UHF/VHF Antenna on Roof
 

After contemplating putting an antenna like the CM 4228 in the attic, I've come to my senses and decided to put a VHF/UHF antenna on the roof, something like the Winegard 7697P which will pick up Channels 7-69.
With a WG HDP-269P pre-amp that won't overload on the nearby station.

Here is my TvFool report:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...cd7207a9e594f4

The Channels I'd like to pick up are:
NYC: VHF 7,11,13 and UHF 28,33,38,44
PHI: VHF: 6 and UHF: 17,26,32,34,42

I have some issues:
I realize I will not get Ch. 6 from Philly with this antenna - I will need a much larger Winegard 8200U Ch. 2-69 antenna for that.

Also, we don't need channels 52-69 UHF any more - are there any UHF/VHF antennas that are more streamlined to pick up only Channels 7-51 or 2-51?
Really don't want to combine two seperate antenna for VHF/UHF.

Any feedback or recommendations would be greatly appreciated,

Thanks,
John

Reception
 

The link is not working

Here is the link http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...cd7207a9e594f4

If I were in your shoes, I would use a Winegard 8200 antenna & Winegard 8700 preamp. The HDP-269 would probably be fine for 1-2 TV's, but I would think the 8700 would provide enough resistance to overload & provide additional gain for the weaker UHF's from NYC..

I would be afraid that the 7697 or 7698 antenna wouldn't get channel 6 well at that distance.

Thanks for the heads up on the TVFool report link.

Static, I will research your recommendation.

My original plan was for an 8200U, but then I took into account size (the 7698P seems so much more compact).
I take it to receive the low VHF channels you need the bigger elements on the antenna.
I may forego trying for Ch. 6 from Philly if I can get Ch. 7 from NYC, this way I can put a smaller Ch. 7-69 antenna on the roof :)

Also, can you recommend a good rotator for my setup?

Thanks,

As of yet, I have not seen any commercially available antennas that have been optimized for the narrower bandwidth. However, there are many DIY antenna designs that have been tweaked and optimized for today's spectrum layout.



The Channel Master 9521A should be fine for a single antenna like yours as long as you keep the mast length short.

Looking at 2-69 antennas now... maybe the Winegard HD7084P instead of the 8200U beast... should be able to pick up NYC and PHI with that one eh? Don't think I'll hit ch6 with a 7698P like static said.
Also can I get channels from the rear of these antennas... greek style?

To get channel 6, you'll need a BIG antenna...
A compact, powerful channel 7-69 antenna is listed below, I use it and love it....ignore the channel assignments, just use the frequency assignments, it won't get chan 2 thru 6:

http://www.digiwavetechnologies.com/...ge&PAGE_id=281

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c3...q/DSC00094.jpg
The big antenna above the rotor is a channel 6 antenna, the Digiwave's on top....

Nice Setup KB, would it be better for me to get a separate UHF antenna like the WG 9095P and a separate VHF antenna like the WG ya-1713 and combine them, instead of using a combo antenna?

^^^You may also want to consider the PR-9032 from Winegard. That antenna has slightly better gain and gets some better reviews from users. I googled both the 9032 and 9035 a while back and found enough info from people using both to come to that conclusion. You may also want to consider the Antennas Direct MXU59. I use that along with a 91xg at my location and they both perform virtually the same.

With my phased pair of ANT-2075's, and an AntennaCraft 10G212 30db pre-amp, I pull stations 53 miles out to my south and 91 miles out to my north...the distances to your towers looks like they are under 50 miles out, personally, I would get a VHF-hi/UHF combo antenna, such as my ANT-2075 or similar yagi design...and as I mentioned, if you HAVE to get WPVI channel 6 , you're gonna have a BIG antenna, like mine....but, I believe, if you search, you might be able to get a VHF-lo/VHF-hi/UHF antenna that will get all your channels....I couldn't find one on the internet, but they used to make them, maybe not anymore....A combo VHF-hi/UHF would do the job for you....

VHF-Hi/UHF antenna
 

Thanks man, I am leaning towards the Winegard 7698P VHF-Hi/UHF antenna.
You're right I'm within 40-45 miles from my towers, but I'm a little worried about a big pine tree on my land next to my house in the direction I will be pointing the antenna.
Guess I will have to try and find out - I would hate to mount it and find out that the signal is blocked.
Is there anything I can do to test the signal before I put the antenna up?
Thanks for the help.

Probably only thing you can do that won't break the bank, get an inside style loop antenna at Radio Shack, put it on the roof (on a nice day), maybe 15 bucks for the looper, point loop in the direction you think the towers are, connect a longer cable with a coupler, then connect to a TV and see what you get....it will only be a dipole quality signal, basically one element as opposed to a multi-element of the 7698p, but if you get ANYTHING at all on that insider antenna, you can guess the Winegard will be much better.
That's all I gots...
The pine tree might or might not be an issue, depending on the power at the towers, and how tall and dense the tree is....OTA reception is just a crap shoot anyways, you may get lucky...maybe not....I receive thru a large forest area and I'm good....

EDIT:
You have a few UHF stations running 600+ Kilo Watts of power, one 1000 KW...you may get lucky...

OTA & Tivo
 

I will put the antenna on the roof and pray... if the pine tree blocks NYC towers then I'll aim the sucker at PHI.

One other thing that concerns me is my TIVO... anyone know what type of converter is in the TivoHD's(series 3)?

Also, ff I can get both PHI and NYC, I'm thinking 2 antenna pointed in 2 different directions w/ a JoinTenna(or something similar).
Reason being is I've heard rotators can be a nightmare w/ Tivo.

J

If you mean what kind of tuner is inside the TivoHD, then the answer is that it has a ATSC/NTSC/QAM capable tuner. That means it can pick up broadcast TV and unencrypted digital cable signals directly. If you get a CableCARD from your cable company, it's also possible to record the encrypted cable channels. You do not need any kind of external converter box for your Tivo to deal with OTA signals.



Most of your signals are fairly strong, so this might be possible to some degree. The JoinTenna won't work because there are just too many channels alternating in between each other. However, a direct combination of antennas might partially work.

The main problem with combining antennas is that the performance of the antennas goes down. A high-gain antenna needs to be very directional, but by combining antennas you are making a less-directional antenna, and that means lowering the effective gain. Furthermore, having a less-directional antenna can increase your susceptibility to multipath interference (multiple signal reflections making their way into your antenna and down to your receiver).

What this probably means is that the channels lower down in your list (lower part of the "red zone" channels) might not come in so reliably. You are effectively trading off low-end sensitivity for an antenna configuration with broader coverage.



The issue has to do with unattended recording of shows. If you had a single antenna on a rotator, then the antenna might not be pointing at the station(s) that the Tivo is trying to record. If you leave the antenna pointed at Philly, the Tivo won't be able to record shows from NYC and vice-versa.

With a two-antenna setup pointing at both markets simultaneously, you can record shows from either market (or both simultaneously) without having to touch the antenna system. However, as stated above, the sensitivity and resistance to multipath interference might not be as good.



The alternative approach is to give up on one of the metros and just concentrate on one city (since about 80% of the programming is going to be identical anyways). You'll miss out on some of the localized programming that's out there, but you'll be no worse off than people who have no choice and are restricted to just one market due to their location.

I'm getting there....
 

mtown, you make too much sense brotha, I think yer right, I'll just focus on NYC with one antenna.
I do have a multi-stream cable card for my tivo btw - didn't like the fios stb.

I didn't realize combining the antennas would decrease my gain... something I don't want to do since I'll be using a VHF-hi/UHF combo antenna and I need all the UHF gain I can get.

Are you saying also that combining separate UHF and VHF antennas pointed in the same direction would decrease gain - as opposed to a combo antenna?
Something like a 91XG and a YA1713 on the same mast as opposed to a 7698P?
Thanks for all the feedback.

Combing VHF and UHF antennas will have very little effect on gain so long as you combine with a special coupler known as a USVJ and maintain about a five foot spacing between them.

Dave is exactly right.

When you're combining antennas from different bands, you need to use a diplexer that isolates the low-band antenna from the high-band antenna. The UVSJ (Dave had the V and S transposed) is the ideal diplexer that splits between the VHF and UHF bands.

Antennas connected this way can perform as if they were operating independently (no loss of performance).



Some pre-amps (like the Channel Master 7777) come with dual inputs (one for VHF and one for UHF). These types of amps will internally combine the signals (like the UVSJ) and amplify them at the same time, eliminating the need for an external diplexer.

I can see clearly now...
 

All this OTA stuff is becoming clearer to me, thanks to you guys...

I think I have all the pieces for my OTA project in place, now for the installation - getting up on the roof and strapping the antenna to the chimney....
whch bring up another concern - from looking at maps and direction of the towers from NYC, the best place to place my antenna is on the chimney for my boiler exhaust.
For one it's smaller than my fireplace chimney and it smokes alot in the winter - so a little worried about high winds and a big antenna cracking the chimney, and a little less worried about fumes degrading the signal.

Another thing, I will be installing Solar panels soon on the roof - should I be worried about my reception witht he antenna and the panels up there?

How small of a chimney are you talking about? and what is it made of?

So far, I have never heard of anyone breaking a chimney due to a TV antenna. I suppose anything is possible, but chances are that the antenna mast will bend or the chimney mount itself will break (causing the antenna to fall over) before the chimney gives way. I've seen bent masts and broken mounts, but never a broken chimney.

The antenna should be at least about 4-5 feet above the roof. Don't go any higher than necessary and you can keep the stress on the chimney, mount, and mast to a minimum. The peak stress levels go up approximately with the square of the distance from the mounting point, so if you double the mast length, you almost quadruple the peak stress at the mount.

For taller mast installations (perhaps because neighboring buildings or other obstructions make antenna height a necessity), I recommend using guy wires (usually if the mast is over 10 feet). This will offload a lot of the lateral stress on the mast, leaving mostly downward force on the mount.



Probably not. As long as the antenna is at least 4-5 feet above the roof, I wouldn't anticipate any problems.

The antennas are designed for ideal operation in open space (that is, no other objects around them, especially metal). The mast is already factored into the design, so it is safe to use a vertical metal mast. The influence of other nearby objects falls off with the square of the distance, and usually, by the time you are more than 1 wavelength away from the antenna, the effect is starting to get very small. The wavelength of channel 7 is approximately 5.6 feet. The wavelength of channel 36 is approximately 1.6 feet.

Even if you have objects less than 1 wavelength away (like for channel 6, having a wavelength of about 11.6 feet), it does not necessarily mean that anything bad will happen. It just means that the potential exists for the antenna's behavior to change at those frequencies.

With the antenna 4-5 feet above the roof, you should be pretty safe. This should be enough distance such that even after the solar panels are installed, any influence that they might have would be small or negligible.

Considering the cost of solar panels it might be wise to make sure that you locate the antenna in a place where, if it should fall over, it won't take out a panel or more.

Chimney mount w/ Solar panels
 

How small of a chimney are you talking about? and what is it made of?

Town, It's about 2 Ft. wide and 5 Ft. tall made of what looks like stucco? It's not brick. And it's on the side of the roof, with the top of the chimney being about the height of the peak of the roof.
So I'd need a 5 ft. mast to get it 5 Ft. above the roof.
I will post some pics of my roof and the line to the towers.

I also thought about eve mount, but the power line to the house is mounted right at that eve.... hmmm, but if I get it 5 ft. high above the power line I should be fine eh :)


Considering the cost of solar panels it might be wise to make sure that you locate the antenna in a place where, if it should fall over, it won't take out a panel or more.

Billi, LOL! yer right, never put much thought about the consequences of a fallen antenna.

^^^In the early 90's I had two very large antennas come down off a tower I had in my backyard thanks to bad weather. Thus, whenever I install a new antenna I make sure it won't take out any important objects like a window or electrical wires. Cables TV wires? I situate the antenna in a spot where if it does fall, it will fall directly on the now uselss and disconnected cable coax. :-)

If you have a stink pipe aka vent pipe on the roof, you may want to use that instead of the stucco structure you mentioned. Unless you know what is underneath the stucco, it would be wise not to attach a chimney strap. May only be 2 x 4's and particle board covered by the stucco. A vent pipe that is sturdy and not shaking around should be adequate as long as you don't use a lot of mast or a huge antenna like the Winegard 8200u. I have a Antennacraft MXU59 and Winegard YA-1713 on my stink pipe and I've had no issues with them moving around.

stink pipe
 

heh, yer funny with the stink pipe... I have one but it's not sturdy enough for a big antenna... unless I reinforce it in the attic....
guess I shouldn't put it on the eve close to the power line in case it comes down... sigh.
looks like I'll try strapping it to the chimney and also mount one side to the roof for reinforcement, king of like a chimney/roof mount. :)

Yeah, it's best to stay away from power lines. The risk of electrical shock is very real and you don't want to be within reach of any electrified wires while holding a "10 foot metal tree".

10 ft. metal tree
 

heh, i hear ya, loud and clear - don't mess with power.

been thinking about my signal-
Fm 100.3 comes in so-so by me - in and out.
This frequency is between ch 6 and 7 VHF...
so If I'm having trouble getting VHF, am I in trouble with UHF reception?
Granted the radio is on ground level and the antenna will be 25-30 ft. on the roof...

I don't think so. If you follow the advice given so far, I think you will be fine of TV reception. Putting an antenna on the roof gets you out of a lot of "clutter" (walls, cars, stuff inside the walls, neighboring houses, etc.) that makes reception difficult indoors. With a "clean" signal from your roof using the right size antenna, you should be fine.

BTW, the FM band is just above channel 6, so if you get a TV antenna that supports channels 2-6, you can probably hook up the same antenna feed to your FM receiver to get great reception. Antennas designed for high-VHF only (i.e., channels 7-13 or 7-69) don't go down far enough to help with FM reception.

place to mount...
 

Thanks for all your help guys - been scouting the outside of the house for a place to mount the antenna - I think one of 2 chimneys is best -

One chimney (smaller white one for boiler) is closer to the pine tree in the direction of the tower and the fireplace chimney (brick, bigger) is further back from the tree.
I'm thinking the further back from the tree the better - the only thing with the fireplace chimney is that it has a metal cap - will this impact my signal, with say a 5 ft mast?
Thanks.

The brick chiminey is the winner to mount, the cap should not hurt you at 5 feet up, and the trees don't look like they'll be an issue either. I'd bite the bullet, get a vhf/uhf antenna, mount it and see what you get.....

mast...
 

cool, thanks, was leaning towards the brick fireplace...
so I will need something like a 7 ft. mast to get 5 ft. above that metal cap - cause I will lose a couple of feet to mounting eh?
off to solidsignal to modify the cart...

Just buy a ten foot mast and cut it down to the right size. If the local hardware store can't do it then a hack saw should work. Lowes cut a 10 foot piece of EMT for me. May want to look there.

....or two 5 footers, this way, attach one 5'er to the chiminey, cut the other 5'er to length, attach antenna and coax to that one laying on the roof, then slide that mast onto the chiminey mast...easier and safer...

hmmmm
 

wouldn't the 2 masts have to be of different diameter for me to do that?
how would I slide one into the other... with say 2-5ft 1 1/4" pipes?

Most products sold as "TV masts" are not just ordinary pipes. In many cases, they already have one end of the pipe tapered so that they can inserted into the end of another section of mast. They also have notches or set screws that prevent the different mast sections from rotating relative to each other.

In other words, they are designed to stack end-to-end without rotating.

You can probably find TV masts at your local Radio Shack, Home Depot, or Lowe's if you want to see how they're built.

...and, with my design, if you ever decide to add a rotor, just split the masts and put in the rotor between them...on the chiminey mast, the small diameter end will point up, and on the antenna mast, the large diameter end will point down....

Getting there....
 

I purchased a Winegard 7698P antenna with Winegard AP-8700 pre amp along w/ 100' of rg-6 coax.
My plan is to eave mount the antenna w/ 5' mast, run the coax loose and connect to tv to see if I get a signal - if everything is good, I do a more permanent installation.

My question is on grounding - there is a unused comcast coax wire entering my foundation, which is connected to a block and is grounded to the water pipe coming out of my well.

I know the correct way to ground is via ground rod/block/wire outside - but can I get away with using the ground block just inside my basement (close to the entry point) for my antenna?

I will pull out the cable company coax, run my new antenna coax through, connect to the block, the run another coax wire to my tv.

John

I'd suggest doing the job right the first time, though many folks "get away with..."

Grounding

grounding
 

Yer right about doing it the right way - you're definitely not going to like what you see next :)

How effective would a device like this be?

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...rotection&sku=

If the only risk was voltage buildup between the center conductor and shield of the coax, that would be a good option.

Back to your question of Some people get away with a lot worse... All I can do is recommend doing it right. The link I posted is a bit to wade through but it does include some links to generic drawings and my somewhat biased opinions on the subject.

Probably.

It really depends on the length of the ground wire from the ground block to your house ground. If the CATV installer did it right, you'll be safe and legal, but not all CATV installs are done properly.

ground wire...
 

Cable coax comes in, about a foot from the foundation, and hits a ground block - the length of the ground wire from the block to the water pipe is about 1 foot.

the Fios guy did a much cleaner install of the fiber than the Comcast guy did with the coax - yer right, it depends on who you get.