Noob needs help, please.

cabt · 5-Oct-2011, 3:52 PM

Hello all, I live in Centerport, NY (ZIP 11721) and recently installed a Winegard HD7697 along with an AP8700 preamp, in my attic. I get fantastic signal and clarity for ABC, CBS, and NBC (along with a bunch of other local public and tertiary channels), however, I get no signal for FOX, not even a blocky mess....just a blank screen.

Per the attached chart that TV Fool generated:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...60b56761271da1

It would appear that there is no reason why I am not getting FOX, no?

The antenna is pointed at 266 (degrees magnetic judged off my Iphone compass). The line runs roughly 80 feet down quad shielded RG6 with the waterproof connectors and the preamp power feed is no more than 12 feet from the preamp (the preamp is maybe 10 inches from the antenna connection.

The line goes directly into my Pioneer 5020 display.

Any help in getting me FOX would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Clayton

MisterMe · 5-Oct-2011, 5:06 PM

Please repeat your radar plot with your exact address. Your address will not appear on the plot, but the word "exact" will.

GroundUrMast · 5-Oct-2011, 5:41 PM

An accurate TVFR would help confirm, but...

The AP8700 should be expected to overload given the gain of the antenna and the number of powerful signals.

The AP8700 is advertised to handle up to up to 93000 uV of UHF input, 110000 uV of UHF. http://www.winegarddirect.com/viewit...00%29&p=AP8700

The UHF gain of the HD7697P is advertised at about 12 dBd. http://www.winegarddirect.com/viewit...P%29&p=HD7697P

Without considering all the signals or any FM, you are exceeding the input rating of the 8700.

Unless you are going after distant weak signals, I don't see a need for any amplifier. If you have a real need for an amplifier, you have not given enough information to understand what antenna, amplifier combination would be appropriate.

My recommendation is to remove both the mast head amplifier unit and the power insertion block. That antenna should have no problem delivering enough power to drive a passive 8-way splitter and over 100' of coax.

cabt · 5-Oct-2011, 6:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GroundUrMast

An accurate TVFR would help confirm, but...

The AP8700 should be expected to overload given the gain of the antenna and the number of powerful signals.

The AP8700 is advertised to handle up to up to 93000 uV of UHF input, 110000 uV of UHF. http://www.winegarddirect.com/viewit...00%29&p=AP8700

The UHF gain of the HD7697P is advertised at about 12 dBd. http://www.winegarddirect.com/viewit...P%29&p=HD7697P

Without considering all the signals or any FM, you are exceeding the input rating of the 8700.

Unless you are going after distant weak signals, I don't see a need for any amplifier. If you have a real need for an amplifier, you have not given enough information to understand what antenna, amplifier combination would be appropriate.

My recommendation is to remove both the mast head amplifier unit and the power insertion block. That antenna should have no problem delivering enough power to drive a passive 8-way splitter and over 100' of coax.

I don't know what the overload comment means...sorry. Is it to much for what I have? When I first put the antenna up, without the preamp, I only got a few spanish stations. Once I put the preamp on I pulled in about 30+ stations, including the main ones (NBC, CBS, PIX, ABC) from New York City, which is what I want.

Sorry if I am not being helpful, but this is all very new to me. The exact plot is here:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...60b5e8498f9a06

Thanks again!

John Candle · 6-Oct-2011, 5:52 PM

Do a test , get a Loooooooong length of plain RG-6 with connectors and connect it directly to the antenna , No amplifier , No preamplifer , No splitters , No in line couplers , Run the RG-6 through an open door of the house , Direct to the tv. What is the reception like now??

GroundUrMast · 6-Oct-2011, 6:45 PM

The difference between your first TV Fool report and the latest is quite significant.

The first report showed strong signal levels for more than two dozen stations. Your updated TVFR shows most of those signals weaker, blocked by terrain. I'm still not convinced you should need an amplifier. Your original description mentions only one tuner connected... so there should be no splitters. The Winegard HD7697P should be able to receive more than enough signal to power one or to sets with no problem.

(An overloaded amplifier is one that has more signal power fed into it than it can handle. The 8700 is designed for use in locations where the combined power of all the signals is moderate to weak. There are amplifiers designed to handle stronger signals but you are describing a situation where no amplifier should be needed. Rather than dwell on the amplifier, let's work toward understanding why a perfectly capable antenna was not able to produce a long list of usable signals to begin with.)

A big unknown is the effect of the attic construction. Some attics are quite acceptable locations for an antenna installation... but some attics block, reflect or interfere with TV signals to the point that reliable reception isn't possible. In some cases, the problem affects just one or a few channels.

JC's suggestion to run a 'test' coax directly from the antenna to the TV is the most logical next step. If reception improves, it suggests a problem with the original coax and/or the preamp.

I would suggest as a second test (if needed), test the antenna outside, with a clear view to the west, at or above the height it is now. Use no amplifier, just the single test coax. (Quad-shield won't hurt but it won't provide any benefit either.)

Sometimes it's easy to confuse the front and rear of an antenna. Your description of the symptoms makes me wonder if your antenna is aimed east rather than west. That could explain why you saw so few stations before adding the amplifier. Just to be sure, here is a link regarding aiming antennas of various types: www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html The closest match to your antenna is the 'all band UHF-VHF-FM'.

cabt · 6-Oct-2011, 6:54 PM

Thanks...to clarify...a straight coax run from the antenna to the tuner provides only spanish channels...the preamp gives me 30 more channels (abc, cbs, nbc, etc) but no fox. My attic is not insulated and it is pointing directly through the side of the house (eg. not blocked by any roof shingles). If this helps, please let me know. As I just blew out my back, I am hesitant to deal with taking her down and putting her on the roof for some time.

John Candle · 6-Oct-2011, 9:01 PM

Plain RG-6 is not quad shield. Plain RG-6 is 2 shield coax , the foil shied and shied wires. I suggest , Known to be good RG-6

cabt · 6-Oct-2011, 9:10 PM

Didn't see that part. So that I can learn, what benefit will plain rg6 provide over quad? I would think that quad would provide better shielding and therefor stronger signal bu apparenlt not?

John Candle · 6-Oct-2011, 9:46 PM

Quad shield is better then 2 shield coax . However for the 'test' , 2 shield cost less then quad shield. What I am recommending for the 'test' is get the problems that can develop with , amplifiers , splitters , couplers , coax , and etc. as close to zero problems as possible. Buy having the hook up like this , #1 antenna #2 simple plain coax , #3 connected direct to the tv. Also have a look at the the connections of the 75 ohm to 300 ohm adapter that connect the coax to the antenna.

GroundUrMast · 6-Oct-2011, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cabt

... what benefit will plain rg6 provide over quad? ...

Cost.

Quad shield is appropriate for satellite systems. Satellite systems convert the signal received at the dish to an intermediate frequency range. The link from the LNB at the dish, to the receiver, is a closed system that uses frequencies also in use by terrestrial services. There needs to be a great deal of shielding protection to keep the terrestrial services and satellite system from interfering with one another. A little bit of land based point-to-point microwave signal leaking into a satellite LNB-Receiver link would interfere with reliable reception of the satellite signal.

Over the air reception uses an open system, where the 'opening' is the antenna. The minute amount of signal that may leak through two layers of shielding versus four, is not relevant given that the antenna's object and purpose is to get signal coupled into the coax from the air. Over the air TV uses frequencies assigned exclusively to that service, to minimize interference.

The loss per foot is virtually identical between RG-6 and RG-6Q.

If the price is cheaper for quad... use it.

No static at all · 7-Oct-2011, 2:02 AM

Ok, I'm up to speed on what plane coax is good for now. Now if I only knew what foil sheid has to do with poor reception? I'm so confused????

John Candle · 7-Oct-2011, 6:53 AM

When the ends of the coax is cut/shaped so that the connectors can be put on , the cutting knife gets dull , a dull knife does not cut cleanly and pushes the shields of the coax in toward the center wire of the coax. If the foil shield or shield wires come into contact with the center wire then the signal will be reduced or shorted out completly. Quad shield has more layers of shielding and those layers of shielding are more easy pushed in toward the center wire when the ends of the coax are cut and shaped to put the connectors on the ends of the coax. The point here is to get the problems that can happen with getting the signal from point A to point B , to as close to zero as possible , so as to prove that the tv signals are being received by the antenna and transfered to the tv via the coax and received by the tv. For some reason or reasons people resist this simple 'test' of getting the signal from point A to point B. This simple test is suggested time after time here at tvfool and the more reasons for doing it and the explanation is given for doing it the more the person digs in the heals to not do it.

John Candle · 7-Oct-2011, 8:33 AM

I have tried no explaination of , don't ask questions , just do it. To page after page of explaination and facts and diagrams. And all in between , and more often then not the person digs in the heals deeper and deeper to not do this simple test.

cabt · 7-Oct-2011, 2:03 PM

Ok. Although I have ensured that the straight run (currently quad) is free of any stripping contaminents and that the fittings are proper and secure, I will try standard coax this weekend (unless someone tells me its a waste of time, not that I am trying to dig my heels in

). And, although I am 99.9% sure that antenna is pointed in the right direction, I will spin her around 180 degrees to check.

GroundUrMast · 7-Oct-2011, 5:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cabt

Thanks...to clarify...a straight coax run from the antenna to the tuner provides only spanish channels...the preamp gives me 30 more channels (abc, cbs, nbc, etc) but no fox. My attic is not insulated and it is pointing directly through the side of the house (eg. not blocked by any roof shingles). If this helps, please let me know. As I just blew out my back, I am hesitant to deal with taking her down and putting her on the roof for some time.

Sorry to hear about your back.

Your description of the installation is promising. I generally expect 'shooting' through wood siding to be more successful than wet or snow covered shingles. Is there room to move the antenna inside the attic, in search of a 'sweet spot'?

Does the current mounting location 'look' or point into the neighbors house?

cabt · 7-Oct-2011, 6:11 PM

Thank you. The antenna does currently point straight through the wood peak of my roof and not the shingles, however, if you were to draw a straight line out of the antenna it would fit my neightbors house or the hill behind it. Nothing I can do about that. It is very hilly were I am as I live by the water on the north shore of long island and the ground rises and then slopes down fairly abruptly to the water were I live.

GroundUrMast · 7-Oct-2011, 8:53 PM

Until your back and weather permit, it sounds as if your left with the basic trouble shooting steps.

The obstructions of your neighbors house and nearby terrain argue for roof top mounting...

cabt · 7-Oct-2011, 9:20 PM

Was hoping to avoid that....although I bought the gear to mount her to my chimney, getting up there is a bit scary. And, when up there...it sill still be pointed at the first floor of my neighbors house.

John Candle · 8-Oct-2011, 3:24 PM

The antenna will be pointed into the first floor of your neighbors house!!?? So your house is on a real steep hill or mountain?? Even so there are 2 groups of tv stations , to the north east and west.