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Old 26-Sep-2012, 10:08 PM   #1
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HOA made me take down my antenna

Eight weeks ago, I came here to get help to receive as many Las Vegas VHF stations as I could. I was most interested in channel 3 (for Antenna TV on 3.3 -real 2) and 13. Here is my TV Fool plot.

Several members replied to my post, and "thank you" to those that did. After much thought and consideration, I ordered the Winegard model HD5030 since I was only interested in VHF. I already get the 5 major networks (CBS, NBC, ABC, Fox, PBS) plus 5 other stations from Phoenix (2 in analog) via low power "translators" with my 4 bay antenna.

About two weeks ago I put up the HD5030, and to make a long story short, I was able to get only two stations, channel CBS 8 (real 7) and ABC 13. Fox channel 5 (real 9) tries to come in, but I cannot get a lock on it. Nothing on channel 3 (real 2), and zippo for channel 6, even though they both read as stronger signals at my location. The good news was that I could still get reception on my two Vegas stations with the antenna being 1 foot above the roof. Great. This should make the neighbors happy and it would also allow me to "time shift" on two networks, since Las Vegas is in a different time zone from Arizona. Another plus was that I could see different sporting events (NFL, NBA, etc.) because Phoenix and Vegas are in two different sports markets.

Well yesterday I got a letter from my HOA saying that a large antenna to get stations outside of Mohave County is not permitted. I looked it up here,
and it sure enough, I found this:
Q: I want a conventional "stick" antenna to receive a distant over-the air television signal. Does the rule apply to me?
A: No. The rule does not apply to television antennas used to receive a distant signal.

So when the weather cools off a little more, I will try to put it in my attic. If anyone else has any other suggestions, I would appreciate it.

I'll let you know how it works out as soon as I can.
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Old 26-Sep-2012, 10:46 PM   #2
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I'm not a lawyer and I don't play one on TV... I'm not even a non-paid attorney spokesman.

That said, I don't believe 'distant over-the-air television signal' applies to signals from stations that are intended to serve your community.

Some folks enjoy the hobby of DX reception, were they intentionally try to receive signals from stations that do not expect to serve the area that the hobbyist is located. So... if your antenna is intended for reception of 'local' signals, any reception of distant signals is 'unexpected' and 'un-inteneded'... right?

I would consider lawyer-ing up.
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Old 27-Sep-2012, 12:49 AM   #3
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If you file a petition with the FCC you would be able to leave it up until a decision was made, but I think you would lose. The burden of proof, however, is on the HOA.

Even if you could leave it up, the problem is most likely that fact that the VHF noise floor is higher than on UHF; and higher on VHF-low than on VHF-hi. This means that a stronger signal is needed to give you sufficient SNR (>16 dB) above the noise for the digital signal to decode. If you have ever listened to a digital TV signal, it sounds like random noise.

GroundUrMast made an interesting post about VHF noise:

In it he gives a link to a powerpoint presentation:
on this thread:
Low VHF reception (2 - 6) Experience & Opinions

I have made some measurements of the noise floor at my location using a signal level meter (SLM) while developing a method to hunt for channels missed during a channel scan:
The noise floor measured about -10 dBmV on VHF-lo and about -20 to -25 dBmV on VHF-hi, which doesn't leave quite enough margin for reliable reception of CH11. I need to improve my VHF-hi antenna.

In terms of dBm, those noise floor figures would be about -59 dBm and -69 to -74 dBm respectivly, which is a lot stronger than your -87.1 dBm CH2 signal.

But, it certainly is worth a test in the attic as long as you have the antenna.

The KSNV profile doesn't look too promising, see attachment.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg KSNVnewheart722.JPG (55.2 KB, 467 views)
If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
Lord Kelvin, 1883

Last edited by rabbit73; 27-Sep-2012 at 1:16 AM.
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Old 27-Sep-2012, 1:16 AM   #4
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Per the FCC web site, & specifically,, Kingman, AZ is with in the Service Contour of KLAS. That seems to support the assertion that KLAS is 'local'.

I'd at least inquire with an attorney before surrendering.
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Old 27-Sep-2012, 7:30 PM   #5
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Thank you for the info and the very interesting links GroundRfMast and Rabbit73. So let me update you on my thoughts earlier this week.

Since I cannot get channel 2, I decided that it is simply not worth the fight at this time. Yesterday I talked to a friend of mine who lives on the other side of Kingman and recently dropped satellite. He is limited to just a few channels with his XG-91 UHF antenna and cannot get a CBS station. I told him my of my success with my antenna getting KLAS CBS 8.
He said that if he can get CBS with the HD5030, he would buy it from me. I agreed to that.
Here is his radar plot.

Earlier this month, I helped my friend find a good location and then install the XG91 antenna. With me raising, lowering, and aiming the antenna and him holding the TV, the two of us tried but could not get any signal from any of the stations in the true 133 direction. That includes channel 30, what should be his strongest channel. We used three different antennas (his XG-91, my old CM 4221, and a home made GH) in many different locations around his home looking for a hotspot. Now we will do it again with the HD-5030.

Here is the handheld TV I use. It has a coaxal input for the antenna and is ideal for finding hotspots. So this weekend we will see what VHF stations we can get at his location.

Thanks again for the help. Both of you had excellent suggestions with counter arguments I haven't thought of. Lets say I haven't given up yet.
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Old 28-Sep-2012, 4:55 AM   #6
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Aim the HD5030 at about 270 degree magnetic compass direction for reception of K06PG-D Digital channel 6 , PBS. And KLAS CBS and ME-Tv. And ABC.

Aim the XG91 at about 270 degree magnetic compass direction.

Here is how to aim antennas ,

Connect the 2 antennas together with a UVSJ = UHF/VHF Separator/Joiner.

Buy the UVSJ buy typing the letters , uvsj , in the , search box.

The Tv Must Scan for the Broadcast Tv Channels , sometimes named the 'Air Channels' or 'Antenna Channels' in the Tv setup menu because the Tv transmissions travel through the air from the transmitting antenna to the receiving antenna.

DO NOT channel scan for cable tv channels.

As always , trees and tree leaves do a real fine job of reducing or blocking Tv reception and so do buildings and other obstructions.

It is best to locate the antennas at a location that has the least amount to no amount of obstructions of any type or kind in the direction of reception.

Last edited by teleview; 30-Sep-2012 at 12:37 AM.
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Old 28-Sep-2012, 5:17 AM   #7
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The HD5030 is designed to receive VHF low band channels 2 thru 6 and VHF high band channels 7 thru 13.

The XG91 is designed to receive UHF channels 14 thru 51.

The UVSJ combines the HD5030 and XG91 to one coax down lead to the Tv.

Last edited by teleview; 30-Sep-2012 at 12:38 AM.
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Old 29-Sep-2012, 8:33 AM   #8
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A call to the engineering departments of these stations confirms that the Tv transmissions are Analog transmissions and are transmitting.

Aim the XG91 at 270 degree magnetic compass direction.

KNTL-LP UHF channel 47 , Univision.

K22DR UHF channel 22 , CBS.

K18CB UHF channel 18 , MyNetwork

And , Fox , ABC , are also received at 270/269 degree magnetic compass direction.

And PBS using the HD5030 antenna.


So that leaves Digital channel NBC UHF channel 50 , at 122 degree magnetic compass direction.

I recommend install a Separate UHF antenna , a Channel Master 4228HD antenna aimed at about 122 degree magnetic compass direction.

Install a Remote control A/B antenna switch , , #32-4425 , or , , #15-1968 .

To change antennas , west group of Tv stations and south east group Tv stations.

Last edited by teleview; 30-Sep-2012 at 12:40 AM.
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