Frustrated cord cutter here
 

Last year I decided to cut the cord and cancel my DirecTV service when the contract expired in November.
I started searching for options that would work for me. I definitely wanted a DVR so I settled on a 4-tuner TabloTV, which I love.

I began with an indoor Mohu Leaf antenna and it worked OK but I figured a roof-mounted antenna would give me a more reliable signal. So I bought a Winegard FreeVision FV-30BB and got it up on my roof about a month ago.
I used the Tablo iPhone app to to do channel scans and got the antenna positioned pretty well. I was getting all the major networks, plus a few others, so I was happy. Picture looked amazing.

Starting a couple of weeks ago I began experiencing occasional momentary pixelation but nothing too bad.

But, last night I was completely unable to watch the local ABC or CW stations, which are both owned by the same station here. The signal went from 5 green dots (excellent) to 1 red dot (terrible) in the Tablo app. I know there are many factors that can affect signal but this seems a bit extreme to me, right?

I sent an e-mail to the station engineer this morning to ask if they are having a problem but I haven't gotten a response yet.

By the way, here is my TVFool report:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...2c15ef25be2d0f

I'm having the problem with 40.1 and 40.2 (I don't know why 40.2 doesn't show up on the report).


I estimate my antenna is about 15 feet off of the ground.
Would a signal booster help me? Or would it hurt?

Any thoughts?

The charts only include stations. Secondary, or "sub-channels", are not separate stations, their data is part of the main station's signal.

KHBS transmits from Poteau Mountain which is in the opposite direction from most of the rest of the stations' transmitters which are sprinkled along the mountain pass along I-49 on the way towards Fayetteville.

That said, there are multiple possibilities:

1. Water ingress into a coaxial cable.
2. Defective matching transformer.
3. Localized electrical interference.
4. An odd reflection off something nearby that that is coming in stronger than the direct signal and is interfering with it (multi-path).
5. Tuner defect (try a different one, perhaps the one built into your TV set).

What direction is the "front" of your antenna facing? The front has the matching transformer connections, the back has the mast clamp.

The antenna has only been up on the roof for one month. I can try scanning the channels with a TV later today.

The front of the antenna is pointed in a northern direction right now.


I'm just confused how it go from full-strength signal to nearly no signal so quickly.


**edit** the antenna direction. I was wrong.

Something in your system or environment has changed without your realizing it.

Or the station is having trouble. Back in December another local station went off (back when I was using the indoor antenna) and I contacted them. The engineer said they had been hit with a power surge and something blew.

We did have some ice and snow Sunday night and some rain last night.
When my friend and I installed the antenna we used the existing coax cable that the DirecTV installer ran. However, we decided to raise the antenna up a couple of feet so we had to connect a short extension to the coax up on the roof. I wonder if that could be the problem.

Sadly, I don't feel very comfortable on the ladder by myself so I will have to wait until I can get some help to check it out.

Often, the least expensive and most reliable test of existing cable is to buy a new cable with factory installed connectors... Substitute the known good cable in place of the suspect cable.

If any moisture gets into the coax, you'll not be able to dry it out quickly enough to prevent permanent damage due to corrosion and contamination of the inner insulating material.

Connections that are exposed to the elements need to be protected. I have found that electrical tape by itself is never adequate. Mastic type product such as Coax-Seal® and Scotch® 2228 tape are designed to form a permanent water proof seal in applications like this. I apply a layer of electrical tape over the sealing tape only for protecting the mastic from dirt and UV.

The station engineer replied and they are not having any problems.

I ran another channel scan right before lunch and now both stations are showing a perfect signal strength. I tuned them in and everything looks great.

So now I'm more confused.

Intermittent reception problems can be frustrating.

Pay attention to the weather. If it's windy, moving tree limbs often cause signal strength to fluctuate rapidly, causing the tuner to loose it's lock on the signal due to it's need to adjust to the new conditions. If this is the cause of your trouble, moving the antenna to a location that has less trees to contend with is indicated.

If the weather has been wet a day or two earlier, moisture in the coax is a possibility. A sudden drop in outdoor temperature can also cause moisture to condense inside the coax.

Is one or more appliances or other electrically powered devise causing interference? Sometimes you have to turn off all the power in the building except for the TV, then turn things back on one step at a time to isolate and identify the problem causing devise(s). CFL and LED bulbs, phone chargers and nearly any other electrical devise can cause interference.

Patience and persistence is often tested to it's limits...

I wanted to post an update. Over the weekend I discovered that the threaded stud on the back of my Tablo had come loose and just spun freely when I tried to disconnect the coax from it. At this point I was getting zero signal from the antenna. I contacted Tablo and they are send me a warranty replacement.

I connected the antenna directly to my TV and everything seemed so much better so I began to think this connector had been loose for a while and maybe it was causing my problems.

Last night I was watching my local ABC channel, the one I had all the signal problems with. I watched it for about 90 minutes with barely any glitches and then, I started having frequent "loss of signal" errors on my TV. I noticed that every time this happened I heard an airplane flying overhead loudly. We have an Air Guard base in my my city and they are always flying C-130s around for training. It was dark but I think this was the plane that was flying around last night.

Is that possible that the plane was causing momentary signal loss? It was almost like clockwork...I would start to see the picture break up, then the screen went black with the signal loss error and then I heard the plane go over. Then, as the plane's sound began to fade, the picture came right back on.

Yes. It's called "aircraft-induced multi-path" or "airplane flutter". Signals are bouncing off the aircraft and are arriving at your antenna in such a fashion that they are interfering with reception of your primary signal.

Comprehensive engineering example: http://2003.iccas.org/Full_Paper/air...2003_5(19).pdf

On analog systems, such signal impairment would usually cause either ghosting or picture rolling, depending on the severity of the impairment. On digital systems, once the impairment crosses the threshold of viewabilty, reception failure, characterized by anything from mild pixelization/audio blips to a complete loss of audio and video, will occur.

Four and 8-bay UHF antennas seem to work about the best since they have a narrow vertical beamwidth. Much depends on the elevation angle of the aircraft (relative to your location) as to whether or not the reflected signals can be sufficiently nulled.

Since I was born in the 1950's, interference from airplanes had been a way of life. But with analog tv signals, you'd see ghosting on the screen. With the recent changeover to digital signals, you don't get ghosting - you get some pixelation at best, but usually a full drop-out with black screen, as the same signal coming from different directions, and arriving at slightly different times, is enough to confuse the tv tuner, or cancel enough of the signal to where the tuner can't maintain a lock.

The antenna, IMO at least, is a bit light for your TV Fool report. An antenna system with a bit narrower beam height, vertically stacked (like the DB4e) might help prevent that.

Edit: Too slow, and too incomplete. ;^)

Thanks for getting back to us with your observation/report. It's good to be reminded that aircraft and moving vehicle induced multipath is a problem to be considered.

Is that particular brand and model your best recommendation or would another vertically stacked model work as well (such as the Channel Master CM-4221HD)?

I recommended it both as an example of the type (4-bay 'bowtie' in a vertical array), and because it's probably the best example of that type, since it's designed for channels 14-51 rather than 14-69 (52-69 are no longer used for tv), so the gain is likely to be slightly higher overall. And because I have that one and it works well for me, though that's hardly enough to make a buying decision on. And you can get support from the manufacturer, including here.

I've ordered the DB4e. Hopefully I'll be installing it Saturday.

Any thoughts on the best direction for me to point it based on my report?

Start by aiming it at 9 degrees on a compass (you can get one for about $5 at WalMart or any sports store). Then do a scan on your tv (making sure your scanning for either "OTA" or "Antenna"). Make a list of what you get and don't get. If that doesn't get you everything you want move the antenna a little bit towards the direction of the station you want but don't get. Be patient. You may need to make several adjustments, and even move the antenna up and down on the pole. [Come to think of it, I'd try it in several different places on the roof before mounting it, if you don't have only one place to put it.]

Well I got the DB4e installed yesterday and it was more difficult than the Winegard install.
I couldn't find a position where I got the exact same stations as I had gotten with the Winegard. Maybe the DB4e is more "directional" than the Winegard?

I was using my iPhone and the Tablo app and found a position where I got excellent signal on all the major networks. I started streaming each station to my phone to make sure it looked good then we locked it down.

Unfortunately last night, watching TV, on the CBS and FOX stations I was experiencing periodic picture break-ups. I'd say about every 10 minutes or so the picture would breakup, sometimes bad enough that I was missing a word or two.

So I suppose I will have to climb back up there and do some tweaking. I'll wait a day or so just to make sure it wasn't atmospheric last night or something.

We did use Coaxseal on the one joint up there this time.

I would continue to explore alternate antenna location, height and aim options.

If water has gotten into a section of coax, replace it. Sealing wet cable won't restore it to a reliable state.

I moved the antenna over the weekend but I'm still having intermittent problems on the CBS, NBC and FOX stations. This stuff is just driving me crazy! When I was up on the roof I did a channel scan with my phone (via the TabloTV) and all the major networks showed excellent signal. Now NBC/FOX show weaker signal.

I don't think any moisture got into the cable because the one joint exposed had a rubber gasket thing over it.

I don't really have an easy to move the antenna on the roof or raise it.

Would an amplifier help reduce the picture breakups?

Nobody ever responded to my question about the amplifier. I have tried adjusting the antenna but I'm still with most of the stations occasionally breaking up.

I think either this antenna (DB4e) might not have been ideal for my location.
My next step will be to try and raise the height, I guess. Currently in is about 3 feet off of my roof.

If you send me your precise coordinates of your rooftop by private message, I'll look closely at your situation and see if I can do a "virtual" house call.

As for an amplifier, it depends on the reason for the reception problems you're seeing as to whether an amp will help things or make them worse. Let's dig a bit deeper first.

How can I get those precise coordinates of my rooftop? I assume I need to climb back up there again but I looked in my GPS apps and I don't see a way to get the actual coordinates.

Please proceed as follows: Go to https://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=90

Enter your full address (street address, city, state) and click on the "Map This" button. You will get a Google map with its guess as to your location.
Drag and drop the red balloon to your approximate location, click on "Satellite" to switch to a combined map/satellite view, then fine tune the location by adjusting the balloon's location on the map onto your rooftop.
A VERY precise location is best for our analysis.

Under the lower left of the map will be a set of numbers similar to 36.410621,-92.239341 (That’s our office!)

Those are your GPS coordinates and are what is needed to do an accurate assessment.

If the coordinates provided accurately depict the antenna's current location, I see three things of concern:

1. The antenna is below your neighbor's house in the direction of Poteau Mtn. You're already in a topographical hole for that signal, so a further impairment of the signal being blocked by his roof is all it would take to render that station unreliable, especially when trying to receive it from the back of the DB4e. My recommendation is to move the antenna up to the western peak of your roof and use a longer mast (10') with a gable mount. I don't know if you'd already tried that location or not, but it's as good as you're going to get.

2. Your signal path to the north northeast has a number of trees right in the signal path. I have no expectation of reliable reception of UHF stations when trees are involved. Either it will work or it will be unreliable.

3. Your local PBS station operates on VHF channel 9. If its reception is a concern, then adding a VHF-1 VHF Retrofit Kit would be expected to help out.

I do not see a need for a preamplifier as it likely will have little effect.

Wow, thanks for the info.
FYI the DB4e is currently pointed almost directly at Poteau Mountain, based on the lines I see on the map. The satellite image is out of date. The large tree in my back yard is no longer there. I don't know if that makes any difference.

Unfortunately mounting the antenna on the other side of my house is beyond my ability. I'm not very "handy". But I may be able to get friends or brothers to help me. I wouldn't mind paying someone to do it but I don't know who to call.

Before I decided to buy the DB4e I actually contacted a local company to see about professionally installing an antenna. At the time I thought the price was too high so I thanked him but declined.

After I started having reception problems I thought maybe it would be worth it so I sent him another message through Angie's List but he never responded. I sent another and no reply. I tried calling and got a receptionist and left a message and he never called me back. So I bought the DB4e.

It's the trees across the street that are in the direction of the airport that I'm looking at as a concern.

Some days I get frustrated enough to consider going back to cable. Tonight I watched shows on ABC and CW, the stations broadcast from Poteau Mountain, and they were perfect. Then I tried to watch CBS and it's completely unwatchable. It was fine Sunday night.

I never expected perfection but......

The antenna can only catch whatever signals get to it. If the signals go through a shredder on their path to the antenna, your reception is going to get shredded. It really is that simple. Not every street is capable of reliable reception due to circumstances out of their control.

I wouldn't give up yet. For the price of a few months of cable you can get the antenna moved to a better, maybe higher location.

I understand that. I'm just venting I guess.

It just blows my mind that it can be great for a while, then not so great, then terrible, then ok again.

I know you said that something must have changed if the reception changes so drastically but I don't know what it could be.



Rickbb, you're right about that. I really don't want to go back to paying for TV. Luckily I can watch the CBS show I missed tonight on my computer or on my TV using PlayOn.

Oh, I need to try to find an installer that can do a good job. I tried AngiesList but only found the one that never called me back. Maybe I can just try calling some of the satellite installers.

That is one of the defining characteristics of digital reception. It's either perfect or it isn't; there's no (sometimes) graceful degradation that was part of analog reception. If you're already at the edge of the digital cliff, it doesn't take much of a disruption to kick you over the edge.

I'll say it again: If there are trees in front of the antenna, I have NO expectation of reliable reception of UHF signals. I've worked with thousands of customers (and my own setup) and that lesson has been indelibly ingrained into my advice.

I'm sure you're right. It's likely that as the leaves had filled out in the trees that may be why things are getting worse.

At this point my first step, I think, is going to be raising the antenna. Possibly moving it to the west side of the house but that will require running new coax.

So maybe I will try raising it to about 10 feet above the roof and see how that works. Of course, I don't know when I'll be able to do that but I'll report back.

I wouldn't hold out any hope on the Sat installers. Some of them are knowledgeable and professional who may have the skill and background in OTA to understand what your issue is.

Most are not, just low wage sub-contractors who are taught the very basics of installing a dish.

If you can get up on the roof and using your TVFool plot and a simple compass and find a likely good place to get around the trees you can tell the installer to put it there.

But before you start drilling holes and putting in bolts, try the reception while someone holds the antenna turns it a bit, even moving it left and right or up and down a few feet this way or that can improve, (or make worse), the signal quality.

Well, the thing is, Sunday I was having the same problem with CBS so I climbed up on the roof to try and adjust it. I wasn't able to get a good direction. I had my phone up there and using the TabloTV I could to a channel scan and actually watch the channels to see how they look.

After about 45 minutes up there I ended up pointing it just slightly off where it had been before. I was still getting occasional picture glitches but it wasn't too bad. But last night it was terrible on CBS.

I am thinking the DB4e might be a pretty directional antenna and 3 of the networks I want come from the northeast and 2 of them come from the southwest.

Right now the antenna is mounted using my old satellite dish mast with a 2 foot piece of pipe added for a little height. I'm looking at maybe buying (2) of these and getting up around 10 feet above the roof.

Yes, the reflector on it makes if a very directional antenna.

If the stations you want are mostly 180 degrees away from each other you may be able to remove the reflector to get stations from the back and front of the antenna.

ADTech is a rep for the company that makes the DB4e and can add info for that.

Edit; Generally going higher helps with getting over trees, houses, etc. But not always, signals from the tower can be reflected, (bounce), off of roofs, walls the ground etc. So sometimes lower works better. Fine tuning the antenna location and aiming can be hit or miss depending on local conditions.

I fiddled around with mine for weeks before I finally went up on the roof with a small TV and a short coax cable. Still took me an hour to get it where I wanted it. But that was before the trees leafed out, now I have to move it again.

Interesting, so higher isn't always better? When I mounted the first antenna on the roof it was a very small one, but it was about 2 feet lower than the DB4e (just at the top of the dish mast) and at first it seemed to work very well. I posted my original message here when it started to give me problems back in February (before any leaves had come in). I was having the same problem as now except it was the ABC & CW networks, both broadcast from the same tower locations. ADTech suggested the DB4e to me at that time because the original antenna was a bit small.

Of course, the DB4e is a pretty tall antenna so I can't go too much lower before the bottom will be sitting on the roof.

By the way, I checked the signals again and the CBS is back to where it was before. TabloTV showing full strength but it's having occasional, brief glitches. Still total watchable, unlike last night.

Unless you're bolting directly to a truss, or a rafter, I'd be careful w/ adding too much height, w/ the small footprint of a J pole.
You could also add some long spreaders, on the backside of the mounting surface. Cheap insurance.

So maybe I'd be better off with the gable mount like ADTech suggested?

Sorry, I overlooked where he recommended that but yes, it would have a larger footprint. I would still recommend backing strips of 2X4 on the backside, but you can probably feel it out first and make your decision at that point.

No, not always. What counts is the signal path. If lowering the antenna allows a better line of sight than the higher location, then the lower location may well work better, especially when the transmitters are close enough that the earth's curvature isn't yet much of a factor. If the higher location puts the antenna behind a more dense tree obstruction, for example, then the higher location probably won't help. There's also the possibility of a favorable ground bounce providing additional signal for a low-mounted antenna, but that phenomenon isn't likely to occur in a residential area.