need help getting ksl in the uintas

nate · 13-Apr-2015, 11:35 AM

hi, I am in need of some help. We have a cabin in the uinta mountains range and ever since the change to digital we do not get KSL. what do I need to do to get that channel? I do not know anything about the antenna that we are using just that its on top of the roof and the cabin is surrounded by tall trees. http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...f1f099f4998478
Thanks Nate

ADTech · 13-Apr-2015, 1:01 PM

Your plot, as provided, suggests that receiving KSL is somewhere between unlikely, improbably, and impossible. However, there are several checks that need to be made before deciding what your odds truly are.

Did you use the 'accurate method' to pinpoint your rooftop to make your plot?

Can you provide a photo of your existing antenna? What specific direction is it aimed?

Can you provide a photo of what the antenna is looking at when/if aimed directly at the SLC tower location?

During the digital transition, KSL abandoned low-VHF channel 5 (low-VHF isn't particularly friendly to digital broadcasting) in favor of UHF channel 38. One of the favorable attributes of low VHF was its ability to readily bend (diffract) over mountainous terrain while UHF does not and is far more a "line-of-sight" with a much lesser ability to diffract over terrain.

Chances are, your old antenna is a large VHF model that isn't a match for what is now being transmitted from SLC. A photo will clear up that question.

StephanieS · 13-Apr-2015, 1:06 PM

Hello Nate,

The good news is that KSL ought to be doable for your location via digital translator K36FS-D. Your description of trees in your immediate vicinity does though highlight some problems that could result in non-reception.

First, KSL via K36FS-D is at 16.9 dB strength with a broadcast power of 284 watts and a distance of 51.1 miles. Normally, signals this weak require a more robust antenna and clear pathway for reception success. When you introduce obstructions (read - trees)to signals of this strength level, the signal may be reduced sufficiently to drop it below reception threshold.

There is a good chance this is the situation for K36FS-D.

I would also call KSL's engineering department and confirm K36FS-D is broadcasting. If K36FS-D is indeed operating normally this leaves you with some choices which we can cover later.

It may be helpful to post a picture of your antenna you are using. The forum's collective wisdom could likely identify whether it is a proper application or not especially in light of the transition to digital broadcasting.

If your antenna is a reasonable fit for your application, there are two options really - the first being play with your antenna location and try to find a spot where you get somewhat of an opening towards the NNW. The other option is to get above the trees and eliminate obstructions to the weak signal you are trying to receive. In the old days, analog broadcasts were more tolerant of obstructions. Today, in the digital television world the signal is there or it isn't. There is no "slow fade" to snow.

Thus, the best thing you can do to help us help you better is be able to provide additional information on your antenna and details of your setup such as # of TVs, splits etc.

This could mean you might need a new antenna tailored precisely for UHF signals (which is what you need) or a more involved installation requiring you to mount on a tree to clear obstructions such as this type of mount:

Cheers,
SS

nate · 13-Apr-2015, 1:55 PM

I will get a picture of the antenna but if a 1970's antenna will not cut it what should we get? The trees sway in the wind so would that be bad to mount it to them? Last time we were up we pointed it in the direction it said to get the signal and we did get it until the sun came out and it warmed up above 40 degrees Fahrenheit. We get others and they come in clear and good. I will check with ksl on all that you asked too. Thanks for all the help
Nate

StephanieS · 13-Apr-2015, 2:50 PM

Hi Nate,

Without out a picture of your antenna I'm hesitant to guess what you have. If as you say it was installed in the 70s when KSL's primary signal was on low-VHF channel 5, you probably have an VHF only or all band antenna. This would mean it's wide and long.

Today you have no need for any VHF support. The closest you come is K08JR, which while information is sketchy on that signal. It does report being tied to KUTV CBS from Salt Lake. K08JR is rendered moot though by the fact K26GH-D rebroadcasts KUTV as well with a stronger signal at your location. Thus, according to your plot, if I were installing I would go with a UHF only design.

Question: When adjusting your existing antenna were you pointing AT Salt Lake (magnetic 245) or magnetic 330? Weak signals tend to vanish during the day. This is due to the atmosphere often being more tranquil at night meaning less resistance for weak signals.

If you are pointing at the Salt Lake Cluster, I would abandon that and focus on magnetic heading 330 translator cluster.

Magnetic 330 offers you via digital translator Salt Lake ABC, CBS, CW, PBS and NBC. FOX appears available via analog K40FY.

RE: Tree swaying. Sure, trees do sway. It may be a minor issue. ADTech may have some thoughts about this. I've never read anyone having issues with an a tree mount losing signal due to swaying.

Another option is a free standing tower. How tall are the trees around your cabin?

RE: replacement antenna. There are two ways one could go with this. If I had a tree mount (or tower) and was above the trees with an unobstructed view, I might install a Antennas Direct 91XG orientated at magnetic 335. The 91XG's precise beam and gain would get me the most signal into my coax. Plus, if you were mounted on a tree, a preamp would be a good idea as well to offset the likely longer coax run signal losses. Another fine option would be an Antennas Direct DB8e if you had to mount lower and had only partial pathway blockage. The DB8e's wide surface gives it the ability to "follow" signals that may get reflected due to blockage.

I run a 91XG orientated to magnetic 140 for a CBS translator 55 miles away, 7.9 db signal strength that broadcasts with 400 watts.

91XG:

Cheers.

ADTech · 13-Apr-2015, 2:51 PM

Dang it! i checked the closer translator site but didn't check the one 51 miles away.

I will submit that a 284 watt UHF signal from 51 miles away is unlikely to be stable and reliable, regardless of the signal analysis, especially through trees.

StephanieS · 13-Apr-2015, 3:23 PM

I would agree with this in respect to the trees. Nate, if you attempting the 51 mile translator site with tree blockage, disappointment will likely be the result. Hence, I wouldn't pump any money into it. I'm with ADTech here.

In regards to distant lower wattage translators I have success stories, so it can be done. Even my ANT751 works 98% reliably K23HT-D at 250 watts and 56 miles in line of sight conditions.

The key is line of sight.

If the terrain is as favorable as the TV Fool Map shows and if you get a clear shot at the NNW with the right antenna I'd put you at 65-70% you can do the 51 mile translators mostly to fully reliable with careful component installation.

Maybe I'm just the gooey optimist though.

Cheers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADTech

Dang it! i checked the closer translator site but didn't check the one 51 miles away.

I will submit that a 284 watt UHF signal from 51 miles away is unlikely to be stable and reliable, regardless of the signal analysis, especially through trees.

nate · 15-Apr-2015, 3:11 AM

I only have 1 tv that it is going to. We have tried moving it in that direction and many others. So do I need to get the Antennas Direct 91XG and what pre amp do I need? All this is helpful information and I feel like we are on the right path. Its seems simple with all your help. Do I need any special coax cable? And are pre amps good for reception?

nate · 15-Apr-2015, 12:13 PM

Looking over your comments again and saw I didnt say how tall the trees are. They are above the antenna by 5 feet. If I can get the antenna higher should I worry about lightning? Is the DB8e be a better fit for my situation? I just Google's K26GH-D and it said it did broadcast ksl. I will still follow up with ksl to see if it does. I can wait to go try out your suggestions and report back what happens.

ADTech · 15-Apr-2015, 12:24 PM

The DB8e will offer a better chance of picking up the lower UHF channels due to its higher gain, especially at the low end of the UHF band compared to the 91XG.

I'd pair it with the PA18 preamplifier and get it mounted above the trees, if possible (or trim the tree tops).

We recommend that all outdoor antennas be grounded in accordance with local or national electrical codes. There are extensive threads elsewhere in this forum that cover aspects of grounding. Keep in mind that antenna grounding is not meant to contain the effects of lightning, they are to 1) reduce the chance of lightning by draining off static charges making the antenna mast the same potential as ground and 2) protect against accidentally energizing the system should it come in contact with live power lines.

nate · 15-Apr-2015, 1:58 PM

Thanks for all the help and I will look into grounding the antenna. The antenna we have on the cabin is on a pole that is mounted to the roof. Its about 5feet tall and has 3 wires,plus the pole base plate,that holds it to the roof. Should I look into a different pole and ways to mount the new antenna? Or is it trial and error time?

ADTech · 15-Apr-2015, 3:00 PM

Depends on how sturdy/stable the existing mount and mast is. The DB8e is a fairly substantial antenna that's going to require some substantial mounting facility.

StephanieS · 16-Apr-2015, 4:43 AM

Ah cool, the discussion is continuing.

I see you are leaning towards a DB8e at a lower installation. My only caveat here is that while the DB8e is an excellent antenna, it cannot overcome signal degradation from the trees. The trees are a wild card and you won't know until you swap out antennas.

Reception could work out well, could be worse or could be the same. You just have to try.

The best practice though is to get line of sight (read: above the trees). Anything else puts you into foliage blocking scenarios which which are traditionally deal breakers for weak signals.

Cheers.

nate · 16-Apr-2015, 5:44 PM

Is there an antenna that will overcome signal degradation? I was looking at the DB8e and its big. Is that why it will help picking up the signal? And do I install the preamp at the tv set? I hope I am not asking to many questions.

rickbb · 16-Apr-2015, 5:55 PM

The preamp goes as close to the antenna as you can get, 2 to 3 feet.

No antenna will help get a signal from behind trees, it's like being in a shadow. Just like light, the signal will not "bend" around the tree to hit the antenna. Some of it will filter through the leaves and branches, but it's a hit or miss thing.

Your antenna might be in a hole in the leaves and get enough signal, or not. And then when the wind blows the leaves and limbs around it will be in the hole and out of the hole, etc.