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-   -   Help needed in Fountain Hills, AZ (http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=16500)

JoeAZ 6-Sep-2018 3:16 PM
Help needed in Fountain Hills, AZ
 
I am posting this message so as to get input from others as this
person is not yet able to make their own posts. My first inclination
would be to say you've done a whole lot of things correctly. The
antenna, short cable runs, etc, etc are all signs you have a very
good knowledge of broadcast reception. With that said, how did
you come about with the placement of your tower??? Was the
placement due to convenience or some other priority??? Have
you tried receiving all your television from Tucson??? I have
seen many, many times where Tucson get a better signal to Ftn.
Hills than Phoenix stations on South Mtn?? Lets hear from some
of our experts on this!!!!!!!!!

Greeting from Fountain Hills
Hi, I'm in Fountain Hills AZ trying to get a reliable signal on Channel 12. I've got mountains and a neighbors house causing problems. Prior to the neighbors house being there I was getting a signal at a much lower height. Now 58' AGL gets it, 54' AGL doesn't. Antenna is currently down to about 33' AGL for maintenance and monsoon season. At 33' I lose Ch 3 (23) as well as 12. Antenna is a Winegard HD7698, 50' cable run to a Channel Plus DA-506BID DA to 4 TVs in the house. I just climbed off the tower to disconnect a Lime PA which Solid Signals had on sale, thought I'd give it a try. I could seen no difference in the system with the rudimentary signal strength meters at my disposal. In fact I lost Ch 5 (17), 60 mins didn't record last night. Thus I took the Juice PA off line. It looks like I need higher gain in at the antenna level. This is a PM because I see you're from AZ and have had some insightful posts. I can't post to the forum, I applied 4 weeks ago but haven't been activated yet which is a bit frustrating. I'm getting ready to put the antenna back up (with new guy wires, that and the monsoons inspired me to take it down to 33') I'd love to get the experts insights as to how I might be able to increase my antenna gain but it's football season so the antenna needs to get back up. :-) By the way, I can't get 3 (24) at 33' but I can get Tucson 4 (23), go figure. :-) Thanks in advance for any light you can shed on this.
Here's my location report
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...90386d3aea6f11

rabbit73 7-Sep-2018 2:12 PM
1 Attachment(s)
http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...7&d=1536333863

TVFool report link doesn't work, Joe; it's broken in the middle. You must have done a copy and paste. Is this it?
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...90386d3aea6f11

Is there any chance you can ask (insert his username here) the exact coordinates of his antenna and give them to me by PM, so that I can look at the satellite view?

JoeAZ 7-Sep-2018 3:59 PM
Rabbit73,
I've asked for our new member to PM you directly.

ADTech 7-Sep-2018 4:23 PM
Couple of comments, even thought the OP is not able to reply directly. You're welcome to reply via PM (if it works) and I'll paste in any replies:

1. "I applied 4 weeks ago but haven't been activated yet" - Been a lot of that going on for a couple of years. Sadly, it seems the site owner no longer has either the time or inclination to manage either the site or the underlying database. Hasn't been a moderator present for several years, the last two apparently drifted away (or whatever).

2. "Channel Plus DA-506BID DA" - I've never heard of it, but its published specs don't leave me impressed as far as its maximum input power.

3. "Lime PA which Solid Signals had on sale" - Surely a typo as I can't find anything on the SS website called by that name.

4. "It looks like I need higher gain in at the antenna level" - Both unlikely and probably impractical. Your existing antenna is about as good as it can get in regards to net gain on high-VHF short of either building your own or building a dedicated array of multiple high-VHF band antennas. There is a Chinese-made import that's being sold by various sellers, but it is not clearly documented as to what to expect from it in regards to performance.

5. "Prior to the neighbors house being there I was getting a signal at a much lower height. Now 58' AGL gets it, 54' AGL doesn't." - Sounds more like you have a location problem than anything else. Relocating a tower is not easy, but it likely what you need to do.

6. You have an FM station (105.9) very close by that would suggest that an FM trap would be prudent. While it's frequency is such that its 2nd harmonic doesn't fall into the channel 12 bandwidth, it's pretty close and there is a potential for it mixing with some other nearby signal to produce intermodulation products within the channel 12 bandwidth. It's also possible that it's forcing your aim into some compression and that's causing the difficulties with channel 12. Like I said, a trap would be "prudent" but the math isn't crystal clear as an indicator. The hard part would locating the trap, sometimes you can find left over Radio Shack units on ebay. I also have no idea how the 7698 would react to FM signals but I suspect it would receive them rather strongly but at odd angles to the expected performance that is documented. Of course, since FM is out of the design band for that antenna, Winegard did not document that particular aspect of its performance.

rabbit73 7-Sep-2018 11:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeAZ (Post 60229)
Rabbit73,
I've asked for our new member to PM you directly.
Good.

I hope he knows that he has a limit of 5 PMs before he is authorized to post. If he needs to continue a PM conversation, he has to copy and save earlier PMs, and then delete them.

Good advice above from ADTech.
Quote:
Prior to the neighbors house being there I was getting a signal at a much lower height. Now 58' AGL gets it, 54' AGL doesn't.
Sounds like the neighbor's house is blocking the signal. Raising the antenna certainly helps.
Quote:
I just climbed off the tower to disconnect a Lime PA which Solid Signals had on sale, thought I'd give it a try. I could seen no difference in the system with the rudimentary signal strength meters at my disposal. In fact I lost Ch 5 (17), 60 mins didn't record last night. Thus I took the Juice PA off line.
Are you calling the Juice preamp the Lime preamp? Why would you remove a preamp when your report indicates you need one? OTA signals constantly vary in strength. Your test doesn't support the conclusion to remove the preamp with 2Edge marginal signals.

It's not clear to me what is connected to what and how long the coax lines are. Something like this?

7698 > preamp > coax 50 ft > grounding block > preamp power inserter > distribution amp > TVs

Quote:
By the way, I can't get 3 (24) at 33' but I can get Tucson 4 (23), go figure. :-)
Enhancement of weak, usually impossible, signals by Tropospheric Propagation.

Quote:
Hi, I'm in Fountain Hills AZ trying to get a reliable signal on Channel 12.
Electrical interference is higher on VHF-High than on UHF. it could be affecting reception of 12.

Another possibility is FM interference. You have a strong local FM signal that can interfere with the reception of 12. I did an FMFool report based on an estimated location derived from your TVFool report because I don't have your address or the exact coordinates of your antenna. It shows that KHOT-FM at -13.7 dBm is strong enough to interfere with 12.
http://www.fmfool.com/modeling/tmp/7...d/Radar-FM.png

The Juice preamp doesn't have an FM filter, but it does have an LTE filter; there wasn't room in the case for both. For some weird reason ADTech's boss decided to discontinue their FM filter.
https://www.antennasdirect.com/store...on_filter.html

And what is even more weird, their UVSJ UHF/VHF combiner is out of stock:
https://www.antennasdirect.com/store..._combiner.html

His boss doesn't seem to understand that having those two items in stock encourages the sale of their antennas.

Rant over.

Anyway, you can use a HLSJ, high section, as an FM filter:
https://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=zhlsj

Order two; you might need two in series between the antenna and the preamp if my estimate is correct. And the coax must be grounded with a grounding block connected to the house electrical system ground to help reject interference.

ADTech 8-Sep-2018 1:02 PM
Quote:
For some weird reason ADTech's boss decided to discontinue their FM filter.
It's not weird at all. It took SIX YEARS to sell through the last order that we had received and we have to order those things in minimums of several thousand. By the time we sold through that inventory, we had already paid cumulative inventory carrying costs over that time that we actually lost money on the last units. Since the first order of business is to not loose money (can't make it up on volume), the decision was made to discontinue that item as well as a good number of other SKUs that were slow moving and unprofitable.


Quote:
And what is even more weird, their UVSJ UHF/VHF combiner is out of stock:
A distributor cleaned us out earlier this summer with a large order that they had not forecast. Replenishment stock should be available in about two weeks, it was to arrive in Long Beach yesterday. In the meantime, inside sales as a limited number of UVSJ devices that we stripped from leftover C2 VHF Reflector kits that were to have been scrapped. They were supplied by Holland with our private label on them. You have to call in to order them.


Quote:
His boss doesn't seem to understand that having those two items in stock encourages the sale of their antennas.
My boss understands perfectly what his obligations are. SKUs that are not earning their keep get pruned and eliminated from the product lineup. We do not pretend to be a one-stop shop for everything antenna related, our product lineup is focused on those items that sell in volume with sufficient margin so as to support all of the obligations of the company including my personal favorite, my paycheck. I happen to be in favor of that priority.


Rant rebuttal over.


Quote:
Anyway, you can use a HLSJ, high section, as an FM filter:
https://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=zhlsj
It's good to see that SS has those back in stock. They were out last year and, when I spoke to them, they weren't sure they could find any remaining inventory somewhere. I finally found a couple on ebay that I needed for an experimental setup. They will indeed work well for suppressing the local FM station and, as suggested, it will probably require two of them to be stacked to provide enough FM signal reduction.

JoeAZ 8-Sep-2018 2:41 PM
OK Guys, rant and rebuttals aside, I want to draw your attention to the TV Fool
report that indicates KVOA, NBC 4 Tucson, on Rf 23. The Tucson stations on Mt.
Bigelow appear unrecoverable in the report yet they do manage to be received
in Ftn. Hills. My "take" on this is that the TV Fool report is erroneous. The Phoenix
stations are over-represented and the Tucson stations under represented.
Since the Tucson stations are being received consistently, how can this be tropo?
Your thoughts???

rabbit73 8-Sep-2018 3:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADTech (Post 60240)
It's not weird at all. It took SIX YEARS to sell through the last order that we had received and we have to order those things in minimums of several thousand. By the time we sold through that inventory, we had already paid cumulative inventory carrying costs over that time that we actually lost money on the last units. Since the first order of business is to not loose money (can't make it up on volume), the decision was made to discontinue that item as well as a good number of other SKUs that were slow moving and unprofitable.
Thank you for the thorough and well-thought-out explanation; it makes perfect sense from a business standpoint.

Antennas Direct was the last regular supplier of FM traps, which are vital for good reception at some locations. Is there some reason why Antennas Direct can't sell them at a price point that would be profitable? The former price point was so low that it was obviously unprofitable. There doesn't seem to much competition now for that device.

Quote:
A distributor cleaned us out earlier this summer with a large order that they had not forecast. Replenishment stock should be available in about two weeks, it was to arrive in Long Beach yesterday. In the meantime, inside sales as a limited number of UVSJ devices that we stripped from leftover C2 VHF Reflector kits that were to have been scrapped. They were supplied by Holland with our private label on them. You have to call in to order them.
Thank you for the detailed clarification; glad that Antennas Direct will continue to stock the UHF/VHF combiner in the enclosure; a vital device that is superior to the Stellar Labs UVSJ.
Quote:
My boss understands perfectly what his obligations are. SKUs that are not earning their keep get pruned and eliminated from the product lineup. We do not pretend to be a one-stop shop for everything antenna related, our product lineup is focused on those items that sell in volume with sufficient margin so as to support all of the obligations of the company including my personal favorite, my paycheck. I happen to be in favor of that priority.
Understood
Quote:
It's good to see that SS has those back in stock. They were out last year and, when I spoke to them, they weren't sure they could find any remaining inventory somewhere. I finally found a couple on ebay that I needed for an experimental setup. They will indeed work well for suppressing the local FM station and, as suggested, it will probably require two of them to be stacked to provide enough FM signal reduction.
Thank you for the detailed background information. The choices are: Get 'em while you can, buy an expensive FM filter from Tin Lee, or make your own high-pass filter in an empty splitter enclosure.

rabbit73 9-Sep-2018 2:09 AM
4 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeAZ (Post 60243)
OK Guys, rant and rebuttals aside, I want to draw your attention to the TV Fool
report that indicates KVOA, NBC 4 Tucson, on Rf 23. The Tucson stations on Mt.
Bigelow appear unrecoverable in the report yet they do manage to be received
in Ftn. Hills. My "take" on this is that the TV Fool report is erroneous. The Phoenix
stations are over-represented and the Tucson stations under represented.
Since the Tucson stations are being received consistently, how can this be tropo?
Your thoughts???
Yes, Joe; the report makes it look like Phoenix channels will be easy to receive and the Tucson channels will be impossible to receive.

It is well known that the reports are much less accurate for 1Edge and 2Edge signals than for LOS signals because of limitations in the software used to generate the reports. This is an extract of the report:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...2&d=1536461615

For comparison I did a rabbitears.info report based on my estimate of his location:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...9&d=1536458700

Next, I did terrain profiles of the two channels:

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...0&d=1536458744

http://forum.tvfool.com/attachment.p...1&d=1536458773

In the KTVK terrain profile the signal grazes the surface just before the receiving antenna, which causes a lot of scattering of the signal much like multipath. Raising the antenna helps a lot to reduce the scattering received and helps the signals clear the neighbor's house.

The KVOA signal only has to make it over one peak.

My theory to explain the paradox consists of two parts:

1. The KTVK signal is deflected from its path to the receiving antenna by a temperature inversion that is formed in the terrain bowl between the transmitter and the first peak.
2. The KVOA signal enters a high altitude duct because the transmitting antenna is at a high altitude. This duct, acting like permanent Tropo, carries the weaker KVOA signal much further, before refraction bends it down to the receiving antenna.

My advice is to raise the antenna as high as possible, add a preamp, and insert an FM filter between the antenna and the preamp. The coax must be grounded with a grounding block connected to the house electrical system ground. If 12 is still a problem, suspect local electrical interference.

rabbit73 10-Sep-2018 2:06 AM
From niv by PM:

Quote:
Originally Posted by niv
Wow, didn't see the post that Joe put up for me. I wish I could participate. Here is a clean link to my report

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...90386d3aea6f11

The address you used was in the neighborhood but a little ways away. Yes the PA is Juice. I guess Lime is as type of juice. I haven't been able to read the thread in depth, will be doing that first thing tomorrow morning. Thought the FM trap was interesting. Sounds like I might ought to put the Lime/Lemon/Juice back in. I did some home run, cable upgrades today from DA to mission critical locations. Channel 3 (24) came back so it made a difference.

Here is the connection diagram

Without PA
7698 - coax RG6 50' DA
A. coax RG6 37' dual splitter to Hopper & LG TV
B. coax RG6 23' SiliconDust HDHomeRun Extend
C,D,E,F doesn't matter

With PA
7698 - coax RG6 3' - PA - coax RG6 50' - PowerInserter - Attenuator - DA. I have the Power/Attenuator/DA connection with double female connectors so no cable between them.

I don't have a ground block, sounds like I should have one. Should that be on the tower ground or the home ground. The tower has it's own ground stake.

I was planning on putting the antenna back up this week but will hold off to try out some of the suggestions coming. THANK YOU FOR YOUR INPUT. Please give the others my thanks and tell them I'm now aware of the thread, I'm reading and plan on following suggestions.
Thank you for the additional information.

I think the coax should be grounded with a grounding block connected to the house electrical system ground for electrical safety and to help reject interference.

Please let me know if you can see the images I posted: a map in post #2 and 2 reports and 2 terrain profiles in post #9. In the past, a poster who was not yet able to post could not see images derived from an attachment. If you can't see them, I can show them another way using my image host.

In your case, you need to do all of the modifications suggested for optimum results. A preamp is needed because your signals are weak, an FM filter is needed to reduce FM interference, and grounding the coax is needed to reject interference. If you leave any one of them out, you reduce your chances for improved reception.

You mention an attenuator after the power inserter. How many dB is it and why is it there?

A corrected FM report shows KHOT FM at -14.0 dBm instead of -13.7 dBm; still very strong.
http://www.fmfool.com/modeling/tmp/6...2/Radar-FM.png

JoeAZ 10-Sep-2018 1:49 PM
Rabbit73, AdTech and others, thanks so much for your
help. It is ALWAYS appreciated, even if we should
disagree.

ADTech 10-Sep-2018 4:01 PM
Quote:
even if we should disagree.
Hey, there are usually more ways than one to "skin a cat", provided you can catch it, of course... ;)

rabbit73 11-Sep-2018 1:36 AM
From niv by PM:

Quote:
Originally Posted by niv
No, I cannot see the pictures, I cannot subscribe to the thread, I do not receive notification of private messages, I’ve been banished to the bad lands. :-) But I am checking regularly.

Results so far. I don’t have a real good way to measure signal strength. I have an EyeTV hybrid module that I can plug into my laptop which gives a separate quality and strength reading. How accurate it is . . . who knows? The LG TV has the most sensitive tuner so I can compare some results with that. The upgraded cable run to the LG TV / Hooper OTA tuner on one and the Silicon Dust tuner on the other brought flakey 5 (17) to a more stable level on all and brought Tucson 4 (23) from very flaky to just flaky on all. LG TV now picks up 3 (24) which gets lost along with 12 when the antenna is at the lower height, none of the others pickup 3 (24). This morning prior to installing the grounding block 3 (24) on the LG was unwatchable, breaking up all over the place. With the grounding block just occasional tearing of the picture so improvement there. I put the PA back on line. 3 (24) has gone away on the LG, 5 (17) becomes marginal on Hopper OTA and Silicon Dust Tuner.

I had put the attenuator in the first PA setup because somewhere I had read (???) that with an attenuator you could find the sweet spot between boosted signal and input overload so I had put it in thinking I might be able to dial in the signal. It can go from 0 - 20 db. I don’t have it in at the moment. Also I have 5 (17) up on my computer screen via the Silicon Dust tuner and the PA has turned it into a flakey condition. It comes and goes.

Current config 7698 - 3’ cable - PA - 50’ cable - Power Inserter/Ground block/DA all tethered together, no cables between.

I have a Channel Plus Low Pass Filter LPF-380 Bandpass 0-380 MHz. Will that do anything for the FM trap? I suspect it would be the opposite of what I'm looking for. If not I’ll order the suggested FM trap setup from Solid Signals.

ADTech made the suggestion of moving the tower which is not an option. I’m on a hill, the tower is at the highest point on the hill. Other tower locations would move it down the hill and the houses across the street are 2 story houses which would be a worse. Current blocking house is 1 story. Till the house was built I had a nice window to South Mountain.

He also Mentioned not being impressed with the DA’s maximum input power. That could be why some channels are dropping off with the PA in line. What would be a good DA for this situation?

As was before I think I am getting less performance on the system with the PA in place. Channel 12 is no where to be seen but I don’t expect to see it until the antenna is raised to it’s full height. All experimenting will be done at the 33’ height because it is a monumental task to raise the antenna. Once it’s up, it’s staying up, I’m getting too old for this. :-)

The most important device would be the Silicon Dust tuner. That is what would be recorded and the Plex DVR removes commercials. 2nd in line would be the Hopper OTA, being a recording backup with the LG TV coming in 3rd. I just bypassed the DA and went directly from the Antenna to the Silicon Dust tuner with the same result as going through the DA so I’m not sure that input overload would be the answer to the reduced performance with the PA in.

I hope I’m not rambling here, I’m just thinking of things to try as I type. I will wait to see if the filter that I have is useful. I actually thought I might have an FM trap which is how I found the Low Pass Filter when I was rummaging through the draws. Will order if what I have isn’t useful.

Thanks again.
I will try to redo the photos so that you can see them.

ADTech 11-Sep-2018 3:33 PM
Quote:
I have a Channel Plus Low Pass Filter LPF-380 Bandpass 0-380 MHz. Will that do anything for the FM trap?
No. That LPF will wipe out ALL of your UHF reception.
Quote:
What would be a good DA for this situation?
Unless you have an extraordinary signal distribution system with lots of losses, avoid adding a DA and use a passive splitter instead with the mast-mounted PA.


I'd really start with the FM trap (or HLSJs) on the input of the Juice. For convenience, I'd also leave the PA at the base of the tower since I'm also getting too old to climb ladders unnecessarily. The insertion loss of that downlead prior to the amp would just be a necessary evil that could be later addressed when details are finally ironed out.



Note: I've turned off my private messaging again due to a persistent spammer.

rabbit73 11-Sep-2018 5:08 PM
From niv by PM:

Quote:
Originally Posted by niv
No, I cannot see the pictures, I cannot subscribe to the thread, I do not receive notification of private messages, I’ve been banished to the bad lands. :-) But I am checking regularly.
Here are the pictures again, using links from my image host; I hope you can see them:

This map is in post #2:

https://i.imgur.com/Q7tKKF7.jpg

These two report images are in post #9:

https://i.imgur.com/tOsB2Pd.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/HbF40QQ.jpg

and these two terrain profiles are also in post #9:

https://i.imgur.com/zbTotBR.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/U1CyUC9.jpg

and one new one:

https://i.imgur.com/d7MokZo.jpg

Can you see them now, niv?

rabbit73 11-Sep-2018 5:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by niv
OK, Solid Signals ridiculous pricing on shipping just cost them a sale. $9 shipping for a $6 sale. I balked at the $8.99 shipping for the $8.99 variable attenuator but when I ended up buying the Juice PA I could just add the attenuator on for the same $8.99 shipping. They just sent it out in a padded bag that would be $4.95 tops in shipping so that's a hefty handling fee. Makes me think twice about buying anything from Solid Signals. I've got a Trisonic FM Trap coming in from Ebay, should be in by Monday. Even found a $5 off coupon so whole thing came out to $8.30. What a deal :-) ...........after seeing the picture on eBay I know I've got one of these kicking around. You can never find things when you're looking for them. :-)
I don't have the specs for the Trisonic FM Trap; hope it works as well as the HLSJ.

rabbit73 11-Sep-2018 10:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by niv
Yes that is my location and yes you can post it in the thread. Thanks
Thank you for your permission; nice tower.

https://i.imgur.com/cRvM5nC.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/crhaqzR.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/RortvGU.jpg

rabbit73 12-Sep-2018 1:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by niv
Yes now I can see the pictures! The tower in 2011 looks a little on the low side. I don’t remember when, apparently after 2011, at the top of the tower section is a 30’ 3 part telescoping mast. The bottom section lowers down into the tower via a crank and pulley system. Right now the antenna is just above the top of the tower.

I don’t have a good tool for measuring the signal, I get conflicting data. There are 6 cable runs in the house going to 4 TV’s, 1 tuner and a FM radio. Yes FM comes off of the 7698. The FM trap is due in on Friday. I will be able to find out very quickly if it works. There are 2 primary runs. Most important one is a 23’ home run to the Silicon Dust Tuner (SDT). Then theres a 37’ run to a dual splitter -3.5db per leg that feeds LG TV and Dish Hopper OTA tuner. Other 4 runs are in the doesn’t really matter category.

On the SDT I’ve tried with no PA through the DA, with PA through DA, with PA no DA no splitter, then through unbalanced 3 way splitter on both the 3.5 & 7 leg. All 3 legs are terminated so there are no termination issues. Ch 5 (17) CBS is the most problematic of the stations coming in, it comes and goes. (Ch 12 & 3 (24) don’t come in at current height) It’s best performance is with no PA through the DA. All this is at 33’ I guess everything changes at 58’ but I’m trying to get the best performance possible before putting it back up..
Thank you for the additional information. Looking forward to your next test results.

Glad that you can now see the photos.

rabbit73 13-Sep-2018 10:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by niv
Here are the results of todays experimentation. I realigned the antenna to match up with the SignalLines picture. I have to note, any time I work on the tower with the mast down I have a greater appreciation of ballerinas. There is no ladder involved, I climb the tower. I have a safety belt so I'm strapped in. Mast down, I cannot get my foot in so I'm always on my toes. When I come down off the tower my calves are screaming. :-) My prior alinement was a degree or two off. That came up with some interesting results.

All results have the PA on line. I might experiment tomorrow with it off line. Going through the DA to the SDT Ch 3 (24) was there, Ch 5 (16) went away, opposite of before. All others (8,10, 15, 45, 61) were there.

Now the starling results. Just for grins I checked out the LG TV. 3, 5, 8, 10, 15, 45, 61 were all there, AND SO WAS 12!!!! Barely but I never expected to see it. Trying to measure it is what drives me up a wall. The LG has a signal meter. Shows Strength and Quality. Through the DA S 54 Q 17-19; Direct from antenna S 54 Q 20-32; Splitter 3.5 leg S 54 Q 19-25; 7.0 leg S 54 Q 20-38. Q readings are always bouncing all over the place. S pretty much stayed at 54 occasionally going to 55 no matter how the signal was being provided. It would seem that the Q would drop when I went from the 3.5 leg to the 7 leg. I suppose it’s all atmospherics, not being able to test all at the same time.

The Hopper OTA Tuner there was no 3, 5, & 12. Then I tried a direct antenna feed to the SDT and both 3 and 5 were gone. I’ve gone back to my default going through the DA until the next round of tests. Any suggestions on what to try?
Quote:
Ch 5 (16) went away
KPHO, virtual channel 5.1, is real channel 17, isn't? If you are going to use the virtual channel number, please use the decimal form to avoid confusion.
Quote:
I suppose it’s all atmospherics, not being able to test all at the same time.
That's true; OTA signals are constantly changing.

Sounds like the LG has the best tuner.

rabbit73 13-Sep-2018 10:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by niv
Took the PA off line. No Channel 12 on LG. Got 3 but no 5 on SDT but 3 very flakey through DA. No 3 or 5 straight from antenna so didn't bother to try through splitter. First time I've seen positive result from PA (or lack of PA showing negative results, either or :-) Also found a signal strength meter on the SDT. Will put the PA back on line tomorrow when I put the FM trap on. I've included a url to a pic of the antenna fins. Should they be horizontal or vertical or does it matter. Right now they're every which way. Hopefully the url works https://tinyurl.com/y8c8onww
These fins:

https://i.imgur.com/725Q3OB.jpg

They look OK to me, but what are these extra wires? Are they connected to the coax downlead for the antenna?


https://i.imgur.com/ku2YPOX.jpg

rabbit73 14-Sep-2018 7:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by niv
Yes the arrows are pointing to the fins I was talking about.

No the extra wire is not attached to the coax downlead. I forget exactly what happened, probably a bad wind storm, I had to take the antenna down to straighten it out. That is the line that goes between the UHF and VHF sections of the antenna. I wasn't happy with the contact it was making so I put an additional bridge wire across that connecting point to insure contact was being made. Could that be a problem?
Yes, it could be a problem. The performance of the antenna is based on the diameter and spacing of the two wires that go from the UHF section to the CB-8269 black housing. It probably wouldn't be a problem if it was DC current, but those wires are for RF. The diameter and spacing of the wires determine the impedance of that transmission line, but it is difficult for me to predict how much difference it would make.

I don't like the way the forks on the circuit board make contact with the wires either; I consider it a design weakness of an otherwise good antenna. Most users don't have a problem with that type of connection, but some (like Nascarken) connect a separate balun to each section of the antenna and use an external UVSJ to combine the sections or separate feedlines from each balun and an A/B switch.
https://www.google.com/search?ei=IQW...10.K7IXGBq_dDQ

Winegard has a video to troubleshoot the CB-8269.
http://www.winegard.com/support
scroll down to:
How To Troubleshoot a Winegard Antenna Cartridge Housing

You can buy a replacement CB-8269 housing.

https://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=cb-8269

https://www.amazon.com/Winegard-CB-8.../dp/B003H2G5ZM

http://www.winegarddirect.com/viewit...(CB8269)&post=

https://i.imgur.com/mN07nXU.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/WEqjATF.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/9dU9hYm.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Z0i6Rem.jpg

rabbit73 14-Sep-2018 8:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by niv
I’m sure most of the east coast is going to be affected by Florence. Hopefully you will be minimally impacted. . .

I’m remembering about my wire job after looking up the the antenna on Amazon and seeing a comment about a design flaw in the antenna. About 3 years ago the antenna was blown down because a roofer undid a guy wire and of course shortly there after a storm blew in from that direction taking it down. I had gone through a bad 3 year period, this was the 3rd time in that period it had gone down. I put it back up but about 3 or 4 feet lower. Ch 12.1 went away, I wasn’t relying on the antenna so I didn’t do much about it. With the Rio Olympics approaching I got serious about getting 12.1 back (NBC) I did things like replace the spliced coax with a home run lead. A storm had rearranged the elements so I took the opportunity to take the antenna off the mast and check it out, tightening things etc.

The antenna has a squirrley bare metal line on either side that goes through the black plastic downlead box. It is very difficult to get it to fit right even when it was brand new. It also connects front and back sections of the antenna. Somehow I managed to mangal the junction between sections which wasn’t hard to do the way it is constructed. I put an addition wire between the joint just to make sure there is a good connection between the 2 sections. It was just before the Olympics that I remembered that it wasn’t as high as it had been prior to it being blown down. Put it back up to full height and was able to watch Rio via OTA rather than the highly compressed Dish locals.

If this somehow comprises the effectiveness of the antenna I will replace the antenna. For me to succeed in this endeavor I must be able to reliably receive 3.1, 5.1, 8.1, 10.1, 12.1, 15.1, 45.1 & 61.1 on both the SDT and the Hopper OTA tuner.

Would eliminating the 3 foot cable from the antenna to the PA have any impact? I could tether the FM trap and the PA directly to the antenna, putting a spacer on the other side of the PA and secure it to the under carriage of the antenna. Downside would be the connectors of the PA would be facing upwards. I know you want to have drip loops in cables. The Juice PA looks to be sealed pretty well and we have thus far thad 5.5 inches of rain (2.6 in Aug) this year and don’t anticipate much more (maybe a little in Dec) for the rest of the year. Rain isn’t a problem factor in Phoenix.

FM trap works well. I first put it in at the DA level, antenna directly to FM receiver feed. When from great FM reception to no FM reception. Then put the PA back on line with the FM trap in front of it. Going through the DA, trusty LG on 12.1 results were the same as without the trap. (s=signal strength Q=quality) S-54 Q 19-21. THEN it started swinging wildly. Q when from 2 - 96. S more stable going between 54 - 56. Time was just before noon. Didn’t get those wild swings prior to the FM trap.

On the SDT No 3.1 S-91 Q-0 or 5.1 S-81 Q-0. I don’t want to scan for 12.1 because I might lose access to checking 3.1 & 5.1.

Picture links will show what I mean by tether, Trap is tethered to the antenna. Also closeup of my wire job.

https://tinyurl.com/ydh7r4rc
https://tinyurl.com/ydam6g9v
Quote:
Would eliminating the 3 foot cable from the antenna to the PA have any impact? I could tether the FM trap and the PA directly to the antenna, putting a spacer on the other side of the PA and secure it to the under carriage of the antenna.
https://i.imgur.com/PZa2nLF.jpg

Either way will work. There is very little loss in a short length of coax; a small fraction of a dB. Mechanical and weatherproofing considerations should determine which way to do it.

Quote:
I put an addition wire between the joint just to make sure there is a good connection between the 2 sections.
https://i.imgur.com/obx0vSR.jpg

If you are saying that you connected the UHF and VHF sections of the antenna together with that wire, it's a bad idea that will ruin the performance of the antenna. The VHF section of the antenna will pick up UHF signals that will interfere with the UHF signals from the UHF section. You are defeating the purpose of the UVSJ (UHF/VHF Separator-Joiner) in the CB-8269.

rabbit73 15-Sep-2018 7:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by niv
OK, we switched to page 2, didn’t notice that with my last post. Went to the bottom of the page 1 and saw nothing new, my wife was waiting for me so I quickly pasted my PM not noticing we’d turned another page. :-)

I don’t think there is anything wrong with the cartridge. It’s a bear to setup but I’m pretty sure it is properly seated. I have an extra one left over from the antenna that the roofer took down. I’m a pack rat and saved it. I did not bridge anything on the antenna that wasn’t already bridged. The knuckle you are seeing in the picture is part of the antenna, my only addition is the wire going across it with black tape on either end. Like you said earlier it would be good for a DC situation but it’s a RF situation which I know little about.
It's not clear to me what that extra wire is bridging. I only know that any extra wire might reduce the performance of the antenna.
Quote:
It is curious that 3.1 (real 24) and 5.1 (real 17) are under performing while 15.1, (shows as weak on hopper OTA) 45.1(real 26) and 61.1 (real 49) are working just fine. But as I said I know little about RF. Try the by, 4.1 Tucson has gone away since the antenna realignment. The LG tuner is great, everything is coming in with 12.1 tearing a bit. Both mission critical tuners 3.1, 5.1, 12.1 are MIA in all situations. I’ve gone through the DA and gone straight from the antenna to each device (Hooper & LG are going through a dual splitter at their end). Maybe the mangled wires just outside of the CB-8269 Cartridge is a problem?

If I were to replace the antenna what is the best one to replace it with? Another HD7698P (although I really don’t like the way it’s put together), Channel Master 3671? Does any one know anything about the Denny’s HD stacker?

https://tinyurl.com/lw72wnh

It looks kind of interesting, they do a comparison with 19 other antennas

https://tinyurl.com/y73ucu2n

But then again it’s their marketing so . . .
Yes, Denny is good at marketing. I don't have any experience with his Stacker and the reports are mixed. Some users like it, others not.

You could get another 7698; you are familiar with its quirks.

The Channel Master 3671 is discontinued, but there are a few left. In its day it was popular, but it is very wide because it covers VHF-Low channels 2-6.

The current CM UHF/VHF-High equivalent to the 7698 is the Digital Advantage 100, CM-2020, but the specs list the gain less than the 7698.

Another alternative would be separate UHF and VHF antennas, like the Antennas Direct 91XG for UHF and the Stellar Labs 30-2476 for VHF-High.
Quote:
I know that everything gets stronger at 58’. In the past all channels come in but I want to get the best going at 33’ so that everything is better at 58’. I don't expect to see 12.1, I'm amazed that it comes in on the LG. But II'd like to see 3.1 & 5.1. All current reading are with the PA. I have seen 5.1 on the SDT recording 60 minutes and Salvation weekly since getting it about a month ago, without the PA. Some recordings have had breakups, some perfect.

rabbit73 17-Sep-2018 1:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by niv
Atmospherics must have been really good last night for the LGTV. All channels were coming in trouble free even 12.1. I was watching 2 football games on 10.1 & 15.1. When there was commercials on both at the same time (more often then you'd think) I'd check out all the other channels. No tearing on any channel. The SDT tuner Channel 3.1 was stable 5.1 was flakey, no 12.1. I was able to scan and add 3.1 to the Hopper OTA tuner but not 5.1.

I like the dual antenna idea. Is the Stellar Labs 30-2476 secs as good or better then the VHF section of the 7698?
Many say that it is just as good. The instruction sheet says 10 to 14 dB.
https://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/...vhf/dp/71Y5462

http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/23...426.1504358738

https://www.satelliteguys.us/xen/thr...ntenna.373747/

Quote:
The only spec on the 30-2476 I read where someone said that it had a maybe useful UHF activity. Would that be a problem or would the combiner take that out.
It does have some useful UHF gain, but you want the UHF/VHF combiner (UVSJ) to remove the UHF signals from the VHF antenna so that they do not interfere with the UHF signals from the UHF antenna.
Quote:
Could I use my Channel Plus LPF-380 Low Pass filter 0-380 MHZ to take out the UHF signals before the combiner? Or would there be another filter I should put on along with the FM Trap?
You could insert the CP LPF-380, but it is not necessary because the UVSJ will remove the UHF signals from the VHF antenna.

Quote:
Watching the Y-Tube video on trouble shooting the 7698 they were taking about tying into the VHF section with a 300-75 transformer. If the Stellar Labs Antenna isn't as strong as the VHF section of the 7698 maybe I could do that.
The purpose of showing the balun transformer clipped to the wires of each section of the antenna in the troubleshooting video was only a temporary test to be certain that each section of the antenna is working OK before being combined.
Quote:
The antenna realignment has done wonders for the 12.1 reception, never seen at 33' before and perfect on the LGTV last night. But 3.1 & 5.1 have been problematic where they hadn't been at the old location. Black line in the attached picture is the old path. Is this a better path for the UHF stations or is there another better path that is different than the VHF path? That would make the dual antennas a really good idea.
https://tinyurl.com/ya5bvex4
That link doesn't work; it takes me to my Amazon album, which I don't have. Anyway, the best path is the one that gives the best signals. The path for your signals can get skewed because the signals are scattered by the rough terrain.
Quote:
If I were to do this what combiner would you suggest?
My first choice would be the Antennas Direct UNF/VHF combiner because it has low loss and a plastic housing for protection from the weather. It is in short supply:
https://www.antennasdirect.com/store..._combiner.html
ADTech says they will have some more soon.

The Radio Shack UVSJ is good, but it doesn't have a housing:
https://www.radioshack.com/products/...itter-combiner

Avoid the Stellar Labs 33-2230, it isn't as good; higher losses.
Quote:
How much separation should there be between antennas? Since height has been a factor with 12.1 I'd think I'd have the VHF on top.
About 3 to 5 feet is usually enough.

https://www.tonercable.com/pdf/antenna.pdf

https://i.imgur.com/iUAzjxe.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/J28IV3Y.jpg

Quote:
I know that the cable length from both antennas to the combiner should be the same.
Not true; it is only necessary when two identical antennas (2 UHF or 2 VHF) aimed in the same direction are being combined with a splitter in reverse.
Quote:
This is an interesting idea if having the antennas pointed in slightly different direction would improve results.
The "right" way is the way that works the best.

rabbit73 17-Sep-2018 5:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by niv
See if this link works for the paths picture.

https://tinyurl.com/y93d59y3

Does it matter which antenna is on top?
The link works fine.

https://i.imgur.com/Quz0AdL.jpg

Most people put the UHF on top because VHF signals can bend down a little better in rough terrain, but you can do it the way you want.

rabbit73 17-Sep-2018 8:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by niv
Is the only difference between the Antennas Direct and the Radio Shack UVSJ the plastic housing or is there a performance difference also?
They both perform well, based on the samples I tested. I ordered two of the AD UVSJs and one had the label upside down, but it worked OK. (Monday morning production)

https://i.imgur.com/RoTfpom.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/L21AJOs.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Yo1aFNF.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/9AIJgp3.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/6ArtK0x.jpg

Quote:
I'd end up taking the Antennas Direct UVSJ out of the box because I'm thinking of putting the FM Trap, PA, UVSJ and anything else that might get added into my own box. That way I can tie everything together with joiners instead of having all sorts of cable lengths up there. It would be protected from our biblical rain amounts but more importantly from our blaring sun. I'm looking at possibly adding a little solar panel to drive a vent fan.

I'm waiting to hear from Denny, I shot him a note to see what his input would be. The more I think of the separate UHF/VHF antenna's the more I like the idea. 12.1 is still the weakest signal coming in and has been affected by height in the past so I would probably but the VHF on top. Seems 5.1 (24) is the weakest of the UHF. Is the Red line in the signal path picture the path for 12.1 or South Mountain?
The red line is an approximation based on where thre green line crosses the house across the street.
Quote:
Is there a separate path for 5.1?

I'm thinking I'd point VHF to 12.1 and UHF to 5.1. I don't know how those path images were generated.
I don't see a 5.1 (24), but I do see a 3.1 (24) and a 5.1 (17). Please use the callsign.

https://i.imgur.com/tOsB2Pd.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/HbF40QQ.jpg

rabbit73 17-Sep-2018 10:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by niv
Man, I don't see why I have soooo much trouble keeping the damn channel numbers straight. :-(

Point UHF to 5.1 (17) CBS KPHO-DT
Point VHF to 12.1 (12) NBC KPNZ-DT

Maybe that's why I have so much trouble getting this to work. The mind is a terrible thing to waste :-)

Is the red line going back to the 12.1 transmitter or just to South Mountain (antenna farm)?
Thank you for the callsigns. NBC is KPNX.

The main purpose of the red line is to show in an oblique "birds-eye" view where the signals from the SW cross the house across the street to help you with aiming.

https://i.imgur.com/RortvGU.jpg

I will try to show you the signal lines another way, but it will take me a while to figure it out.

rabbit73 18-Sep-2018 1:21 AM
Here are the signal lines for KPNX and KPHO;

https://i.imgur.com/K582Uzp.jpg

changing scale to zoom in on signal lines:

https://i.imgur.com/9HjBgfY.jpg

the two transmitters are very close together:

https://i.imgur.com/nNsJ8Ld.jpg

The above signal lines do not agree with the great difference you show between the green and black lines.

https://i.imgur.com/Quz0AdL.jpg

It is possible that the transmitted signal path can be scattered and changed by the rough terrain.

https://i.imgur.com/fsvRisP.jpg

so let the tuner decide what is the best aim for a signal.

Nascarken 18-Sep-2018 2:44 PM
Yes the seller's LAB antennas for hi vhf!!are kik ass when installing with one feed line
But if you do decide to go with that and the HDB91,on one feed line
Start with a spacing of about 31\2 ft 2, people one at the tv sets and one on the roof
To adjust the WITH between the two antennas and I have found out that you use
One hi vhf channel on a tv broadcasting tower's that are like about 50miles away
And the same for the HDB91,find the uhf,channel that is the same distance away.
And tune up the antennas by using your tv signal strength metter.and picture,for
Best results good luck with your antenna set-up!!!

rabbit73 18-Sep-2018 10:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by niv
The black line in the picture of post #25 is a result one guy on the TV, one guy moving the mast. We did that (my neighbor and I) a long time ago. The green line is where it is now which is producing results for 12.1 but the UHF’s seem to have been reduced. I’ve pretty much decided to go with the two antennas. I’ll start with the VHF on green and the UHF on black and go from there. A tool that I didn’t have then is the SDT tuner which is on the network. I can bring my phone up to the antenna and have eyes on the tuners signal strength meter which will make tuning much easier.
Signal strength is certainly important, but you want the maximum signal quality and 100% symbol quality.

Quote:
I’ll order all this stuff today or tomorrow, hopefully get it in next week for low altitude tuning and then get it back up to full height by the end of the month.

Thank you for all the help and invaluable information. Once it’s up and going (if I don’t have any more questions) I’ll get back to you with the results and pictures.
Thank you for the update.

Good luck with your project. I hope that you will see an improvement in reception.

Best regards,
rabbit

rabbit73 21-Sep-2018 12:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by niv
OK, everything is ordered, the last item is due on Tues the 25th. I did think of one more question. Should the antennas be level, tilted up or tilted down? When I put the current antenna up I did so with a level. Looking at it now, it looks like the front end is sagging down a little. Long view, it looks like it's level at the attachment point on the mast. Could be the way the mast is seated cranked down in the tower also.
Ordinarily, the antenna boom should be level, but at some locations reception is improved by tilting the front end up and even less often tilting the front end down.

Tilting the front end up sometimes helps if there is a hill in front of the antenna in the signal path close to your location.

Tilting the front end down is used when the ground in front of the antenna slopes down away from you. The antenna is mounted close to the earth and the antenna picks up the signal reflected from the slope.

Both the 30-2476 and the HDB91X have a tilt adjustment.

Nascarken 22-Sep-2018 11:49 PM
Tilting the antenna fine tunel!!
 
:cool:
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 (Post 60320)
Ordinarily, the antenna boom should be level, but at some locations reception is improved by tilting the front end up and even less often tilting the front end down.

Tilting the front end up sometimes helps if there is a hill in front of the antenna in the signal path close to your location.

Tilting the front end down is used when the ground in front of the antenna slopes down away from you. The antenna is mounted close to the earth and the antenna picks up the signal reflected from the slope.

Both the 30-2476 and the HDB91X have a tilt adjustment.
When fine tuning with the tilt find your far away tower's first ??
It will take too person and 2 cell phone one on the roof at the tilt feature
Why the other person is looking at the pictures and the SIGNAL strength master for best results ???

rabbit73 26-Sep-2018 10:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by niv
I’m very happy with the results so far. All channels are now showing up on the SDT tuner. 12.1 is no longer the weak channel on the list. It’s interesting at the different paths that the UHF and VHF antennas are taking. So far mast is not extended. I might not need to go up to the full 58’. I’ve attached photos.

I’m assuming that since my utility box housing the PA & signal combiner is metal and everything is metal on metal I don’t need to be running grounding wires to the grounding posts on the PA and combiner. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

It’s going to take me a day or two to recover from spending the morning hanging off of the tower. If anyone sees any glaring errors in my setup please let me know. After a couple days of testing I’ll put it back to full height. Pardon the pictures, I was basically shooting blindly not being able to see the phone screen in the bright sun light.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6wkj67nm5z...round.JPG?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/v902pkqjht5ppe6/Roof.JPG?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/30puzth8v810diq/box.JPG?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/tg7vj4uhjs...d_box.JPG?dl=0
Thank you for the report and the photos. Glad you are happy with the results.

If the mast is grounded and the coax shield is grounded, that should be sufficient.

https://i.imgur.com/STyUYvg.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/NiKlkUV.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/rMrOXZ3.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/VcPK22L.jpg

Good job, niv!

JoeAZ 27-Sep-2018 1:05 PM
Wonderful, Great News!!!!!

rabbit73 5-Oct-2018 2:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by niv
Mission Accomplished! I delayed extending the mast because of hurricane Rosa remnants due to pass through the Phoenix area. Turned into 2 days of gentle rain unlike the very active monsoon season we had this year. The News makes it sound like Phoenix is flooding, I think one neighborhood had the sewers back up because they aren’t used to getting 2 inches of rain so every news crew descended on that location :-)

All tuners are getting good strong signals, even the crapy Vizio TV tuners are picking up all channels, something I wasn’t really expecting. Height is 52’, went from the piano wire type guy wires to a vinyl rope which is braided wire incased in plastic. It was a challenge finding something to cut it so I’m not worried about the antenna blowing down.

Thank you to everyone who helped with the much needed advice. Especially rabbit73 who has been relaying my messages. I wish I could participate in the forum directly, being that it’s going on 3 months now waiting on activation I don’t guess that is going to happen.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/sz73dxx7fw..._3430.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/29zfoupmmw..._3431.jpg?dl=0
https://i.imgur.com/Cj29hmD.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/J2MQMk2.jpg

Thank you for the update and the photos. Looking good, niv!

jrgagne99 5-Oct-2018 3:47 PM
What a great looking setup NIV! It is interesting that your directions for UHF and VHF are different, but who can argue with results?

Hopefully you get long life out of those mast-mounted components. When I mounted my antennas up in a 50' tree-top, i chose to run separate downleads to the base of the tree where it do the combining and amplification, for easy replacement in case of failure. But it looks like your mast is relatively easy to lower and make adjustments to signal conditioning equipment if necessary.


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