FCC.

Haven recently spoken to WTVF's engineering staff, the process of switching to UHF 25 has begun but it has a long lead time. The engineer was not able to be specific, but he hinted that it probably won't be completed this year due to lead times for equipment and installation. In the meantime, they will continue transmitting as they currently are on VHF 5 and UHF 50. When the channel 25 signal does come on line, the UHF 50 translator will be discontinued. The future of VHF 5 operation has not been determined.

[GroundUrMast]

Thanks ADTech... my bad... this is not the first time you have shared this information re. WTVF.


ag19, The path profile color scheme is similar to that used to indicate relative temperature... hot at the source (white, red, orange...) cooler further from the source (green, blue, violet, down to white - the coldest). All of this is relative, look to your original report to see an accurate prediction in calibrated units of dBm. I find the profile image most helpful when trying to visualize the obstructing terrain. I don't spend time trying to relate color to noise margin or signal level. As I said before, "Your report indicates good to excellent signal levels." All of the antennas mentioned so far, have more than enough gain based on the predicted signal levels, at least down the list to WRTN. The extra gain should translate into no need for a preamp or distribution amplifier.

Again, all path profile images are presented with the transmitter on the left and the receive location on the right.