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blackstone 14-Apr-2019 3:26 AM

Thanks, Tim.

My intention was to use these antennas that way.

I was told that my DB 8E was only a UHF antenna.
At the time, I had an old CM for VHF.
High winds did some damage to that old antenna which led me to the Clear Stream 5.

That didn't produce satisfactory results. so I returned it in the 90 day window and got the 5020.
Subsequently I have learned some of the problems I had with the Clear Stream may have been installer error or ignorance.

Is a UVSJ combiner something that looks like a splitter but not a splitter?
If so I have one, maybe, that I have been using

Nascarken 14-Apr-2019 11:50 AM

distribution amp'S
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by blackstone (Post 61243)
Nascarken, unless I misunderstand you, I have separate feeds up to the distribution amp where they are combined.

This is how I have been doing it for almost a couple years and just now experiencing it.

Joe AZ, also, why is this just now manifesting?

Is it because of the new Channel Master?

When the Clearstream 5 from Antennas Direct was hooked up with the DB 8 E, it wasn't a problem.

The antenna Direct antennas are all hi gain!!
ANTENNAs it does not matter where you put the distribution AMP
And that is what the ANTENNA manufactures say,I like when installing antenna
equipment and do not do the home work in the first place hello Rabbit ears
I have an OTHER Johansson amp kit would you be willing too tack it it's the
vhf/uhf and do testing on it and tell me what you think about them.
and I have like 15 left of them?? no more antenna installing for me my M,S
Has got the best of me,but hi gain ANTENNAs read about hi gain ANTENNAs and
what the antenna manufactures say.about distribution amp's.

blackstone 14-Apr-2019 12:34 PM

Thanks for the info, Nascarken.

I'll see if I can find that info to see what I can learn

bobsgarage 14-Apr-2019 1:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackstone (Post 61256)
Thanks, Bob, for your input.

I'm a techno-dunce and don't understand this stuff very much.

Do you have an example of a product that is a tuner so I could learn about them?

If I understand, my Channel Master and my DB 8 E are dissimilar antennas.

If I combine them with the right pre-amp I may have success?

Right now, my UHF antenna is powered with an Antennas Direct PA 18 UHF/VHF pre amp kit.
I'd had thought of connecting both antennas to it but didn't have the cables on hand when I hooked the antennas up

Good morning Blackstone.

So, you asked about tuners. The tuner is merely a box that your RF cable will go into and has an output of RF or HDMI or others like the red yellow and white RCA connections that would go to your TV. During the digital transition of 2009 the government was giving out coupons for the digital converter boxes for free.

Those were very basic, they were called converters and allowed people with non digital, old tube type TVs and inputs to be able to receive digital television. Now, you can buy a "tuner box", that will record your shows for you. TiVo, HomeRun, Channel Master, Homeworxs and others. Most modern television sets are digital ready and don't need any type of box, you can just screw the coax cable directly into the TV and the TV receives digital perfectly.

In the case of my new flat screen HDMI 4K TV there are no RF connections! I have to use a tuner with a HDMI outputs. Actually, I have two tuners but that's another story for another day.

I may not have made myself clear but those two antennas are completely different and will not combine without failure. Actually, in the case of the CM 5020 it is a UHF VHF combination antenna and is a standalone unit. You should try to just use it all by itself. Do not attempt to combine any antennas with it because it has everything you need. as a matter of fact if that antenna doesn't pick up your signals you have some serious work to do.

If you absolutely have to combines the two antennas then you need to do it with a pre-amplifier that accepts separate UHF / VHF inputs. but, before warrant it will block DHL from one antenna and the UHF from another so choose wisely. What a waste that would be to block the UHF from that 5020. since the DB8E is UHF only you would put that into the UHF input and screw the 5020 into the VHF input.

I was where you are at 3 years ago. So, it's still fresh in my mind, I received a lot of good advice here and I'm on some of the other forums. I'd like to say I've made some good friends here. I ignored some of the advice just to see for myself. I know it's irritating to those who are giving advice when somebody doesn't follow but I wanted to learn. In your case if you like to experiment have fun with it.

Since you have two completely different antennas (dissimilar), and I mean as different as you can get, you are better off running separate outputs to each TV if you have two TVs. You can always pre-amp your signal and split the signal to each TV. In other words since you already have two antennas, route the 5020 signal to the TV that needs UHF/VHF. Route the DB8E signal to a TV where you only care about UHF.

Or, if you want UHF and VHF from the other antenna you can get the Stellar labs VHF antenna and combine them with a UVSJ.

I like to mess around I took a break from it for a while and now I'm back on it.


blackstone 14-Apr-2019 3:30 PM

Bob, thanks for all that info.

I am grateful for TvFool and all the kind, patient people that offer help to dunderheads like me.

I try to follow advice. Some, I'm not sure I understand.

I have tried running one or the other antennas.
I will try again after posting this and report back.

Do you know of a specific preamp that would do this?

Quote:

do it with a pre-amplifier that accepts separate UHF / VHF inputs. but, before warrant it will block DHL from one antenna and the UHF from another so choose wisely.
This seems like a reasonable way to try since I can't get as many UHF stations with the 5020

blackstone 14-Apr-2019 4:09 PM

Here are the results of disconnecting each antenna.

With only the DB 8E only connected, I get the following.
(Virtual Channels) (RF Channels) (Call sign)
2 25 KDKA
4 51 WTAE
11 48 WPXI
16 38 ION
6 34 WJAC

With only the channel master, I get no UHF stations.

9 9 WTOV
13 13 WQED
19 11 WPCW

Together, they wipe out 4,6,11 and 13

53 WPGH has vanished again
I did a scan after each change

Nascarken 14-Apr-2019 7:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobsgarage (Post 61265)
Good morning Blackstone.

So, you asked about tuners. The tuner is merely a box that your RF cable will go into and has an output of RF or HDMI or others like the red yellow and white RCA connections that would go to your TV. During the digital transition of 2009 the government was giving out coupons for the digital converter boxes for free.

Those were very basic, they were called converters and allowed people with non digital, old tube type TVs and inputs to be able to receive digital television. Now, you can buy a "tuner box", that will record your shows for you. TiVo, HomeRun, Channel Master, Homeworxs and others. Most modern television sets are digital ready and don't need any type of box, you can just screw the coax cable directly into the TV and the TV receives digital perfectly.

In the case of my new flat screen HDMI 4K TV there are no RF connections! I have to use a tuner with a HDMI outputs. Actually, I have two tuners but that's another story for another day.

I may not have made myself clear but those two antennas are completely different and will not combine without failure. Actually, in the case of the CM 5020 it is a UHF VHF combination antenna and is a standalone unit. You should try to just use it all by itself. Do not attempt to combine any antennas with it because it has everything you need. as a matter of fact if that antenna doesn't pick up your signals you have some serious work to do.

If you absolutely have to combines the two antennas then you need to do it with a pre-amplifier that accepts separate UHF / VHF inputs. but, before warrant it will block DHL from one antenna and the UHF from another so choose wisely. What a waste that would be to block the UHF from that 5020. since the DB8E is UHF only you would put that into the UHF input and screw the 5020 into the VHF input.

I was where you are at 3 years ago. So, it's still fresh in my mind, I received a lot of good advice here and I'm on some of the other forums. I'd like to say I've made some good friends here. I ignored some of the advice just to see for myself. I know it's irritating to those who are giving advice when somebody doesn't follow but I wanted to learn. In your case if you like to experiment have fun with it.

Since you have two completely different antennas (dissimilar), and I mean as different as you can get, you are better off running separate outputs to each TV if you have two TVs. You can always pre-amp your signal and split the signal to each TV. In other words since you already have two antennas, route the 5020 signal to the TV that needs UHF/VHF. Route the DB8E signal to a TV where you only care about UHF.

Or, if you want UHF and VHF from the other antenna you can get the Stellar labs VHF antenna and combine them with a UVSJ.

I like to mess around I took a break from it for a while and now I'm back on it.


ok so if you want too do 2antennas one uhf and a seller's LAB
Hi gain vh f ANTENNA and if you want a shure thing for it to Receive well
And with no playing around I can get you a Johansson amp kit that is uhf/vh f
is35:dbg& the uhf 45:dbg,and you can adjust your db g on both sides and if
You use the seller's LAB hi gain ANTENNA With an ANTENNA Direct 91xg.
The space between the two of them is 4ft feet line's 52inches long in a T shape
To the amp and out to the tv set and the uhf 12inches.To the amp

Tim 14-Apr-2019 7:45 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by blackstone (Post 61260)
Thanks, Tim.

Is a UVSJ combiner something that looks like a splitter but not a splitter?
If so I have one, maybe, that I have been using

A UVSJ physically looks live a splitter but works very differently. It has an input marked UHF, another input marked VHF and a Line output. I would not count on it being a UVSJ unless it is specifically marked as such.

The UVSJ has a very specific function and is used when you want to combine UHF signals from one antenna with VHF signals from another antenna.

A UHF antenna will receive some VHF signal. The UVSJ filters out the VHF component from the UHF antenna.

A VHF antenna will receive some UHF signal. The UVSJ filters out the UHF component from the VHF antenna.

Since you have signals being received on two antennas, the signals may arrive at each antenna at a slightly different time. When combined together they may offset each other and lessen the total amount of signal making it weaker. Using the UVSJ, when it combines the signals from the two antennas, there are no competing signals that will mix with each other and cause signal degradation.

Tim 14-Apr-2019 8:06 PM

By the way, UVSJ combiners are getting a bit hard to find these days. Tower Guy posted a link a couple of weeks ago for a source:
https://www.goldmine-elec-products.c...?number=G21474
I ordered a couple just to have on hand.

After rereading this thread from start to finish, this is what I gather about Blackstone's situation:

He has a DB8E pointed 210 degrees to receive UHF stations only. It has a preamp.

He has a CM5020 pointed 220 degrees to receive VHF stations only. It has a preamp.

He has a separate feed from each antenna going to a Channelplus combiner/splitter.

The output of the combiner/splitter goes to a Channelmaster amp and out to the TV sets.

Blackstone, can you confirm that is how you have your system set up? If not, can you describe further?

blackstone 14-Apr-2019 8:14 PM

Tim, you have it almost totally correct.
The only thing different is that both antennas are aimed at, essentially, the same direction.
The DB 8E is, roughly 210-215 and the CM is, roughly, 220-225.

It may not be germane but each line has it's own preamp

Tim 14-Apr-2019 8:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackstone (Post 61277)
Tim, you have it almost totally correct.
The only thing different is that both antennas are aimed at, essentially, the same direction.
The DB 8E is, roughly 210-215 and the CM is, roughly, 220-225.

It may not be germane but each line has it's own preamp

Are the preamps mounted at the antennas?

Approximately how much feedline from the antenna to the preamp?

Approximately how much feedline from the preamp to the splitter/combiner?

Approximately how much feedline from the splitter/combiner to the distribution amp?

blackstone 14-Apr-2019 8:51 PM

One preamp is at the antenna for the DB 8E and there is approx. 3' from the antenna to the combiner.
The other is inside for the CM.
There is a 50' cable to the preamp and 3' to the combiner.

I think there is a 3' cable from the combiner to the distribution amp

blackstone 14-Apr-2019 9:45 PM

If anyone needs a UVSJ combiner, I had to buy 5 from the link Tim provided.
(They have a $10 minimum)

I would send them for postage

Tim 14-Apr-2019 10:56 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by blackstone (Post 61281)
One preamp is at the antenna for the DB 8E and there is approx. 3' from the antenna to the combiner.
The other is inside for the CM.
There is a 50' cable to the preamp and 3' to the combiner.

I think there is a 3' cable from the combiner to the distribution amp

OK, that is giving me a clearer picture of your system. Take a look at this diagram and let me know anything that needs to change.

How long is the cable run from the distribution amp to each of your TVs?

Also, are you using power inserters to power your preamps? Or are they powered directly at the preamp?

blackstone 14-Apr-2019 11:41 PM

That looks like it

Thanks, Tim

Tim 14-Apr-2019 11:47 PM

How long is the cable run from the distribution amp to each of your TVs?

Also, are you using power inserters to power your preamps? Or are they powered directly at the preamp?

blackstone 14-Apr-2019 11:52 PM

Not 100% sure about the living room; maybe 20-25' for each.
The living room is using old Direct tv cabling
The bedroom was put in when my mom was still alive so she could watch tv in bed

Tim 14-Apr-2019 11:54 PM

OK, good, now tell me how the pre-amps are powered. Are you using power inserters?

blackstone 14-Apr-2019 11:58 PM

I don't know what power inserters are.

If it helps, the one on the DB 8E is an Antennas Direct Pa 18 preamp and the CM is a Winegard LNA 100

Tim 15-Apr-2019 12:01 AM

OK, one last question, do you know the model of distribution amp?

blackstone 15-Apr-2019 12:04 AM

Channel Master 3414

Tim 15-Apr-2019 12:40 AM

1 Attachment(s)
OK, great, thanks for answering all the questions. I think the best thing to do at this point is to obtain a UVSJ and rewire your system as I have shown on the bottom of the attached drawing. It will be real simple to do. You will be putting in the UVSJ where your combiner/splitter is currently located and replacing your distribution amp with the combiner/splitter (you can always put the distribution amp back in if you need to). You already have plenty of amplification with the preamps and the distribution amp might be overkill. I think the UVSJ has a good chance of resolving your problem.

blackstone 15-Apr-2019 12:58 AM

Thanks for all your patient help, Tim.

Although there are 4 TVs, only 2 regularly watch OTA.
My son watches the local news on a 3rd but that's all.

I have 5 UVSJs ordered so will need to wait until they get here.

Could I replace the 3414 with something like this; a 4 outlet non powered splitter so all TVs had antenna access?
https://smile.amazon.com/5-2300-Coax...sr=1-4-catcorr

I really, really appreciate your help as well as everyone else.

Will check back after I get the UVSJ

Tim 15-Apr-2019 1:21 AM

Yes, the 4 port splitter would work fine.

blackstone 15-Apr-2019 1:22 AM

Thank you, again

rabbit73 15-Apr-2019 2:08 AM

1 Attachment(s)
The LNA200 uses a power inserter, but the LNA100 does not use a power inserter. The USB power for the LNA100 goes directly into a connector on the amp housing.
http://www.winegard.com/help/images/8/8a/2452286.pdf

Some UVSJs pass power on the UHF side and some pass power on the VHF side. The Radio Shack and Antennas Direct UVSJs pass power on the UHF side. My guess is that the ASKA only passes power on the VHF side.

The location of the power inserter for the PA18 is critical. It might be necessary to use the ASKA UVSJ after the power inserter for the PA18.

https://www.antennasdirect.com/cmss_...L_20130301.pdf

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackstone (Post 61290)
I don't know what power inserters are.

If it helps, the one on the DB 8E is an Antennas Direct Pa 18 preamp and the CM is a Winegard LNA 100

A power inserter is a device that allows you to put the preamp close to the antenna and the power supply inside out of the weather. The coax that carries the signal down from the preamp also carries the DC power up to the preamp.

https://forum.tvfool.com/attachment....8&d=1555291096

http://i.imgur.com/uVHwqcw.jpg

blackstone 15-Apr-2019 3:17 AM

Thanks for that, Rabbit73.

I believe Tim's diagram shows the UVSJ after the power inserters for both leads.

Tim 15-Apr-2019 3:28 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by blackstone (Post 61294)
Thanks for all your patient help, Tim.

Although there are 4 TVs, only 2 regularly watch OTA.
My son watches the local news on a 3rd but that's all.

I have 5 UVSJs ordered so will need to wait until they get here.

Could I replace the 3414 with something like this; a 4 outlet non powered splitter so all TVs had antenna access?
https://smile.amazon.com/5-2300-Coax...sr=1-4-catcorr

I really, really appreciate your help as well as everyone else.

Will check back after I get the UVSJ

I have revised the diagram to show the 4 port splitter.

blackstone 15-Apr-2019 3:33 AM

Thank you, Tim.

Looking forward to receiving the parts and testing this

blackstone 15-Apr-2019 2:34 PM

One last question, please?
(Until the next last question)

Rabbit73's post just made me wonder something.

I have an Antennas Direct Combiner. Also located my second PA 18 preamp.

Would the Antennas Direct combiner work and not need the UVSJ?
I would put the Pa 18 pre amp on my VHF and eliminate the Winegard.

bobsgarage 15-Apr-2019 2:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackstone (Post 61294)
Thanks for all your patient help, Tim.

Although there are 4 TVs, only 2 regularly watch OTA.
My son watches the local news on a 3rd but that's all.

I have 5 UVSJs ordered so will need to wait until they get here.

Could I replace the 3414 with something like this; a 4 outlet non powered splitter so all TVs had antenna access?
https://smile.amazon.com/5-2300-Coax...sr=1-4-catcorr

I really, really appreciate your help as well as everyone else.

Will check back after I get the UVSJ

Yes, please get back to us after you've done that work. for me I'm interested to see how pre-amping the signals before combining them works. If it doesn't work try combining with the UVSJ and then pre-amping them after.

If the name of the Antennas Direct component is a combiner it is probably not a UVSJ so do not use it unless it says it to UVSJ

blackstone 15-Apr-2019 3:20 PM

Thanks for the fast reply, Bob.

Here's what it says on the site.

It says diplexer on the picture
Quote:

This all-weather antenna combiner merges the signals from a UHF antenna with a VHF antenna on the same cable. Coaxial cable sold separately.
•DC Power Pass on UHF Port
•Insertion loss: VHF-IN/OUT 54-88 NHz 0.5dB; 174-216 Mhz 0.5dB; UHF-IN/OUT 470-698 0.8dB
•Return loss: IN/OUT 54-88 Mhz 18db; 174-216 18dB; 470-698 MHz 12dB
•Return loss: VHF 54-88 18dB; 174-216 18dB
•Return loss: UHF 470-698 12dB
•Isolation: VHF-UHF 54-88 30dB; 174-216dB, 470-698 30dB

Helpful Tips:

The DC power pass on the UHF port allows for UHF-only amplification in special circumstances. For example, when UHF signals require amplification, but the VHF signals may not. Or your household has an existing amplified antenna, but also needs to add a separate VHF antenna that doesn't need amplification.

rabbit73 15-Apr-2019 4:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackstone (Post 61299)
Thanks for that, Rabbit73.

I believe Tim's diagram shows the UVSJ after the power inserters for both leads.

Tim's revised diagram shows the UVSJ after the preamps, but it does not show the power inserter for the PA18 or how the LNA100 gets power.

blackstone 15-Apr-2019 4:23 PM

I see that, now.

I wouldn't have thought of it but would have put the UVSJ on the TV side of the inserters since that is where they combine

Nascarken 15-Apr-2019 5:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim (Post 61272)
A UVSJ physically looks live a splitter but works very differently. It has an input marked UHF, another input marked VHF and a Line output. I would not count on it being a UVSJ unless it is specifically marked as such.

The UVSJ has a very specific function and is used when you want to combine UHF signals from one antenna with VHF signals from another antenna.

A UHF antenna will receive some VHF signal. The UVSJ filters out the VHF component from the UHF antenna.

A VHF antenna will receive some UHF signal. The UVSJ filters out the UHF component from the VHF antenna.

Since you have signals being received on two antennas, the signals may arrive at each antenna at a slightly different time. When combined together they may offset each other and lessen the total amount of signal making it weaker. Using the UVSJ, when it combines the signals from the two antennas, there are no competing signals that will mix with each other and cause signal degradation.

Yes that's true if u use an amp like a channel master 7778or the 7777 amp
The feed line frum the ANTENNA to the amp if 52 inches long will increase the vh F RECIVE. ??

Tim 15-Apr-2019 5:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabbit73 (Post 61305)
Tim's revised diagram shows the UVSJ after the preamps, but it does not show the power inserter for the PA18 or how the LNA100 gets power.

I am not clear as to how Blackstone is powering his preamps. If he can explain that to us, I will add it to the diagram.

blackstone 15-Apr-2019 5:54 PM

Referring to your original drawing, Tim.
The UHF antenna has the Antennas Direct PA 18 preamp on the mast.
The power inserter is before the splitter/combiner inside.

The VHF antenna is using the Winegard preamp.
Using Rabbit73's explanation above for the LNA 100, it is also on the antenna side of the splitter/combiner.

Hope this is the info you were looking for.

Thanks.

PS: First opportunity, I will replace the Winegard with my second PA 18 preamp

Tim 15-Apr-2019 5:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackstone (Post 61302)
One last question, please?
(Until the next last question)

Rabbit73's post just made me wonder something.

I have an Antennas Direct Combiner. Also located my second PA 18 preamp.

Would the Antennas Direct combiner work and not need the UVSJ?
I would put the Pa 18 pre amp on my VHF and eliminate the Winegard.

In an earlier post you stated,

"With only the channel master, I get no UHF stations.

9 9 WTOV
13 13 WQED
19 11 WPCW"

Looks like you were picking up your high VHF stations with no problem using the LNA100 amp. If it's working don't change it.

Don't confuse UVSJ and combiner. They perform completely different functions. The UVSJ will hopefully isolate your two antennas from each other and eliminate the signal degradation you are experiencing. Using a combiner to combine two antennas usually does not work well.

Tim 15-Apr-2019 6:07 PM

Blackstone, in an earlier post you said you had the PA18 mounted on the mast of the DB8E and then 3 ft of cable connecting the preamp to the splitter/combiner. You also said the splitter/combiner was in your basement. Can you confirm that the 3 ft of cable is correct? That just doesn't seem right to me.

blackstone 15-Apr-2019 6:56 PM

Sorry for any confusion.
The PA 18 is connected to the DB 8E with a 3' cable.
Then 50' cable is connected to the PA 18 to the power inserter with 3' cable to the combiner

Thanks for clarifying the UVSJ.

As you can tell, I understand as much about electronics as I do rocket surgery


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