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Old 12-Dec-2012, 4:03 PM   #1
ranchersd
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Two signals from same location. One great. The other, no so much.

I am excited as I draw closer to my chord cutting ceremony. I have been testing the signals in my area and am down to only one station that I am unable to receive on my "really would like to have" list. I am located in south east San Diego area and able to receive many of my desired channels without much effort. I anticipated needing more than one antenna as the three major broadcasting locations are all about 120 degrees from each other. I used an RCA ANT751 to bring in signals from two of the three locations. The third location is a greater distance (approx. 20 miles) and is on the other side of a small hill that I live on.

Below is the link for my signal analysis.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...cc497586396936

In the yellow section, you will notice my problem area. I have KMFB (cbs) and KGTV (abc) being broadcast from the same hill. I am able to receive the KFMB broadcast (good and solid picture) but I cannot get a trace of KGTV. For these two signals, I temporarily mounted my RCA ANT751 along with TVPRAMP1R pre-amp at about 21' on my chimney.

I have two questions.

First, does the data provided explain why I can receive KFMB well but not KGTV at all?

Secondly, is it likely that a better antenna (and pre-amp) and additional five feet to the installation height make the difference between none and acceptable reception for KGTV? If the answer is yes, would you recommend an antenna?

Thanks in advance.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...cc497586396936
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Old 12-Dec-2012, 5:41 PM   #2
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When signals are blocked by terrain, the results become less predictable. That you see one station but not the other is also understandable when the antenna is pointed so that it's perpendicular to the ideal aim. Experimenting with mounting location, height and aim may locate an acceptable position for the ANT-751. The San Diego market can be a single antenna market for some viewers, but many need two antennas.

The ANT-751 sounds as if it's serving well as a UHF antenna so consider adding a High-VHF antenna such as an Antennacraft Y10713 or Winegard YA1713. You can combine the UHF and VHF signals with a UVSJ. Mount the UHF antenna at least 3 feet above the VHF antenna, greater separation is ideal.

http://www.antennacraft.net/Antennas/AntennasVHF.html
http://www.winegarddirect.com/viewit...13%29&p=YA1713
http://www.amazon.com/Antennas-Direc...f+vhf+combiner
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Old 13-Dec-2012, 3:06 AM   #3
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Tv antennas receive the best at the front of the antenna. And smaller antennas also receive good at , front angles , back and back angles. With the least amount of reception on the sides of the antenna. (Big antennas also have the least amount of reception on the sides of the antenna).

I recommend aim the ANT751 antenna at 132 degree magnetic compass direction.

For the best reception of XHDTV-DT UHF channel 47 MyNetwork.

And this puts the 2 main groups of Digital Tv stations at angles to the ANT751 antenna.

Here is how to aim antennas , http://www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html.

The ANT751 antenna is being used as a UHF channels 14 thru 51 antenna for this reception situation.
_______________________________________________________________

Install a Winegard YA1713 VHF high band channels 7 thru 13 antenna aimed at about 315 degree magnetic compass direction.

This will put the YA1713 antenna at a in between aim direction for reception of , KFMB-TV channel 8 CBS , KGTV-DT channel 10 ABC at a front angle and put KSDX-LD channel 9 at a front angle to the YA1713 antenna for better reception of KSDX 9.

The YA1713 antenna can be adjusted direction for the best reception of , KFMB , KGTV-DT and KSDX.
________________________________________

The 2 antennas are connected together with a UVSJ = UHF/VHF Separator/Joiner.

Type the letters - uvsj - in the http://www.solidsignal.com , search box.
_____________________________________

Digital tuners can develop - Digital Glitches - that are not cleared out with a simple channel scan.

Do a Double Channel Rescan.

http://www.dtv.gov.rescan.html.
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Old 6-Feb-2013, 6:10 PM   #4
ranchersd
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Looking for more advice; one antenna solution hopefully

GroundUrMast and teleview. Thank you for your advice. I am surely grateful. I am also wondering if you would entertain one more scenario. I would prefer a one antenna solution. Additionally, I have an HOA that I must keep happy (or ignorant). The size of the Winegard YA1713 VHF is an issue that may cause trouble as it is bigger than my HOA allows by several feet. Here is my question. Is there a single antenna that you would recommend I try in order to get HDTV signals for UHF and VHF that is approximately 6' or smaller taking into consideration my original question of getting my last "must have" VHF channel KGTV? The performance and size of the antenna are my priorities. The cost of the antenna is a lesser concern.

Thanks in advance your time and attention.
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Old 6-Feb-2013, 9:15 PM   #5
GroundUrMast
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Two thoughts...

First, the FCC has taken your side regarding installation and use of a television receiving antenna. In short, the FCC says you may use an antenna of the size required to receive the desired signal. They also say that no zoning or other rules may hinder you from mounting as high as 12' above your roof. See: http://www.fcc.gov/guides/over-air-r...n-devices-rule. I would not start out with the intention of starting a fight with my neighbors, but I think it's reasonable to expect them to respect my rights also. It's not unusual to see HOA's presume that the satellite antenna size limit of 1 Meter extends to over-the-air television antennas, they're wrong, the FCC specifically describes OTA TV antennas in the same context, without a size limit... I presume this is because the FCC understands that larger dimensions are required when designing an antenna in the VHF and UHF bands as compared to the Multi-Gigahertz band in which satellite services operate.

Then, if you're willing to risk spending money on an antenna that may not be up to the task, the smaller version of the Y10713 is a Y5713. My inclination is to go with the Y10713 (or the Winegard version).

Last edited by GroundUrMast; 6-Feb-2013 at 10:15 PM. Reason: extending the thought
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Old 6-Feb-2013, 9:41 PM   #6
ADTech
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here's a couple of tips:

1. Loose the amplifier.
2. Run by Radio Shack and pick up a 15-0024 FM filter. Keep your receipt, just in case. Install install the filter in your down lead.
3. Aim your antenna at La Jolla and see what happens. Try different heights moving the antenna up and down a foot at a time.

If that doesn't pan out, you might need a San Diego Special: A high VHF antenna pointed at La Jolla and a separate bidirectional UHF antenna to catch both Tijuana and San Miguel signals at the same time. Before I went that route, though, I suggest a ClearStream 5 aimed at that direction. You'd likely be successful with that one antenna.
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Last edited by ADTech; 6-Feb-2013 at 9:48 PM.
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Old 7-Feb-2013, 1:49 AM   #7
No static at all
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADTech View Post
here's a couple of tips:

1. Loose the amplifier.
2. Run by Radio Shack and pick up a 15-0024 FM filter. Keep your receipt, just in case. Install install the filter in your down lead.
3. Aim your antenna at La Jolla and see what happens. Try different heights moving the antenna up and down a foot at a time.
Excellent suggestions for a next diagnosis step!!

You simply CANNOT use any preamp in your situation. The weak VHF stations can easily be trampled by the strong 2nd harmonics of 2, maybe even 3 local FM signals. Trying the FM filter is a good idea also. You may even need something stronger, but this is an easy way to test with something available locally.

If amplification is truly needed, I recommend the Channel Master 3414 which is extremely tolerant of blistering VHF & UHF signals & will deliver an even, robust signal up to 4 splits with minimal dynamic range compression.
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Old 12-Feb-2013, 8:34 PM   #8
ranchersd
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GroundUrMast,

I expect to the install the antenna in the next few days. I will mount the mast to my stucco chimney. I have read much already about grounding the mast and coax without a clear vision of how solve my mast grounding issue. My challenge is that my antenna installation point is on the opposite corner of the house as my electrical box (which is where I suspect the electrical service ground is).

I have found the list of grounding possibilities:
1. the building or structure ground electrode system as cover by 250.50
2. The grounded interior metal water pipe system within 5 feet of point of entrance to building
3.the power service accessible means external to the building
4.the metalic power service raceway
5.the service entrance encolsure
or
6.the grounding electrode conductor or the ground conductor metal enclosures.

Of the above list, only #s 1 and 6 are options but I would have to navigate half of the perimeter of my house to do so. Is there an option not listed above that I could consider? Could you please direct me to some recommended reading for the purposes of antenna mast grounding?
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Old 19-Feb-2013, 7:25 PM   #9
ranchersd
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Success! Thanks to all that replied.

I completed my OTA project this weekend. I decided try for a single antenna solution and bought the Clear Stream 5. It is aimed at the weaker VHF channels in my market. All of the other channels I desired are coming in clear and strong and so are those weaker VHF stations. Woohoo. The antenna is mounted to my chimney and is approximately 30' in height. I sunk an eight foot grounding rod near the corner of the house. The mast and the coax grounding block are connected to the rod. Additionally, I have the grounding rod bonded to the house ground by way of ground connection for my Air Conditioning compressor conveniently located in the same corner of the house. Goodbye cable tv. Thanks again for all of the help.
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Old 20-Feb-2013, 4:34 AM   #10
GroundUrMast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ranchersd View Post
... I have read much already about grounding the mast and coax without a clear vision of how solve my mast grounding issue. My challenge is that my antenna installation point is on the opposite corner of the house as my electrical box (which is where I suspect the electrical service ground is).

I have found the list of grounding possibilities:
1. the building or structure ground electrode system as cover by 250.50
2. The grounded interior metal water pipe system within 5 feet of point of entrance to building
3.the power service accessible means external to the building
4.the metalic power service raceway
5.the service entrance encolsure
or
6.the grounding electrode conductor or the ground conductor metal enclosures.

Of the above list, only #s 1 and 6 are options but I would have to navigate half of the perimeter of my house to do so. Is there an option not listed above that I could consider? Could you please direct me to some recommended reading for the purposes of antenna mast grounding?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ranchersd View Post
... The antenna is mounted to my chimney and is approximately 30' in height. I sunk an eight foot grounding rod near the corner of the house. The mast and the coax grounding block are connected to the rod. Additionally, I have the grounding rod bonded to the house ground by way of ground connection for my Air Conditioning compressor ...
Your grounding will provide protection from static buildup... But...

Best practice would be to bond the new ground rod to the electrical service ground with a #6 AWG or larger diameter copper conductor - directly, rather than via a branch circuit ground conductor. Consider the consequence of a large fault current flowing from the antenna system, to the power ground via the branch circuit conductor... when current flows, there is voltage drop... what would the difference in voltage at the compressor unit frame/chassis do to the control electronics in your HVAC system? Current will flow in any and all conductors when a difference in voltage exists between each end of the conductors. Again, best practice is to avoid connections that invite fault current to flow through equipment and wiring that is not designed for or, intended to carry such current.

The HVAC system, including the compressor unit frame is not by definition, any of the items in your list. Items 3, 4 & 5 are the metallic mast/conduit into and out of the electrical service meter base and the service panel or a grounding connector attached directly to those parts.

http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=901
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